Talk:Magi

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Contents 1 Copied from talk:Mage 1.1 Majoos reference 1.2 Mage aand Magi 1.3 Errors? 2 2004 commments 3 Is this related to the word Mage ? 4 Just how many were there? 5 Jehovah Witnesses and magi 6 Anime Reference? 7 Accuracy issue 8 Moving some remarks 9 Popular Culture section at the end 10 Why "Three" Wise Men? 11 duplication 12 Deletion of Reference to The Mummy 13 In search of the birth of Jesus: the real journey of the magi. 14 Chrono Trigger 15 Why the "cleanup" tag 16 Removed the Fowles novel reference from "fictional magi" section 17 Mage: The Ascension 18 Ihabitants of Persia 19 Modern Usage 20 Magi/Biblica magi: Proposed merger 21 boring 22 Modern Usage? 23 References 24 Occultism 25 Questionable sentence 26 Magi or wisemen.

[edit] Copied from talk:Mage

[edit] Majoos reference

The "Majoos" article reference given in the external links was incorrectly listed as Persian, when it is in fact Urdu. I have corrected this, but there should probably a genuinely Persian link included there as well.

[edit] Mage aand Magi

I had always believed that the singular of Magi was Mage. Can anyone confirm or deny this? (Also cross posting to Talk:Magus)

• Strictly speaking, the singluar of 'magi' is 'magus' (per Latin grammar). The plural of 'mage' is 'mages' (per English grammar). Radiant_* 11:37, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

I am wondering if magi/magus should be capitalized when used? Rnyediva 22:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Errors?

[Comment below moved from article, originally by 207.108.246.48 - RedWordSmith 17:09, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)]

(whoever wrote this is wrong. The term Mage is a short version of the word Magius 'In Latin meaning: One connected to the magic.' I myself feel insulted by this writers arrogance. The magic holds this Universe together and the God's only know where we would be without it. Mages are mearly those who have the metality, open-mindedness, and physical capability to weild it to one degree or another. The Four Orders (Darkness: Earth, Light: Water, Nuetriality: Fire, and the Grey: Air) existed many years ago and it is said will rise again. Note that this is only an opinion based on my own experience, knowledge, and being of the Gey myself. Note also that people should not go off a single religous book when there are hundreds out there that are even older then the ones listed in the previous writings. To say that these religouns are wrong, or false, is to be ignorant and saying that the Ancestors (founders of the world, and the most connected to the gods) of this world were wrong. Sorry if I got a little off the subject but I was trying to prove a point that made me feel as starongly as I do.)

(ANOTHER ERROR) Zarathustra was a member of the Magian Order. He redefined his beliefs and created the Zorastrian religion. While the Zorastrian faith is an offshoot of the Magian Order, it is incorrect to say that all Magi were Zorastrians.

(CLARIFICATION) The gifts given by the Magi to the baby Jesus were assosciated with the funerary practices. According to Egyptian beliefs, for the spirit of the dead to affect the mortal plane after death, it had to be able to return to its body to sleep at night, and it could then "go forth by day." For the body to be preserved, five things were needed. The first two are common: natron salt found in natural deposits, and strips of linen. These were easily obtained. However, the remaining three items were expensive and rare. These were myrrh, with which the inner wall of the stomach had to be rubbed, frankincense, for fumigating the body, and a piece of gold that had to be placed within the body. The Magi, believed to be of the Zoroastrian offshoot of the Magian Order, brought to Jesus the three items he would need to be mummified upon his death. As this process was only done for those believed to be the children of, or in direct service to, the gods, they were thus acknowledging his being the son of God.

(CLARIFICATION) Some mistakenly claim that Magi did not use magic, and refer back to the fact that the Magi were openly against the use of Sorcery. However, these people fail to realize that Sorcery is only one form of magic. Sorcery is the practice of bringing about supernatural occurances through assosciation with and employment of demonic entities. The Magi believed very strongly in the idea that, upon death, each person was held fully accountable for all of their actions in life. As a result of this belief, they were opposed to any practice which would subjugate the Magi's will, or allow them to act in an inappropriate way through intermediaries. This resulted in Sorcery being banned by the Magian Order. However, other forms of magic were both accepted and promoted by the Magi. Telepathy, for example, was a common practice amongst the Magi. As the people of the time believed that all thought originated from the heart, they referred to telepathy as reading another's heart rather than their mind. The mind, they believed, was useless matter.

