User talk:Macedonian

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Welcome!

Hello, Macedonian, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  REX 17:28, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Macedonians, not Macedonian Slavs

Macedonian, you can see here that Miskin has been active since you posted your message on Talk:Macedonian Slavs and if he used his Watchlist he certainly is aware of your post. Why then didn't he respond? Maybe because he is afraid to because he knows that he has no sources whatsoever to support his arguments. REX 17:36, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I am more than sure that the Greek users will react soon, they always do, no matter if they do not have any fact or argument. They simply imagine one and keep talking about it.
Probably they are just taking a little "rest". Or trying to ignore us, until we get more people joining the discussion. They are doing this for centuries, through the history... I don't think they will quit now. It is important that we are here, waiting for them.
Macedonian 22:37, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, this reminds me of going shopping in an Oriental Bazzar. The shopkeepers are selling something worthless, but they try to convince you that it is worth about $ 5,000. Their ultimate goal is What is mine is mine and what is yours is mine too! REX 22:46, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

It seems that the Greek extremists don't want to come out and play! Is is possible that this is because they have no sources? Da, I think so. Macedonian, you may want to have a look at this Greek POV template which the Greek extremists had placed on any article which said Macedonia instead of FYROM. The vote is over now, but still read it if you enjoy a good laugh. REX 21:30, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Brother Macedonian, warm greetings from brother Serb :) HolyRomanEmperor 12:27, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I was suspicious of Miskin. About Cyril and Methodius, their mother was Slav and father Greek, right? And what problems with Greek and Bulgarian nationalists you mean? I don't see anything sporadic with the Macedonian nation whatsoever.... If you feel like it, I would like to invite you to several discussions wich are killing me. Hear from you soon. HolyRomanEmperor 11:41, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Human Rights in Greece

Wanna learn more about the appaling state of Human Rights in Greece Macedonian? Get a load of these:

And there's more:

Honestly, if Greece wants to call herself European, then she will have to observe the European Convention on Human Rights. At time like this I'm so happy that I'm not in Greece and being subject to gross inhuman RACIST Human Rights violations. It is so nice here in the United Kingdom where the European Charter has been incorporated into domestic law Human Rights Act 1998. The Greeks are RACISTS! REX 13:51, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I most certanly understand. I need a little favour. Could you edit the Rudjer Boskovic page and delete the Croatian alternative for the name (I am out of my fast internet connection)? The user:Elephantus keeps vandalising it in spite of many of my appeals to stop and explain himself. Could you alse tell me how to report him? Thanks in advance. HolyRomanEmperor 21:26, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Macedonian Diaspora

Because you have been very nice to me, I searhed and found this link [1]. It's not much I know, but it is a start :-) REX 07:41, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks REX. Anyway, I tought you should know that I was not trying to defend you. I was only talking about my own impresion of you, which happened to be very possitive. :) Macedonian 01:25, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I solved the problem (I think) with Rudjer Boskovic (come and look). But another thing now. I saw the 1921 population census of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, and it has a very tiny minority of Macedonians. Most Macedonians declared themselves as Serbs. Can you brighten me this up a bit? I mean: did the Macedonians temporarely join the Serbian nation as a result of the Balkan Wars and the Great War? or were they assimilated by the royal government? HolyRomanEmperor 19:21, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recognition of name "Republic of Macedonia"

Hello. Do you have a good source for the number of countries which recognize the Republic of Macedonia by that name? Do you know where a list of those countries could be found? CDThieme 23:52, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Господине Македонецо!

