Talk:Madelyn and Stanley Dunham

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on March 11, 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

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[edit] Only living ancestor

Madelyn is Barack's only living ancestor. There is some confusion with Sarah Obama who is a step-grandmother. Americasroof (talk) 23:22, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Free Obama's White Grandmother"

The article currently includes this:

An article by Chicago-based Internet journalist, broadcaster and critic Andy Martin ran under the headline "Free Obama's White Grandmother."[15]

Is this Andy Martin really someone whose opinion is noteworthy? He doesn't even have a Wikipedia page at the moment (although there's a redlink to him at Andy Martin). The inclusion of his view on Madelyn Dunham seems a bit odd to me. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:48, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The exact phrase has 748 hits on google. Americasroof (talk) 14:26, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
/shrug/. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:45, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I more clearly identified him with Newsmax to differentiate him from "just some blogger." Americasroof (talk) 15:33, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality of phrasing

This opinion piece is part of the 2008 Presidential campaign section: "Part of the controversy lies in the fact that if the reverse were the case (a white person used the phrase "typical black person"), it would be immediately and resoundingly condemned as racist" and most of the sources are POV conservative blogs. Does anyone else agree that this should be removed?--PilsnerUrquell (talk) 07:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

It's definitely not OK in its current form: as you say, the wording is far from neutral and not all the sources are reliable. It would be better if the criticism were attributed to a specific notable commentator, rather than forcing the reader to slough through the conservative echo chamber. I'll see if I can come up with a better way to note the comment and the reaction from the commentariat. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:37, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I will echo chamber that the comment as written is not appropriate. Those kinds of debates really should go in the A More Perfect Union speech (assuming it survives afd - which I assume it will). The focus on the article should be Madelyn. Americasroof (talk) 16:56, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I've attempted a slightly more neutral version, noting the path the story took to reach the mainstream media and eliminating the most unreliable of the noted sources. I'm not sure that my version is up to snuff either, though. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I think you did a good job on the rewrite. I think it's pretty safe to say that she's going to be the target of conservative blogs until election day so we'll have to keep on top of it. Thanks. Americasroof (talk) 17:09, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I've added Obama's clarification on his clarification, although I now worry that we may be giving this undue weight. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:14, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Since this is the first time where she has formally come up in discussion. It might need to go into its own section. In the for what it's worth department, Obama made a factual error in the speech about her (he said she worked in Fort Leavenworth although she actually worked in Wichita - his mother (Madelyn's daughter) was born in Fort Leavenworth during WWII). Americasroof (talk) 17:20, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

RE: WIP Radio Interview I inserted the actual full quote from the WIP interview from US News. Could someone please correct the citation - I do not know how to do it. http://www.usnews.com/blogs/news-desk/2008/03/21/obama-typical-white-person-comment-delights-clinton-aides.html

Here is the link to the full audio clip of the interview: http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx?id=8a521134-e10b-4bfb-8aec-690d61794d50

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.65.85 (talk) 21:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I fixed the quote, based on listening to the clip. The US News quote was not correct - he clearly says, for example, "my grandmother", not "Grandmother" - so I have changed the text to the actual quote and put in both the original Chicago Tribune citation and the clip citation. Note that the clip site may not be stable, so I think both citations are warranted. Tvoz |talk 07:04, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] reworked

I did a rework of this article as follows:

  • refs were in abysmal shape - they are now organized and in cite format, using "ref name" for repeating citations
  • removed anachronisms such as "she met Obama's grandfather" - he was not Obama's grandfather until many years later. Not encyclopedic and not necessary.
  • removed some repetitive material and some irrelevant details
  • worked the names of publications, writers, etc, into the notes - not appropriate for text unless particularly notable
  • removed over wikilinking and added a few wikilinks where needed
  • "only living ancestor" is more confusing - he considers Sarah Obama his grandmother, although she is step - this isn't the place for genealogical details like that, as long as we are accurate
  • tightened the language in a few places