[edit] 2004 commments

An anonymous user added what was apparently an external link to a page in Arabic. I set it up in the proper format, but I cannot make head nor tail of it. Can someone verify that this link is pertinent and appropriate? -- Smerdis of Tlön 05:16, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I deleted the irrelevant facts about the video game. The reader does not need to know, and will be confused by telling them the enemy of Magus in some video came is Cyrus. I'm a little skeptical of the video game reference at all but I figure it is better to err on the side of including information. Logicnazi 01:38, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Is this related to the word Mage ?

I had always believed that the singular of Magi was Mage. Can anyone confirm or deny this? (Also cross posting to Talk:Mage)

It is. Mage seems to be used mostly in fantasy writing and RPGing; magus for historical characters. Smerdis of Tlön 23:59, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"Magus" is the singular. The plural of the fantasy "mage" is "mages." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Themill (talk • contribs) 02:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Just how many were there?

Much of the text in this article is coming from the assumption that there were three wise men - but this idea does not come from the biblical texts (I dare you to try and find it! :-) ). Here's some more info from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09527a.htm:

"The Gospel narrative omits to mention the number of the Magi, and there is no certain tradition in this matter. Some Fathers speak of three Magi; they are very likely influenced by the number of gifts. In the Orient, tradition favours twelve. Early Christian art is no consistent witness:

   * a painting in the cemetery of Sts. Peter and Marcellinus shows two;
   * one in the Lateran Museum, three;
   * one in the cemetery of Domitilla, four;
   * a vase in the Kircher Museum, eight (Marucchi, "Eléments d'archéologie chrétienne", Paris, 1899, I 197)."

Most likely this was an entourage of delegates from the Parthian empire, as travel during the period - especially with the valuables they were carrying - would have been dangerous. The number of visitors and purpose for the visit would be one explanation for Herod's reaction in Matthew chapter 2 (ref. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=matthew%202&version=31).

--RMann 23:53, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jehovah Witnesses and magi

The article now says:

Many people think Magus was Daniel of the Hebrew and Christian scriptures.

Three questions:

1. Should this read Daniel of the Hebrew and Christian scriptures was a magus.
2. Or does this Magus have something to do with the Neon Genesis Evangelion stuff right before it?
3. Do Jehovah's Witnesses really believe that the Wise Men mentioned in the Bible were in fact beguiled to the baby Jesus by Satan?

-- Smerdis of Tlön 00:24, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

Question 3 is partly true. Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Mugus were pagan astologers, not wise men. They also think that Jesus was not baby but child of about two years old when the Mugus came to Him, because Herod killed children less than two years old.(Matt. 2:16) See[1]61.22.157.50

Why would Satan want to lead the Magi to Jesus (either newborn or two years old)?

WpZurp 02:38, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

To kill Jesus . Herod thought that he was only king of Jews, but pegan astologers said that there was another king in Jews. (Matt.2:2) Then, Herod was angry and said "Go make a careful search for the young child, and when you have found it report back to me, that I too may go and do it obeisance."(Matt.2:8;NW) In fact, he wanted to find Jesus and kill him. So, God gave warning in dream not to return to Herod.(Matt.2:12) After this, Herod killed all the boys in Jerusalem and in all its districts.(Matt.2:16)If God's angel didn't give warning in Joseph's dream, Jesus was killed like other boys. (Matt.2:13) Then Jehovah's Witnesses think that Satan used astologers and Herod to kill Jesus. Rantaro 13:09, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

How do we get from 144,000 to 8-30? How did we pick these numbers?

144,000 come from Revelation 7:4 and 14:1-4. Rantaro 13:09, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The comment that King belteshazzar wrote part of the book of daniel is new to me and hardly an accepted fact I am removing it.george 22:21, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anime Reference?