Немојте објављивати "ја сам овдје САМО да...".  :) Ту би рекли да је ово зато што није у складу са духом Википедије, и то би било правилно; али ја ћу вам рећи да то не прави Вама част. Ви можете бити овдје за све укључујући Ваш рат против Бугара и Грка, но не препоручујем Вам бити овдје само због тога. --VKokielov 05:34, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Najpre da ti zahvalim na komentaru. Uglavnom si u pravu. Ali, moj je problem sto sam nepopravljivo iskren. U svakom slucaju, imam i drugih interesa osven da se "svadzam" sa Grcima i Bugarima, pa stavicu i to da se lepo vidi.
Hocu samo da naglasim da ja nemam bas nista protiv Grka, Bugara ili koga bilo drugog. Nisam ovde da napadam njih. Ovde sam da branim sebe, svoj identitet, kulturu i istoriju. Nemogu da sedim skrstenim rukama i da gledam kako Wikipedija pise da su Makedonci vestacka tvorevina Tita.
Jos jednom hvala na savetu. Sasvim si u pravu i poslusacu taj savet.
Istovremeno, ukoliko imas malo vise znanja o slucaju "Makedonija", i ukoliko imas nesto vremena, zamolio bih te da se ukljucis u diskusije (ukoliko te to interesuje) koje se odnose na Makedoniju.
Gledajuci koje sve jezike govoris daje mi malu ideju o tvome poreklu, pa mislim da si dosta neutralan u ovom problemu.
Puno pozdrava i hvala jos jednom. Macedonian 02:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Ja nisam neutralan, pa kamo li pravedan, jer ne znam sve. (Nitko ne zna sve). Ali uglavnom si u pravu; ja sam poreklom iz SSSRa, a dom mi je Amerika, i zato imam nešto drugi, vanjski pogled na stvari - ma da ni u kojem slučaju ne snishodni.
Hvala na zahvalbi, i želim sretnog boravka ovdje. Imam nade, da ni Bugari na bg.wikipedia nemaju ništa protiv tebe. Oni su divni ljudi, kako se govori u Srbiji. Pogledaj njihov članak, na primjer, o makedonskom jeziku. --VKokielov 03:01, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
To si kompletno u pravu. Niko od nas nezna sve. Ja cak mislim da mi znamo sasvim malo, jer ovaj Balkan (koji neki zovu Supak Sveta) ima neverovatno slozeni istoriju koja je puna ratova, asimilacije, problema... Znajuci da pobednici pisu istoriju, siguran sam da prava istorija je nesto sto mi ustvari jos neznamo.
Znam da su vecinom Bugari dobri ljudi. Isto to vazi i za Grke. Problem je sto su neki (oni najglasniji) kompletno zaslepljeni nacionalizmom. Bas sam pre par dana gledao neki dokumentarac na Bugarskoj TV za Makedoniju. Ne razumem Bugarski jezik mnogo dobro, ali taj je dokumentarac tvrdio da 80% Makedonaca zeli da se Bugarska i Makedonija spoje i zajedno udzu u EU. To je nevidzena glupost. Cak i da bi neki politicar to predlozio, njegova bi kariera zauvek zavrsila, jer Makedonci su uzasno zabrinuti za svoj identitet i nemogu verovati Bugarima, jer su oni bezbroj puta kroz istoriju tvrdili da su nasa braca, a kasnije su nam zarijali koplje u nasa ledza.
Video sam clanak oko Makedonskog jezika (isto kako i vecinom clanaka koje se odnose na Makedoniju) na Bugarsku Wikipediju. Problem je sto razumem Bugarski jezik, ali nedovoljno da razumem ceo tekst. Ali, meni je bilo ocigledno da je anti-Makedonska propaganda prisutna u vecinom clanaka koje pricaju o Makedoniji. Kad procitas sve te tekstove, videces da oni tvrde da su Makedonci ustvari Bugari, a Makedonija je Bugarska teritorija. To nemogu nikako da prihvatim, jer sasvim dobro znam moje poreklo.
Hvala jos jednom. Puno pozdrava. Macedonian 03:31, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Interesuje me odkud znas tako dobro Srski/Hrvatski/Bosanski jezik? Odkud Makedonski i Bugarski? Meni se nesto cini da imas dosta znanja o Juzno slovenskoj knizevnosti. Macedonian 03:31, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Naših dana, znanje leti, pa i moje znanje vaših jezika. Bugarima njihovu glednu točku moraš oprostiti. Oni imaju odgovornost pred svojim bugarskim čitaocima. Ne može se Rim sgraditi jednim danom, iliti sve će se obrušiti. --VKokielov 03:54, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Znam da si u pravu. Ali nije lako zaboraviti tolikih godina assimilacije, koje se desava cak i danas (Procitaj ovo, molim te: [[2]]). Nije lako ni zaboraviti da ti je najbolji prijatelj zabio noz u ledza mnogo, mnogo puta ranije.
Nismo mi Makedonci ljudi koji uzivaju da se svadzaju. Znam da ce se odnosi medzu nas i Bugara poboljsati, ali znam isto da nemoze da se zaboravi sve. Moze samo da se ignorira. Macedonian 06:23, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Meni se čini da je equillibrium u privremenom nahođenju istine. Da; Makedonci su bili Makedonskim Bugarima do dvadesetog veka. Ali to ne znači da su oni Titovska tvorevina. I Bugari to znaju vrlo dobro. Ja sam sklon pomisliti da bi Bugari sami mogli isploviti iz ovog brzoteka (kladim se za postojanje ove reći) da ne bi bilo nekih snobistskih tečenja amo u Sofiji. --VKokielov 03:11, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Znam da vecina izvora do pocetkom 20tog veka su zvali zval Makedonce Bugare. Ali, ja mislim da je to sve zbog 2 razloga:
1) Do oslobodzenja Bugarske of Otomanske imperije, nije bilo ikakvih granica u regionu punih 5 vekova. Nije ni sasvim jasno kada tokom tih 5 vekova su nastale moderne nacije. Znajuci da Bugari i Makedonci imaju delimicno slicno poreklo, bilo je normalno da vecinom izvora smatra da smo mi bili deo njih (znajuci da je bilo mnogo, mnogo vise Bugara nego Makedonaca).
2)Znajuci sta se sve desava danas (u 21vom veku) u Bugarsku i Grcku, znajuci sve probleme koje Makedonci u te 2 zemlje imaju, znajuci kako se Grcka i Bugarija ponasa prema Republiku Makedoniju i Makedonce, mogu samo da pretpostavim kakvu su uzasnu assimilaciju i torturu oni radili pre 100, 150 ili 200 godina, kad nikog nije bilo briga za Ljudska Prava na Balkanu.
Da Makedonci i Bugari imaju delimicno zajednickog porekla je fakt. To je to Slovensko poreklo. Ocigledno mi i Bugari imamo poreklo od istoim ili slicnim Slovenskim plemenima. Ali, ni nase poreklo, a ni Bugarsko nije samo Slovensko.
Fakt je da Makedonski identitet postoji. Nije tolko vazno dali je on nastao pre 15, 60, 100, 500, 1100, 1500 ili pre 2500 godina. Nemogu da podnesem kad neko uporno tvrdi da to nije tako.
Kako bi se ti osecao da si u nasoj situacii?
Puno pozdrava, Macedonian 03:31, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Ja sam Jevrejin.
Vama sa Bugarima bi bilo dobro što pre naći opšti jezik, jer pri svima svojima tendencijama, Bugari su ipak najbolje odareni da vas razumeju. Kad će se njihova vlada najzad o tome odlučiti, biće vama obema bolje. Srbi, nažalost, nemaju sad sa vama dovoljno opšteg interesa, ma da ga imaju više nego sto godina prije. U to ti se mogu poklesti. Veruj mi: ne bismo mi Jevreji preživeli da nismo uvek znali ko je naš bliži prijatelj, ko dalji, a ko nije prijatelj uopšte. Kako se pokaza, osim politike ima još i međurazumevanje. Najbolje je kad politika je u skladu sa razumevanjem; ukoliko nije (kao kod vas i Bugara), obadva gubite nešto. --VKokielov 04:02, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Mi nemamo nista protiv Bugara. Jedino ne zelimo da nas neko ignorise i assimilise.
Sto se Bugarske vlade tice, mozda ce se nesto promeniti sada, kad je Mr. Stanishev premier. On nikad nije krio da je poreklom Makedonac (cela oceva familija su mu Makedonci iz Kukusha), ali se oseca Bugarom. Isto, dobro je sto je najveci deo svoga zivota proveo u Rusiji, gde se i skolovao, tako da ima dosta neutralniju pretstavu oko cele situacije.
Ipak, ja licno imam mnogo vise poverenja u Srbe. I oni su nam cinili zlo pocetkom 20-tog veka, ali uvek su bili iskreni. Imam puno prijatelja u Srbiji, cak i neke rodzake koje su se otselili tamo, pa znam da oni priznaju Makedonsku naciju bez problema. Nadam se da si u pravu oko Bugara. Kao sto sam rekao, ja nemam icega protiv njih. Prijateljstvo je uvek pozitivna stvar. Macedonian 06:23, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


Yes, ever my torture and banishment from my homeland, Croatia, I have a very high interest in human rights. Although, I aimed on the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes precisely. As far as I can see, I find no incident between Serbs and Macedonians at that time. The freedom-fighting VMRO lost all reputation (that it had from the fights against the Ottomans) so they were concidered as Macedonian outcasts (where exiled together with the Ustaše). Even during the population census, many of our (Serbian) national litterature refers to the people living in there explicitly Macedonian, not Serbian. HolyRomanEmperor 19:13, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

You are right, the Serbs were the smallest problem for the Macedonians. They were trying to proof that Macedonians are Serbes, but they never were doing that through killing.
Concerning VMORO, the problem is that many of its members were Bulgarians who infiltrated in the organization in order to make it fail. Even the Ilinden Uprising was started much earlier than planned and unprepared, only because those members wanted it to fail, so Macedonians will not get their independance. Macedonian 02:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

From this I draw the fact that the Serbian and Macedonian peoples where extremly friendly and allied. Do you think that that population census is entirelly correct? P. S. the Macedonian village of Kruševo heavily supported the Četniks during WWII and for that was entirely pillaged by the Partisans. HolyRomanEmperor 19:16, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, you are right that we are close with the Serbs. As I said, aldough there were some tries for assimilation, they were not so violent as the others were. Concerning the census that you mentioned... I am sure that its results are completely not OK. That census was exacly during the time of the biggest tries of assimilation of the Macedonians into Serbs.
I should also mention that the population of Krushevo untill the period of the 1950s was 40% Vlach, which were partly supporting the Chetniks. The Macedonians were dominantly at the side of the Partizans.
Thanks for this disscussion. :) Macedonian 02:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sa bijelegom