Tvoz |talk 07:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

Stanley Dunham is a stub - just about all of the details about him are here already. I suggest we add his high school and parents' names and merge that article into this one, renaming it "Madelyn and Stanley Dunham" (with redirects to here from "Madelyn Dunham" and "Stanley Dunham" of course). Tvoz |talk 07:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Done - no point in having the Stanley stub, as all information was already here. Tvoz |talk 21:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Opposed to the Renaming - I am strongly opposed to the renaming of this article to Madelyn and Stanley (even if it is probably with the best intentions). It has made a mishmash and corrupted categories. We've worked very hard on Madelyn notability and not so hard on Stanley. You can redirect Stanley here until such time as more info surfaces on him (and it will). But please don't try to change Wikipedia naming conventions. Americasroof (talk) 23:19, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
The thing is, the text of this article was already about both of the Dunhams - pretty much all I had to add was his high school. I acknowledge the category problem which I hadn't anticipated, but there may be a better way of handling that - we shouldn't, though, have category problems determine article content, should we? I'm not trying to change naming conventions, but I'm not convinced that the best way to go is for stanley to just point to madelyn. (And indeed, my intentions were good. I waited a week before implementing the change, by the way.) Tvoz |talk 05:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Also, see this - there is ample precedent for this formulation. See Julius and Ethel Rosenberg for example, or John and Lorena Bobbitt - not to draw any comparisons to either of those couples! Tvoz |talk 05:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I remain strongly opposed to the merger (even though I know this was a good faith effort to please everybody). 95 percent of this article is about Madelyn. Stanley is only a small part. This messes up the usual categorization (e.g., UW and UC alumni, birth dates, etc.) The married couples category is filled with just a handfull of names. Americasroof (talk) 21:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fort Leavenworth

I think this part of the article needs to be reevaluated, because it says that she worked on at a factory in Wichita, but the article it quotes says "Dunham would go on to serve in World War II while his wife worked on a defense assembly line. She gave birth to Obama's mother at Fort Leavenworth, Kan." which makes it sound like she worked at the assembly line in Fort Leavenworth, where she gave birth to his mother. That can't be possible, however, since there was no assembly line in Fort Leavenworth in WWII. It is also unlikely that they were stationed in Fort Leavenworth as a military unit since Barack Obama has claimed that his grandfather was overseas during this time and Fort Leavenworth is home to the Command and General Staff college, not an active army division like many other military forts. However, that isn't to say it is impossible that he was stationed there, since there were a few engineer companies there at the time, but just that its unlikely and there probably should be some citations to support it before it is stated as a fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.49.81.53 (talk • contribs) 11:02, March 24, 2008

[edit] Category sorting

Having a problem with the category tags - should be able to indicate which name goes which cat, but I haven't figured out how. Will check with people know more about this - if anyone knows how to fix, please do. The info is correct in the raw edit, but it is not translating properly. Tvoz |talk 22:02, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Useful source

I don't have the time to go through it right now, but the Honolulu Advertiser has an article about Madelyn Dunham's life which would be useful for this article. If someone wants to mine it for useful information, that would be great. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Looks like Dan Nakaso has reworked his Honolulu Advertiser article for USA Today; most of the content is the same, but there's a little more info about her current status, from Maya Soetoro-Ng. Meanwhile, Madelyn appears briefly in a campaign ad for her grandson, which I suppose we should mention in the article. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:06, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bank Vice President in Washington?

I don't entirely trust the comment that she was bank vice president in Washington since she worked at the Bank of Hawaii from 1960 until 1970 before she was promoted there. I sure wish we could get a specific bank name for the Washington bank. Americasroof (talk) 21:11, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] nominate for deletion

I want to re-nominate this article for deletion. His grandparents are not notable. ObamaGirlMachine (talk) 01:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Support deleting. Not notable and there is no reason to think the person this article is about will be notable in the future WP:NOTCRYSTAL. Being mentioned a few times by the media doesn't make you notable. I'm using this same argument for all biography articles being nominated for deletion that are related to Barack Obama, it's clear that Michelle Obama is the only notable person given an article, the others all seem to be fluff. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 01:46, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Note - ObamaGirlmachine (above) is a problematic and potentially disruptive new WP:SPA account that has been canvassing others to come to this and other pages in an attempt to delete articles for Obama family members. Suggest speedy closure if these articles are nominated. - Wikidemo (talk) 17:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Do not delete. We had a long discussion on this in March and the decision was Keep. At this point, given both her mention by Obama in his race speech and her actual appearance in an ad for Obama, Madelyn Dunham is even more notable now than in March. It bears repeating she is Obama's only living ancestor and the only living person who raised him.GreekParadise (talk) 02:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)