Does this article really need a reference to a popular anime series? Seems like an overly geekly to a completely unrelated subject matter.129.42.208.182 21:27, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

No, perhaps not, but it does certainly need a refernece to Chrono Trigger. Magus was a wizard in a cape that seemed to be thwarting you in the beggining of the game. -Myren 26 May 2005

[edit] Accuracy issue

Does the Gospel of Matthew really say that the three wise men from the east were magi? A tradition says they were magi, but is that actually in the gospel? Michael Hardy 03:30, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes; they are called μαγοι in the Greek text of Matthew 2:1. They are not called kings in the Bible, but they are definitely magi. Aland-Black-Martini-Metzger-Wiegren Greek New Testament, ISBN 3438051133 -- Smerdis of Tlön 01:10, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What it DOESN'T say is that there were three of them, but I think someone already mentioned that.

[edit] Moving some remarks

There are certain points in the article on 'Magus' which need explanation. When writing about the historical references to the story of the The Three Magi or The Three Wise Men of the East, the writer explains that 'since the seventh century in Western Europe', the names of the three magi are believed to be 'Caspar, Melchior, and Balthasar' and that 'Syrian Christians call them Larvandad, Hormisdas, and Gushnasaph'. He, then adds 'None of these names is obviously Persian or carries any ascertainable meaning.'

It should be mentioned that many biblical names in the western tradition are complete distorations of the actual names and are influenced not only by translation and typographical mistakes but also by intentional plans to make the religious stories more understandable to certain groups of people. As a result, the best way to decide where these people had come from is to focus on the Syrian names which, in spite of the writer's claims, are obviously Persian.

The first name 'Larvandad' is a combination of 'Lar', which is a region near Tehran, and 'vand' or 'vandad' which is a commoan suffix in middle Persian meaning 'related to' or located in'. 'Vand' is also present in the names of such Iranian locations as 'Damavand', 'Nahavand', 'Alvand', and such names and titles as 'Varjavand' and 'Vandidad'. Alternatively, it might be a combination of 'Larvand' meaning 'the region of Lar' and 'Dad' meaning 'given by'. the latter suffix can also be seen in such Iranian nams as Tirdad, Mehrdad, Bamdad or such previously Iranian locations as Bagdad (God Given)presently called Baghdad in Iraq. Thus, the name simply means born in or given by 'Lar'.

The second name, Hormisdas is a variation of the Modern Persian name 'Hormoz' which was 'Hormazd' and 'Hormazda' in Middle Persian. The name refered to the angel of the first day of each month whose name had been given by the supreme God who, in old Persian, was called 'Ahooramazda' or 'Ormazd'.

The third name 'Gushnasaph' was a common name used in Old and Middle Persian. In Modern Persian, it is 'Gushnasp' or 'Gushtasp'. The name is a combination of 'Gushn' meaning full of manly qualities or full of desire or energy for something and 'Asp', Modern Persian 'Asb', which means horse. As all scholars of Iranian studies know, horses were of great importance for the Iranians and many Iranian names including the presently used 'Lohrasp', 'Jamasp', 'Garshasp', and 'Gushtasp' contain the suffix. As a result, the second name might mean something like 'as energetic and verile as a horse' or 'full of desire for having horses. Alternatively, 'Gushn' is also recorded to have meant 'Many'. Thus, the name might simply mean 'the Owner of Many Horses'.

I hope these short explanations open new horizons for studies of the historical overtones of the story. It should be added that, at the time, the most important political influences in the region were the Parthians from Iran and Romans from Asia Minor and Italy.

Saeed Reza Talajooy, PhD Candidate, University of Leeds, srtalajooy@hotmail.com

Thanks for this bit of information! this is quite interesting. I have amended the article accordingly, and done some reformatting and linking of your comments. I moved your whole text to talk so that your note could be preserved as written. -- Smerdis of Tlön 02:26, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Popular Culture section at the end

In the popular culture section at the end (video games/anime/movies), the reference to 'The Mummy' is in error. The Mummy characters are actually members of the 'Medjay', which is a Nubian tribe of warriors absorbed into Egypt (see entry for Medjay).

[edit] Why "Three" Wise Men?