Ne bih rekao da su Bugari vasi prijatelji - ukoliko oni ne odustanu od svoje politike. Ali kad bili bi odustali, onda bi vi jedno drugog bolje razumeli. --VKokielov 04:10, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Znam, tako sam te i razumeo. Bice tesko da im opet verujemo, kao sto je bilo to na pocetku 20-tog veka. Znas, kad se jednom izgoris, posle ces duvati cak i u kocku leda. Macedonian 06:22, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, but I do believe that most of them declared as Serbs (because there was no other option, they most certainly didn't want to declare as Bulgarians) but not that Macedonians are ethnicly Serbs. I mean, I saw many forged documents (by Bulgarians) and am very familiar with Greek anti-Macedonialism. But I fail to find any source regarding the Serbs forging population censuses or any event of Greater Serbian oppression. HolyRomanEmperor 12:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe you are right. Macedonian people many times until the 1st part of the 20th century declared as Bulgarian, Greek or Serb, deppending on the situation. Anyway, anyone neutral and with some knowledge of the region and its problems can see that this was (as you said) because we were not given any choise. Macedonian 02:00, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Assimilation and identity

Hi. I created a stub article on Ouranio Toxo. Uncle Ed 15:50, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your effort. Actually, Wikipedia already has a page for this political party. Rainbow Party
I would like to ask you, if you are interested in the topic (which seems you are), you to add some text concerning the problems that this political party has in Greece, including the problems of the Macedonian (same as the other) minorities.
I would like to do this, but I think that the text will get much more weight if made by someone more neutral (having on mind that I am Macedonian). Macedonian 02:11, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Од "Да заровим езиковия проблем"

Да заровим езиковия проблем:

". Трябва да престанем да гледаме на Македония като на Малка България, трябва да престанем да се държим като Матушка Рус към своите по-малки славянски събратя. Има македонски българи, има български македонци, но има и македонски македонци. И преди да викнем, че царят е гол, нека да огледаме собствените си срамотии - нашите деца, за разлика от македонските, не знаят и не пеят не само нашите македонски песни, но не знаят и не пеят нито добруджанските, нито родопските, нито тракийските, нито мизийските, нито шопските такива. "

издвојене ријећи су издвојене од мене.

Delimicno sam razumeo tekst i cini se da je dosta pozitivan. Ipak bih te zamolio, ako ti nije tesko da mi prevedes, jer izgleda dosta zanimljivo. Ko je autor teksta? Macedonian 02:04, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

We have to stop looking at Macedonia as if it were Little Bulgaria; we have to stop acting like Mother Russia to her little Slavic brothers. There are Macedonian Bulgarians, there are Bulgarian Macedonians, but there are also Macedonian Macedonians. And before we scream that the king is naked, let us gaze at our own navels [i.e. see our own shame] - our children, as opposed to the Macedonian, don't know and don't sing not only our Macedonian songs, but don't know and don't sing Dobrudzan, Rodopian, Trakijan, Mizijan, or Shopian songs." --VKokielov 03:12, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Exacly in this moment I am trying to deffend myself from an assimilation attempts and lies from a Bulgarian user here on Wikipedia. He obvioulsy is prepared to do anything in order to present the Macedonians as Bulgarians who Tito forced to leave their Bulgarian origin. What a bullshit. Tito was actually arresting anyone who was promoting ideas for independant Macedonia and making us register as "Yugoslavians". As I said, the assimilation attemps do not even end now, in the 21st century.
Also, I used the text that you translated as a message to that user. For him to see that not all Bulgarians are assimilation machines.
If it is not too much to ask, and if you have time, can you maybe include in the disscussion in the following link: [[3]]?
I will understand if you refuse, because I am aware that this is very boring issue. Macedonian 04:07, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Did I help a bit? (P. S. I have never heard about Tito forcing anywone to declare Yugoslav, since I looked at the population censuses and saw Yugoslavs as a minority always; besides Tito endorsed political separatism) HolyRomanEmperor 16:29, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Adding facts like you did will deffinitly help in the discussion. It seems like you have quite good knowledge that can be used in this kind of problems. And I am glad that you do not show any nationalism towards any nation. I always apresiate the neutrality. Thanks...
Conserning Tito... I personaly respect him very much. He had done some bad thinkgs, but a simple fact stays: Until he ruled Yugoslavia, no war happened in the region.
Anyway, many Macedonian patriots were inprisoned by the Communist party (a number that from 1945-1991 reached about 10.000, which is 0.8% of the Macedonian population living in Macedonia). Many of those people are still alive. Everyone who showed even slightly little bigger concern for the Macedonian issue and posible independance was or inprisoned or closely followed and isolated. It is truth that many Macedonians had to promote their nationality as Yugoslav just in order to proof their loyality towards Yugoslavia. My grandfather was one of them, a partizan who latter had to promote himself as Yugoslav, so he could keep his job as a chief od the Yugoslav Railway Army transport for Macedonia.
Anyway, do not misunderstand me. Tito was generaly good for the Macedonians. We respected him and loved him, same as the other people in Ex-Yugoslavia at that time. But, he did not have a lot of understanding for the problems of the Macedonian minority in Greece and Bulgaria.
I wanted to ask you... do you maybe have some information about the rebeled Macedonian partizans who (after the WW2 ended) wanted to continue their fight for unification of all Macedonia? I need this because some interesting facts might appear, mostly concerning the number of the Macedonians in Greece and Bulgaria right after the WW2.
Take care my friend. Macedonian 04:28, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I am not quitte familiar with that moment. I do know that there was quiite an amount of them, but Bulgaria was an ally (the Red Comintern) and Greece way out of the influence, so Tito made them give up their desires for two reasons: 1) (the main reason) Stalin said that there should be no more border changes whatsoever in the world and 2) Bulgaria agreed to guarrantee the Macedonian-Yugoslav nation; Greece had to do that also, but the military dictator abolished that demand HolyRomanEmperor 15:44, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

The rebel partizans that I mentioned, who wanted to continue their fight for unification of Macedonia (which in that time was still dominantly populated with Macedonians) made rebelions in 1944th and 1945th asking Tito to "go on Solun".
In that time, Greece and Bulgaria were still not allies with Yugoslavia. Actually, in that time Yugoslavia was still not formed.
Obviously, Tito secretly supported the idea, but only until the end of the Greek civil war and latter the alliance between Yugoslavia, Greece and Bulgaria.
You are completely right that Tito had good reasons not to keep supporting this idea, because after the Greek civil war, the demographic characteristics of the Greek part of Macedonia completely changed.
Actually, if I was him, I would do the same, because it had no sence to push whole Yugoslavia in a risky situation just for some region which was obviously already mostly Greek.
Also, if I was him, I would never marry Jovanka. :))
Anyway, I have to say that it was bad to inprison 0.8% (I made a mistake in the numbers of the previous post, I re-checked my source today) of the Macedonian population just in order to "respect" his allies. Anyway, knowing what happened from 1991st-1997th and all those wars, I realise that was probably the only way to keep the unity of Yugoslavia. A unity which I have to admit that I feel little nostalgic about. Macedonian 02:31, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


Look, you can report me to whoever you wish. I have presented firm proof of what I have stated. The Macedonian Communist Party defected en masse to the Bulgarian cause in 1941 and Tito was forced to send a Montenegrin to organize some kind of resistance - which nevertheless was very weak and extremely belated compared to the rest of Yugoslavia. Should I also mention that a number of Communist partisan leaders (including Chento) were tried and sentenced to death after WWII for pro-Bulgarian sympathies? Stop whining (I can clearly hear the voice of Istirbinski here) about assimilation, you are getting ridiculous. The point is to represent history in an objective way and that's the last thing you are doing. VMORO 03:59, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
You showed no sources or proofs. Your imagination is not a reliable proof, neighter the nationalistic Bulgarian web sites are.
Do you know how rediculous you sound?
The Macedonians fighted for their freedom, and Bulgaria was the occupator. That fact can be found in any history book in the world.
Also, your lies are not more powerful than the words of 3000 partizans that are still alive and more thna 100.000 that passed away, but took part in the WW2. They clearly say what were they fighting for, a independant Macedonia, without any Serbian, Bulgarian or Greek occupier in it. They were fighting for it, VMORO, not you.
Concerning Chento, he is the biggest fighter for independant Macedonia. His whole family still lives in Macedonia. Do you think your lies can be more powerful than their words?
Concerning the other people that were inprisoned by Tito, you can ask also most of them, many of them are still alive. Independant Macedonia was in their heart and that is what they fighted for. That is why they got inprisoned for.
The ones who had pro-Bulgarian ideas were runned away in Bulgaria or Russia... and they were about 400 people (source: The union of fighters for Macedonia, the union of the partizans that fighted in the WW2). The other 9500 inprisoned were fighters for free Macedonia, who stayed untill the present day.
Deal with it VMORO, we would never be Bulgarians. And, because of people like you, you will never gain our trust back. We treated you as brothers, but all what you did is put us a knife in our backs.
By the way, what happened to the 300.000 Macedonians that were registered in Bulgaria after the WW2? How come that census was set up, but all other after that were truth? My god, you are so full of s..t. Macedonian 04:38, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, if there is anything else that you need a hand on, I will be glad to help. User:VMORO, you have to make more reasonable claims before you start pushing them so violently. I am afraid that your statements really don't make much sence. HolyRomanEmperor 16:48, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, there might be. User:VMORO keeps giving senceless facts supported by sources that were obvioulsy influenced by the Bulgarian assimilation attempts that claim that we are Bulgarians which in just 60 years completely forgot their origin. If that is truth, we would probably have a new world record of fastest formation of a separate nation. :))
Anyway, on the page of Macedonians (ethnic group) he just added some new so called "facts" concerning your comments. I answered him on the other comments, but I leave the part of the Serbian history to you.
Anyway, I think that someone from the administrators should take care of his behaviour. Another Greek user (I will not say his name, because someone might see it as a Personal Attack) was banned from some regional Wikipedia because of the same way of acting. Maybe VMORO deserved the same. Macedonian 04:26, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I have the feeling that user:REX misunderstood me. He didn't respond to any of my posts. Did I do anything wrong? HolyRomanEmperor 16:51, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

user:REX is not much active lately. I don't know why, but it might have to do something with the arbitration against him. Another Greek user asked arbitration against REX claiming that REX made PA (Personal Attacks). But, actually that user was the one who started the PA and was completely unconstructive about the naming issue of the article "Macedonians (ethnic group)". Maybe this absence is a part of his protest. Macedonian 04:26, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

1991st to 1999th more acuratly, as we should not forget the Kosovar Civil War, and the NATO aggression. HolyRomanEmperor 16:57, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

What is that problem that you've got there with Jovan, the HEad of the Macedonian Orthodox Church? HolyRomanEmperor 20:09, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

It is rather complicated problem. I will try to sumarise:
The Ohrid arhibishopic was canceled by the Ottomans (after the presure by the Greek side) at the end of the 19th century. After that, the teritory of Macedonia was separated in the Balkan Wars, so the Bulgarian, Serbian and Greek ortodox church separated this teritory among them.
In the 1960s the modern Macedonian Ortodox Church got separated from the Serbian Ortodox Church, who ruled the part of the Republic of Macedonia. Since then, the Ortodox comunity (again because of the Greek insisting) never recognized this church.
Some 2-3 years ago, there were negotiations between the Serbian and the Macedonian Ortodox Church, where we were sugested to get recognition by the comunity of the Ortodox church under the name "Ohrid Arhibishopic". Maybe at first it seems like good option, but the name does not include the name of the country (Macedonia in this case). On the other hand, all other countries have churches with the name of the country included in the name of the church.
This was obvious a Greek interest, because they would eliminate the name of "Macedonia". (Should I mention that the arhibishops in Istambul and Jerusalem are of Greek ethnicity?)
So, we didn't wanted to accept a name without "Macedonian" in it until the other churches do the same.
Later, the Serbian church recognized a church in Macedonia called "Ohrid Arhibishopic", which was lead by Jovan. Just as a note, the Ortodox rules do not allow 2 churches ment for the same terotory for people of the same ethnicity.
Aldough people did not accept Jovan and stayed loyal to the Macedonian Ortodox Church (MPC), Jovan became quite agresive. He made many incidents, including one when he entered a Macedonian ortodox church in Bitola and tried to make a ceremony there without having any consultations with the MPC. There wereseveral incidents, but I am not going to bother you with them.
Latter, he was inprisoned for breaking the public pease and promoting national hate (which he really did with publically and violently attacking the Macedonian main priest).
He was also accused for stealing money from donations in his church (when he was priest of MPC). The donation was from Trifun Kostovski (one of the ricest Macedonians) for a new church in Veles. Jovan signed the paper for getting those money from the bank, and since then there is no trace from them. So, his prison time was extended because of these convictions.
I want to explain that the people here see this as a problem with Greece, not with Serbia. It is clearly a Greek interest to deny the name of Macedonia for us and we think the Serbian church do this just in order not to get problems from the Greek Ortodox Church.
This is becoming even clearer with the fact that Jovan spent more time in Greece than in Macedonia during his service. Also, the Greek church, same as the churches of Istambul and Jerusalem (also lead by Greeks) are loudest in this issue, while the Russian church (and other churches) are quite neutral and reacts only when asked to.
Feel free to ask for any further discussion on this or any other issue. I know because of my friends and relatives in Serbia that most of the people there do not know the side-parts of Jovan issue. Too bad, because the Macedonians see the Serbs as truth friends. But it is good that we understand that Greece is actually behind this issue. Macedonian 04:26, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I still don't get what the REX part has anything to do with me... HolyRomanEmperor 12:39, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know even what you 2 are talking about. I contacted REX, he only said: "Could you please tell User:HolyRomanEmperor not to take my silence as an insult. I have nothing against him.". Can you please inform me little more about this? Because I really don't understand. Macedonian 04:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I must inform you of a heavy fact that now runs through Serbia and Montenegro. The Patriarch Pavle spoke of this many times. Macedonians are great Serbian allies. Greeks are great Serbian allies. I especially saw this during my recent vacation in Paralia, Greece (I also stayed a little in Macedonia) Yet, the cold war between Greeks and Macedonians continues... HolyRomanEmperor 12:45, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I know. Actually, people here see your Patriarch Pavle as very resonable and sweet man. We beleive that the problem is made by several other priest with great influence over him. I won't try to name them, because, as I said... We all strongly beleive that Greece is behind this problem. And all facts say the same. Macedonian 04:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I saw several occasions when our politicians were forced to choose sides. Šešelj had proposed the Serbian Greek Empire and during the later discussions suggested Macedonia's seperation between Serbia. While Slobodan Milošević threatened that he will not attempt to evade a war with Greece, or all three together if anz jeoperdized Macedonia's integrity (this exactly is the reason why Greece didn't involve in the wars in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia; should've it used its western European connections Yugoslavia would've been saved) HolyRomanEmperor 12:52, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I see all that as a gray part of our history, because we all had been a part of Yugoslavia. I am not nostalgic, but I have to say that if we were still together, non of us (Macedonians, Serbs or anyone else) would have problems. Now we would be probably one of the most powerful members of the EU and all propaganda against any ethnicity inside Yugoslavia would have been doomed. Macedonian 04:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I am from Karlovac, Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Socialist Republic of Croatia). I currently live in Belgrade, Serbia and Montenegro, Republic of Serbia. HolyRomanEmperor 12:56, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Most of my friends and relatives live in Belgrade. Do you maybe know the flowershop "Meri" in Avtokomanda? It is owned by my aunt. Except Avtokomanda I have some friends in Sremcica and Dedinje. I have relatives/friends on other places too, but I don't know the names of the neighboorhoods. Macedonian 04:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Read the Macedonians (ethnicity) talk page. User:VMORO has mentioned that the Serbian King Konstantin Bodin crowned himself Tsar of Bulgarians, not Tsar of Macedonian Slavs He didn't read what I said... Oh, jesus. A Serbian King centralled around Ston now has something to with Macedonians (other than he helped their 1072 uprising) and Bulgarians. User:VMORO is talking nonsence... :-)) HolyRomanEmperor 13:06, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I know. His side of the history is completely full of some completely ilogical claims. Some of them are even ridiculous. I can not understand how can the Bulgarians still hope for us to become Bulgarians? We would rather sign a deal with the devil than with them. There is nothing worse than someone playing your brother, so he can latter shoot at your back. Macedonian 04:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