Why does this article repeatedly mentioned "three" wise men from the Bible? The Bible didn't mention three, nor is three the likely number. The better thing is to excise the number from the passage then mention that three is the number likely tradition ascribes to. Mandel 04:50, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] duplication

This page duplicates Three Wise Men extensively. --Wahoofive 22:19, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I merged much of what was here into Three Wise Men, which I agree with Mandel needs to be renamed. - SimonP 22:28, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of Reference to The Mummy

The characters led by Ardeth Bey (actor: Oded Fehr) in The Mummy Returns, not The Mummy as originally quoted in this article, are not actually Magi, but rather Medjai (not sure if that is the correct plural), spelled in Wikipedia as Medjay, tribal leaders. A key here is that Magi were Persian mystics, whereas Medjai/Medjay are Nubians (in real life); in The Mummy Returns itself, this is confirmed by the fact that Ardeth Bey and company speak Arabic, not Persian. Hence the deletion. I have no inclination to add references regarding The Mummy Returns to the Medjay entry, nor reference to the Medjay in Oded Fehr's reference, though someone else is welcome to. --Ted Gellar 6.08 p.m. EDT, 29 May 2005.

He was a "magic-user" priest though, IIRC. That would fit in the article in fiction area, as he was a sorcerer. Mabey a a note on the "Medjay sorcerer" could be fit in. JDR 15:06, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] In search of the birth of Jesus: the real journey of the magi.

SEE "In Search of the Birth of Jesus: The Real Journey of the Magi" by Paul William Roberts.

[edit] Chrono Trigger

If this article is NOT merged, or even if it is, for now, there should be a link to the character from Chrono Trigger called Magus, neh?

[edit] Why the "cleanup" tag

This article is disorganized, in that the section titled "Magi" starts the whole article over again. It was clearly intended to be the beginning of the article. The two beginnings need to get merged. Michael Hardy 00:08, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

The organization of the article was pretty bad in general. All fixed now! --Tydaj 14:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed the Fowles novel reference from "fictional magi" section

I have removed the following from the "fictional magi" section:

A particularly well-known fictional tale of a magus is the novel The Magus by British author John Fowles, which was later made into a film with Anthony Quinn in the title role.

For the record, I am a huge fan of John Fowles, and The Magus is my favourite book. However, its inclusion in that section is highly misleading. There is actually no magus in The Magus, except in the most abstract sense. The Magus is not about a magus, or about magic at all. It is about self-exploration, understanding life and love; becoming an adult. In any case, there is already a disambig link to The Magus at the beginning of the article; besides being misleading, this section was also redundant. --Ashenai 22:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mage: The Ascension

Since "Mage" directs to this page, a disambiguation between this page and the WhiteWolf game "Mage: The Ascension" is required, IMHO. TYVM. 198.107.20.174 20:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ihabitants of Persia

The Magi were a *Median* tribe and therefore inhabitants of *Media*. It could be said they were at a time inhabitants of the Persian Empire, but that is irrelevant.

[edit] Modern Usage

A number of occult organizations use the title Magus. The Church of Satan, Temple of Set, among others. ALso it was claimed by the guy who wrote the Demonic Bible. Should this be included?

[edit] Magi/Biblica magi: Proposed merger

I can't find any explanation of why there is both a "magi" article and a "Biblical Magi" article. I'd like to propose a merger. I suspect most people looking up the word magi are interested in the Star of Bethlehem story. If the issue is article length, at very least the link to "Biblical magi" should be given prominently near the top of the article. In any case, article length should not be a reason to take out the parts of an article that readers are most likely to be interested in.Kauffner 02:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The Biblical article has a lot of material that would be completely irrelevant to the historical issue, and vice-versa. I also think you underestimate the amount of people interested in the Magi as a people, rather than as figures from Scripture or Christmas tradition. Anyway, there are, as of this moment, two prominent links to the Biblical account at the beginning of the article. Seems fine to me. Ştefan 14:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] boring

this is really boring —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.5.210.250 (talk • contribs) 05:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC).

Your're boring. The fact that you go around vandalizing articles for fun proves it.

[edit] Modern Usage?