user:VMORO had also stated something about Emperor Stefan Dušan, again not having to do with anything I said previously. Dushan was Tsar of All Serbs, Greeks and Albanians. The Bulgarian part was only discoreved recently, probably because he planned to join Bulgaria to his Tsarinate. Dushan also mentioned that the Bulgarians were a minority living in Kyustendil. HolyRomanEmperor 13:10, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Please use all the facts from the history that you know. In the history, the Serbs and the Albanians were the only neighboor of ours that were recognizing the separate Macedonian ethnicity. Greeks and Bulgarians were always denying it, hoping that they will get all Macedonia as a part of them, same as our history and culture. Thanks god my ancestors obeyed them. :)) Macedonian 04:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

REX probably has smarter things to do that answer my posts currently. HolyRomanEmperor 12:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I know why REX does not spend much time on Wikipedia anymore. I promised I will keep this as a secret, so it would be dishonest to say it to anyone.
Just, please know that he really has nothing against you. He made that very clear at our last contact. You can check his contributions. You will see that he is obviously very limited with time lately. I asure you that you have his complete respect. Macedonian 04:06, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I wish to express my opinion on something; but this might offend you. I hate separatism. I can understand reasons of one leaving or abandoning the other (such as oppression, conflicts of opinions, etc.) but still it doesn't sound nice in my ears. I would much like that Eritreia remained a part of Ethiopia; that Yugoslavia didn't break-up, nor the Soviet Union or Checzoslovakia. HolyRomanEmperor 12:10, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Your oppinion does not offend me at all. Actually, I fully support it and think completely the same as you concerning this issue. As I said, I feel quite nostalgic. Yugoslavia had its negativities, but the positive things were much more. Especially at the end of the 1980s, when the economy really started to grow rapidly. I have said it before, I will say it again. If I had to choose, Yugoslavia would still be joined. The good, old times.
Obviously I had to make it clear. I do not support the Macedonians who wanted an independant Macedonia when we were inside Yugoslavia (until 1991st). I am only little mad from todays perspective, when the Bulgarians and Greeks use every chanse to deny us. Every try to deffend us from that politics until 1985th was seen as separatism. And, most of those people only wanted to deffend their Macedonian identity from the Greeks and Bulgarians. I am sure that 90% of them wanted Macedonia to stay a part of Yugoslavia. Macedonian 04:06, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


Dedinje in Serbia is well-known to be the location of the richest and most corrupted (because of Milosevic's gang) HolyRomanEmperor 12:32, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I know. :)) But, my family has nothing to do with those people. They never were into politics. They are quite rich, but that is because they started working private business (flower shop) quite early, even in the time of ex-Yugoslavia. Also, they invested the money in "nekretnine", and we all know that business always pays off.
My cousin just got married 20 days ago and she got an appartment from her father to live in. Dedinje was picked up just because the constructor of the building there was a friend of my uncle. Macedonian 04:06, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Miskin's Paragraph

Igor, I'd like you to not remove Miskin's paragraph: This article is about the Slavic ethnic group that adopted the name "Macedonians" in the 20th century. For information on the unrelated, ancient Macedonian civilisation see Macedon and for the greater modern region of Macedonia, see Macedonia (region). He has explained to me that now that the article is called Macedonians (ethnic group), a specific qualifier is needed to avoid confusion with the Ancient Macedonians. As they are allowing us to keep the article at Macedonians (ethnic group) we have to give them something (consideration). REX 22:39, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

The paragraph is mainly OK, but there are couple of problems:
1) The user could already choose from the Macedonian (disambiguation) page. So, if he was looking for antient Macedonia, he would choose that one, especially because it is the first listed there. In Macedonia (region) we accepted the refference to Republic of Macedonia to be erased, because the Macedonia (disambiguation) page already gives the options. Why would we follow another rules on the Macedonians (ethnic group) page?
2) It is truth that we are mostly Slavic, but saying that we addopted the name is POV pushing. That is the only identity we know for ourselves, but this word "adopted" sounds like we made a meeting and decided to start using that name.
3) The paragraph says that we are unrelated to the Antient Macedonians. It is truth that we can not claim direct connection to them, but we have same ammount of origin from those people like any other nation in the region has. I would not be proud to be an ancestor of the killer machine Alexander, but I know that I can not deny any connection to him and his people.
4) The article is pushing the POV that the Macedonian nation was formed during the 20th century. It is exacly what the Bulgarians and Greeks need to continue their assimilation and denials.
Cheers, my friend. Macedonian 04:15, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] FYROM denar

Could you please vote at Talk:FYROM denar#Requested move if the article FYROM denar should be renamed Macedonian denar. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 14:24, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I can not beleive that someone ever accepted the article to be called FYROM denar. I can bet my life that this nationalism will not be tolerated anymore here on Wikipedia. Macedonian 21:53, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I have seen many propaganda in my life. But right now, I am interested in Greater Croatian propaganda. Ljudevit Gaj claims that he had engulphed Serbdom when he forged the new štokav dialect Croatian language. This was accepted until 1990. The Republic of Dubrovnik was incorporated into Croatia in the early XX century; its speakers spoke of the shtokav dialect. Elsewhere, the kaikav and chakav dialects were dominant among Croats. It is from this matter that they draw that the Croatian language is based on the Ragusian Slav dialect. What's more, this fact is used also to claim Ragusa Croatian heritage (inhabited by Croats, Croatian culture...) Then, the fictive pages like Croatian linguistic purism started to appear. HolyRomanEmperor 14:59, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I am not claiming that the entire Croatian language is bas on the Serbian, but it is not quitte appropriate to make the upper-mentioned self-contradicting claims. Don't you think? HolyRomanEmperor 15:01, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I will not dare to comment on this issue, because my knowledge is too poor concerning the things given above. Anyway, it seems quite complicated. Probably little contradictory too. Macedonian 21:53, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

About Jovan; while I was in Greece, the Hotel receptionist spoke to me about dictatorship of Macedonia; and how the head of their Orthodox Church was arrested. He said that it was purely a political arrest (that is why I asked you about him) HolyRomanEmperor 15:13, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe it was political. I am sure that several things he did are good reason for someone to be sent to jail because of promoting religious and national hate. But, I am also sure that his trial was (at least little) influenced by his tratoristic actions (as seen by the Macedonians).
Anyway, he is also judged because of stealing money from donors (for which there are strong proofs). Macedonian 21:53, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


Tell me more about this Macedonian Orthodox Church situation. Is it a general move that it should establish its own Patriarchate? For I believ that it is so, but never has any sort of an official visit came to Pavle (except Tito) to discuss these terms? 15:22, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

It is much more complicated than that. You know that when Macedonia got separated between Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia, the teritory was also separated by the churches. So, the Serbian Ortodox Church (SOC) was the one that was in power in the Republic of Macedonia.
In this situation, regularly, Macedonia suppose to ask for its own church from the SOC. SOC clearly didn't wanted to give that. So, in the 1960s and 1970s the Macedonian Ortodox church (MOC) proclaimed independance.
Anyway, aldough it is not according to the rules, many churches (including the Serbian one) got their independance on that exact way.
Having on mind that the MOC (aldough not officially recognized) was the main factor for keeping the Macedonian identity, no one of us is prepared to beg someone to give our land back. Especially when having on mind that the church are the people. And, the Macedonians are very closely connected only to the MOC.
So, as I said... the people here see this matter as a problem with Greece (because of reasons that I already mentioned). Macedonian 21:53, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


I want to write an article of Karl (Carl/Karlo/Carlos) von Czoernig. He is an Austrian historian that made two official population censi in 1851 and in 1857. In both, he had registered the citizens of Dubrovnik and the surroundings as Serbs :)) Acording to him, the number of shtokav Croatian speakers is very low, and lives mostly in Serbian-populated Military Frontier and Slavonia. HolyRomanEmperor 15:29, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Those Greeks that you and your fellow wikipedians are arguing with have attempted to convince me that the country should be called explicitly Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia with an interesting analogy. The Bosniaks call themselves Bosnians while the whole world calls them Bosniaks (because of Serbs' and Croats' veto) HolyRomanEmperor 16:53, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know the exact way how that makes difference to the Croats or the Serbs. Anyway, Bosnians is much widerly used name. Probably you won't like my idea, but I am sure that the article of Bosniaks will be moved to a "Bosnian (ethnicity)" or something similar and the search "Bosnian" will lead to the "Bosnian (disambiguation)" page, where you can see are you looking for nationality of ethnicity.
Whatever is their origin, we all know that today they are separate ethnicity. All what is needed to be done is to make difference between the Bosnian (nationality) and Bosnian (ethnicity). Anyway, that is another example of a quite complicated issue. And, again on the Balkans. :(( Macedonian 21:53, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Bitola

You should check the article about Bitola. I think that it contain some anti-Macedonian Albanian POV. I do not know much about the history of the city, but if you do, you can correct this. User:PANONIAN

I think that it is not Albanian POV, but Turkish (or maybe both). Article was moved to Turkish name (it is slightly different from Albanian). I returned the article to its previous and official name, Bitola, and have corrected interwiki links from other Wikipedias, but in future you should keep an eye on this article. Cheers. -- Obradović Goran (talk 21:25, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Signature

Hi, click here and copy-paste

[[User:Macedonian|Macedonian]]<sup>([[User talk:Macedonian|talk]])</sup>[[Image:Flag of Macedonia.png|25px]]

into the Nickname box and check the Raw signatures (without automatic link; please don't use templates for this) box. Then click on Save. If you do that, your signature will become Macedonian(talk) Nice, huh? (Note that the Bold talk is like that just because it is your talk page, elswhere it woudn't be like that) Please leave a message on my talk page and sign it so that I can see if it works. REX 22:12, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi, not at all, I like your new signature. It is not nationalistic at all. It identifies you as a Macedonian. If you were a nationalist, your signature would probably be something like Macedonian(talk) That is the flag that you find on most Nationalistic Macedonian Websites, which say that you are the direct and pure descendants of Alexander the Great (!) your current signature just means that you are Macedonian (although your User name already covers that :-). Look, I even made one as well. Rex(talk) 16:05, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
REX, you are right. I saw many people doing the same, adding the flags of their countries. Thanks a lot.
Also, I would like to say something about the old flag of Macedonia (1991-95). That is a symbol that can be found on many Macedonian houses, many of them older than 100 years. The Greeks discovered that sign in 1970s.
I don't want to make any assumptions. I just want to add a fact that I have seen with my bare eyes. Anyway, I like the newer Macedonian flag more, it is more artistic. And it shows our national simbol, the sun. :) Macedonian(talk) 03:05, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Theathenae

User Theathenae is spreading Greek propaganda in expense of the Albanians and Macedonians. [4]. Can you protect the articles Theathenae is vandalizing through reviewing and editing them. Many thanks in advance! --Albanau 09:41, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I know. It is ridiculous why the English Wikipedia still tolerates him. His nickname was already banned on the Swedish Wikipedia. Anyway, I will be glad to help against any POV push that I am aware of. User:Theathenae is well known that he use any method he can think of, just to hide the poor minority rights in Greece and aprove the unofficial Greek politics of assimilation. No wonder the Macedonian and Albanian related pages are of his interest, having on mind that these 2 form the biggest minorities in Greece and have no basic human rights there.
Please include in the Macedonia disscusions too, because you are representor of a ethnicity which also have many "members" on this area.
I would like to ask you something. I read here on Wikipedia that the city of Bitola was populated with majority of Albanians until the Balkan wars. I can not agree with this, having on mind that my fathers origin is from there and I also have a lot of family living there since they can remember. I know that there were many Albanians and Turks in Bitola until the Balkan wars (even now there are still some living there), but it is clear to me that the Macedonians were the majority there. Maybe you have some more information on this topic, so I would like to hear them. I do not want to include there untill I am sure I am not mistaken. My goal is not to push any POV there, only to find the truth. Can you help me?
Thanks in advance. Macedonian(talk) 02:04, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
The Albanians were definitely a majority in Bitola before the city was incorporated with the territory of Macedonia. Bitola (also known as Monastir) was the capital of the Albanian vilayet Monastir and a very important Albanian city (population wise and politically). Many Albanians were displaced from the city during the wars in the Balkans.
Back on topic, Theathenae will never change, he should be banned for life. He is destroying the Albanian and Macedonian articles.
Can´t write much right now, g2g. --Albanau 01:33, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Albanau, I know that Bitola was called Monastir, but even the oldest members of my family say that it can not be possible Albanians to have been majority there. Having on mind that the oldest of my gradnfathers that live there is 76, I beleive he has quite good information. He says that he would deffinitly know if that was the case, hence his father was an owner of one of the biggest restourants in Bitola at the beggining of the 20th century. Also, the Bitola area was the 2nd biggest revolutionary settlment during the Macedonian Ilinden Uprising and a birthplace of many Macedonian revolutioners from that period. I will check more history books on this issue, but in this moment the claim that Bitola was in majority Albanian seems to me as POV push. I agree that there had to be some significant Albanian population, but far from majority. Anyway, I need to check this in relevant history books. Macedonian(talk) 03:22, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
No sensible human being falsify his own arguments, in other words you are pushing it to POV. Albanau 16:45, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Albanau