Perhaps it should be noted that "Magus" in modern times is used by various groups as a title of high rank. The Church of Satan holds it as their highest degree and the TEmple of Set holds it as their second highest. It was used by groups like the Golden Dawn (along with others that Crowley associated with) and is claimed by people who claim to have great magical knowledge. 64.5.145.74 15:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

I couldn't follow a reference, because there was no reference section. I've added a section but there is a problem with some of the references. I think I managed to fix the one with a big lump of crap in the text, but it leaves a few with { { title } } - since I'm not familiar with that format - I'm leaving it for now in the hope someone else is! Mike 11:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, where in Herodotus does it mention the magi? Have to look elsewhere! Mike 11:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

OK: Herodotus i.101Mike

[edit] Occultism

It is notable that many occult organizations use Magus as a high title, sometimes the highest attainable. Examples are the Hemetic Order of the Golden Dawn, the A.A., Church of Satan, Temple of Set, and a variety of others. This should be included in the article.WerewolfSatanist 01:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable sentence

"It's also believed by some Christians that the Jewish prophet Daniel was rab hartumaya (master of sacred scribes) and entrusted a Messianic vision (to be announced in due time by a "star") to a secret sect of the Magi for its eventual fulfillment (Dan 4:9; Dan 5:11)." The two verses cited have nothing to do with the statement quoted. Unless there's a source supporting it, I think this sentence should be removed. Makerowner (talk) 03:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Magi or wisemen.

Magos is a greek word which by implication means a magician. (see Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. No.3097). Jesus nor the disciples used Greek or Persian. So the Gospel of Matthew was written in Aramiac or Hebrew. In Hebrew the word used is Châkam, meaning to be wise in mind, word and Act. (see Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. No.2449). The same word is used in the same gospel in verses 7:24 and 23:34 but the translation given there is “wise men” and not Magi or Magoi or Magos. This clearly shows that the correct translation is wise men and not magi.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 05:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Although this article is a complete mess, to say magos meant "wise men" or (by implication) "magician" is not correct either. The original Greek word for magician is goēs, and though influenced by it, magos is not etymologically related to it.

Magi (singular 'magian', 'mage', 'magus', or archaic 'magusian') is a wanderwort whose meaning has since at least the 4th century BC unambiguously denoted a follower of Zoroaster, and more specifically, a Zoroastrian priest. This degree of precision is not applicable to sources prior to that date, but those sources are not what you are referring to anyway.

English language 'magian', 'mage', 'magus', and 'magusian' derive via Latin from Greek μάγος magos. The Greek word is itself a borrowing, probably via Syriac or one of the other Eastern Aramaic languages, and ultimately from one of the languages spoken by Iranian expatriates residing or trading in pre-historic Asia Minor and the eastern Mediterranean. Which specific Iranian language those people might have spoken is unknown—not only is not possible to determine which region(s) those Iranians came from (and hence which language they spoke), the word appear in Greek before it does in Iranian sources, and further, Greek magos is influenced by the original Greek word for magician, γοης goēs.

Thus, obviously, it is not possible to reconstruct what was originally understood by the term. But as early as the 5th century BCE, Greek magos had spawned mageia and magike to describe the activity of a magus, that is, it was his art and practice. But almost from the outset the noun for the action and the noun for the actor parted company. Thereafter, mageia was used not for what actual magi did, but for something related to the word 'magic' in the modern sense, i.e. using supernatural means to achieve an effect in the natural world, or the appearance of achieving these effects through trickery or sleight of hand. The early Greek texts typically have the pejorative meaning, which in turn influenced the meaning of magos to denote a conjurer and a charlatan.

Zoroaster—or rather what the Greeks supposed him to be—was for the Hellenists the figurehead of the 'magi', and the putative author of a vast compendium of "Zoroastrian" pseudepigrapha, composed in the main to discredit the texts of wrong-thinking rivals. The subject of these texts—whose authenticity was rarely challenged—ranged from treatises on nature to ones on necromancy, but the bulk of these texts dealt with astronomical speculations and magical lore.

Thus, translating 'Magi' as "wise men" is only half the story. Its not wrong as a transferred meaning (or rather as one of them), but it is not correct either.

-- Fullstop (talk) 23:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)