FYI, User:Albanau is banned for life on Swedish Wikipedia, see e.g. sv:Användardiskussion:Albanau and sv:Wikipedia:Begäran om kommentarer/Albanau. He has abused several users on sv: and has been banned indefinitely. Albanau is a troll! Probert 09:56, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

This is actually my first contact with Albanau. I have read some comments from users saying that he is Albanian nationalist, but maybe those comments were just false accusations.
Thanks for this message. I will be careful, but I can not ignore him. Even if he did bad in the past, maybe he should be given a 2nd chanse. Thanks again. Macedonian(talk) 02:52, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

You mentioned something about not agreeing with Bosnians (etnicity). That suggestion sounds fairly geniune :)) (perhaps we could start a poll for it?) I don't think that these Serbian and Croatian nationalists will allow that, though. Since they claim that Serbs and Croats are an autochtonous people of Bosnia, making them Bosnians by ethnicity. They are somewhat correct, though. HolyRomanEmperor 13:53, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

They should be explained the difference between ethnicity and nationality and even citizenship. They are all of Bosnian nationality, but ethnicity is something completely else. I am sure that, if they know what is ethnicity they would never say that they belong to a group called (here on Wikipedia) "Bosnians (ethnicity)".
I do not want to take sides on this issue. Actually I did not know that this issue even exists. But this is only my oppinion. I am very sad to hear that we, who lived in the former Yugoslavia as brothers can have so little tolerance to each other. Macedonian(talk) 02:52, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

user:Albanau is ignoring me. My nationality probably has something to do with it :S (nazi alert!) HolyRomanEmperor 14:01, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know the guy. I hope that there is another reason. I hate nationalism. Macedonian(talk) 02:52, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

The Bulgarian wikipedians had also made an interesting claim :)) They hold that Macedonians were Bulgarians, but got seperated; just like Montenegrins did from the Serbs "a communist fabrication" I only can't seem to understand any sort of a possibal link between those two occasions XD Somebody doesn't know history very well... lol HolyRomanEmperor 14:12, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I can not expect the Bulgarian or Greek Wikipedia to be neutral on this issue. Accordinbg to me, the local Wikipedias are bad idea because a Chineese can write anything there about the Brazilians, because most of the Brazilians do not understand Chineese. (NOTE: The mentioned nationalities are picked up without any assumption, just to make a clear example. Sorry if someone gets offended by it, I didn't mean anything bad.) Macedonian(talk) 02:52, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I think that it is your opinion that religion is closely related to nationality. That is wrong. Wrong in the present sence. Mixing ethnicity and religion (in many cases, like with Yugoslav Muslims by nationality) is not correct to my opinion. The old nations were not based on blood: but on two things - culture (religion) and language. The Ottomans - Islam and Turkish language; the Romans - Roman religion and Latin; Hellens - Orthodox Christianity and Greek language... etc. HolyRomanEmperor 14:24, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

In the past the nationality did not have importance in the Ortodox Religion. Then, the Serbian Ortodox church was Nish's Archbishopric, the Macedonian was Ohrid Archbishopric etc. Non of the churches included the name of the nation. On the other hand, today we have Serbian, Macedonian, Greek, Bulgarian, Romanian... just this fact clearly shows how nationalistic the Ortodox church got in general.
I hate this beeing that way, but as a member of the Ortodox church I have to say that the Catholics can be an example for us when talking about "religion versus nationality" issue. I know very well about this topic, hence my wife is Catholic and I am Ortodox. No matter how much I explain, he can not ever understand the issue of "Jovan" and the problems between the Serbian, the Greek and the Macedonian Ortodox Church. This is because nothing like this can happen in her (anti-nationalistic) religion. Macedonian(talk) 02:52, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry for that repeating; I am experiencing some techical problems :O HolyRomanEmperor 14:35, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

No Problem, my friend Macedonian(talk) 02:52, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Why erase that post??? HolyRomanEmperor 21:42, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Because it is little anti-Serbian, which I really don't like. I see all the people of ex-Yugoslavia as brothers and as I said I have many relatives and friends in Serbia. I am very gratefull to those people that they supported us when it was hardest, when we desperatelly needed our own land, where we can not be assimilated by the Greeks and Bulgarians. Ex-Yu gave that to us. And, as you probably know, Slovenia is the biggest promoter of our constitutional name in the European union.
I wouldn't like to give to the world reasons they to think bad about Serbia because of my post, so that is why I will erase that post. Nationalism is not very popular anywhere. Macedonian(talk) 03:11, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I would like to add something - when I was in Greece, I visited the Greek church(es) and monasteries. When they found out that I was a tourist (and a follower of the Serbian Orthodox Church, I was accepted almost as an honoured guest! I earned a nickname... ugh... I can't really remember it in Greek. The translation sounded something like right-religioned brother. HolyRomanEmperor 22:02, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I know they act that way with you. Actually, the Serbian Ortodox Church is the biggest supporter of their politics. If the Greek church was not so powerful, the Macedonian church would have been recognised without any problem by all the Ortodox world. As you probably know, the biggest Ortodox church, the Russian one does not give support to any sides, no matter they are in the same group as the Greek one. Macedonian(talk) 03:11, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Theathenae

Hi, I noticed your comment at the link above, and please let me know if I can help in anyway. I know virtually nothing about the dispute between Greece and Macedonia, except for what i've heard here and there about the disputes here on Wikipedia from third parties. I think the best place to start trying to fix the dispute would be bringing your case to The Medcom, although please know that I see myself as neutral in this dispute: I just want to help create some resolution between the two sides if possible. Karmafist 03:22, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I am glad if you are neutral. That is what we all need, don't we?
I would like to note that I am not trying to bring more attention to the Macedonia-Greece dispute. All I want to do is someone to take a little attention to this user. Since ever he was very nationalistic, always using Personal Attacks instead of arguments and very often adding edits of Macedonia and Albania related articles that can only be described as propaganda and POV push. Macedonian(talk) 03:29, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

It'd be nice if we could all be neutral :-)
Show me some of the edits you're talking about, and i'll give you my honest opinion if you'd like it. Karmafist 03:31, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Here are some examples:
[| The most relevant example of his nationalistic behavious]. Then he provoked an arbitration against User:REX just because he included very deeply in the Macedonian issue on the Macedonian side (NOTE: REX is partly Greek with Albanian origin living in the UK) [| link to the arbitration]. Aldough User:Theathenae asked for this arbitration, he never contributed further. If you check the last link well, you will actually see that Theathenae received more accusations than REX, no matter this arbitration was against REX. Anyway, Theathenae got what he wanted... REX wasted a lot of time on this arbitration and could not dedicate more time on the real issues. And, finally, now REX is not so active, as a reaction on the unsupported accusations that Wikipedia administrators accepted (and I really wonder why they did so?).
Also, Theathenae's last claim that Macedonia does not recognize the Bulgarian and Greek minority is clear try to take the attention away from the problems the minorities have in Greece. Republic of Macedonia, the country where I live in has an open field for nationality where you can put ANYTHING you want. In the last census we even had "a can" written as nationality. Also, my Mexican wife is also registered as Mexican, no matter she is the only one in the country. Theathenae clearly knows that since 2001st, Macedonia has one of the best laws in whole Europe on this issue, providing all the rights to the nationalities. But, anyway, as I said, he would use any method he can to turn the attention away from the issue and keep hidding all the sceletons in the closets, when concerning the issue between Macedonia and Greece.
Anyway, if I ask for Arbitration, that would be quite hard task, because I will be asked to pick up all the evidence. It won't be hard to find evidence, but it will be quite hard to find the most problematic ones, hence this user has many edits in the same stile. Can I ask some administrators simply to check his edits and see his methods here on Wikipedia? Macedonian(talk) 03:51, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Sure, I'll keep an eye on the situation from now on and check out those edits, but I can't promise the world in looking back at all of his edits prior to now. Other admins might help, but we're all fairly busy and it's hit or miss. If I were you, i'd go here and contact as many admins as possible. I'm also going to ask Theathenae what's going on from his side of things and see if there's any way to calm down the situation.Karmafist 03:59, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

As you said, you all (administrators) are quite bussy. And, even if Theathenae's fault is proven, he can just register a new nickname and (having a dinamic IP address) continue on Wikipedia.
I don't think that the situation can be calmed down a lot (unfortunately). The issue concerning Macedonia and Macedonians is very, very complicated. Please do not get me wrong, but contacting any administrator concerning a user like Theathenae is will be a waste of time for them. Probably you know, but this is just another proof of the negative side of Wikipedia and its open code.
That is why I put my message on the notice board, so only administrators that have time can answer to it in the way they think is the best. Macedonian(talk) 04:17, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Sadly enough, you're right for the most part from my previous experiences, but it still doesn't hurt to try. Apologies for the bad link before, I fixed it, and I also asked Theathenae what's going on. We can go forward from there. Karmafist 04:28, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I would also like to point out what happened next. Theathenae continued his claims for "the Bulgarian and Greek minority in Macedonia". That resulted in locking of the page of Republic of Macedonia. He also accused me of nationalism because I reverted these senceless claims. You can see this disputes between him and several other Wiki users at the following links: [[5]] and [[6]]. Please comment if you get any impresion, even if you do not agree with me. I am extremely sick of these kind of users, whose only purpose here is to push some nationalistic claims. Because of them, I can not find any time for some smarter contributions. Macedonian(talk) 05:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Votes needed

There is a poll going on at Talk:Arvanitic language#Requested move to move Arvanitic language to Arvanitic (linguistics), to reflect the fact that its status as a language or dialect is disputed. This is done in all other similar cases (Flemish (linguistics), Mandarin (linguistics) etc). Please vote support if you support the move. Rex(talk) 15:48, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I am out of subjects :))) Anything you want to talk about? HolyRomanEmperor 20:17, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah... :) It is interesting for me to have an oppinion of person of your background. Ok, another subject... How about the growing supports for the radicals in Serbia? As you know, I have many conections to this country, but I still can not understand how can the support for these people grow, after the experience you had in the Miloshevich's time?
I am not saying it is good or bad, I need to see your oppinion, so I can comment it. Macedonian(talk) 05:18, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
These's another vote on at the bottom of Talk:Arvanitic language, please vote. Rex(talk) 15:11, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Urgent votes needed

Hello, there is another vote going on at Talk:Arvanitic language#Compromise 2. I'd recommend Arvanitic as it is the English name, it does not prescribe whether it is a dialect or not (it also doesn't offend anyone) and above all, it is only 9 letters long (very easy to type in an address bar) and very easy to link to. Rex(talk) 19:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Please, read my posts on REX's talk page from the section "Miskin's paragraph" to the bottom (not many) I have there stated to REX most reasons. I hope it isn't too much for you to go over there and read... HolyRomanEmperor 21:24, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] EU?

Check out these links:

NOTE: I should explain that the stabilization agreement was signed in 2000th, but it took some time till all the EU countries confirm the deal in their parlaiments. Macedonian(talk) 05:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, I have to mention that, no matter it is expected Macedonia to join EU in 2012, that might happen sooner. One posible scenario is that the next elections will take place very soon after getting the candidate membership (probably in the nextfew months), so that way we will start the negotiations at least 6 months sooner that planed. Macedonia is small country and not much investments are needed to push it forward. The bravest predict that we will join EU together with Croatia in January 2010th, but the date depends only on us and our homework. Macedonian(talk) 05:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Arvanitic language

I urgently need your list of relevant sources (sic). +MATIA ☎ 07:50, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

To be honest, every source I checked (except Wikipedia and some pro-Greek web sites) are saying that Arvanitic has origin conected to the Albanian Tosk. Many of them identify it as dialect.
Some sources: Ethnologua, The Free Dictionary, Reference.com, ... and many other sources.
But, anyway the source that I most beleive at is the only person I know (actually all his family) who considers himself as Arvanitic. He says he is Greek with Albanian origin. I am talking about a very rich and respected Greek businessman. So of course I will beleive his word.
I want to explain that I am not personaly conected to this issue at all. But, is not OK to deny the majority of the sources. Sorry, but I have to base my oppinion according to the world accepted facts. Macedonian(talk) 05:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I did some changes on your external links. The last two are WP mirrors, and I'm already using Ethnologue but thanks for your answer. I'm wondering if that Arvanitis family name you are talking about, starts with the same later, your surname starts... If we are talking about the same man, you may know that he sometimes refer to your people as Macedonian Slavs (or something similar). I'm collecting various sources, and, like you, I trust the Arvanites I know here in Greece. Thanks for your answer on that one. +MATIA ☎ 12:33, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I can not tell their name, I promised them. Sorry.
Anyway, I personaly never heared any of those guys calls my county or nationality different than Macedonia or Macedonian. I know for sure that they do not support the dispute that Greece and Macedonia have. Same as several others that I know.
I beleive that the people of that origin should be trusted the most. But, as far as I can see, they all do not share the same oppinion. Complexed issue, I hate them so much!!! It is so much easier when all parties can agree on something. Macedonian(talk) 05:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, you wrote "I vote this way because I follow the most ofthe relevant sources which do not list it as language", but Ethnologue lists it as a language. +MATIA ☎ 16:51, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I just gave you the sources I could remember. The first time I was asked to involve in the issue, I made a very intensive search online. It will take a lot of time (that I do not have) to find all those links now. I told you that at the beggining, the only thing I knew about this people was from the family I know, so I had to have good research on the topic. Anyway, according to me, this issue is also very complexed, similar with (but less than) "Macedonia" one.

[edit] about EU

I just saw your request (I had forgotten about it).

Some years ago Venizelos (a member of the greek parliament) had suggested that Greece would fully support and promote the entry of your country in EU, and in return your country would try to find an acceptable name, for both countries. I think that last spring, the greeks were almost ready to accept something like RMS (RoM-Skopje instead of RoM) and I have never understood why your country didn't provide any counter-proposals, for example Republika Makedonija (if I did any spelling mistake, forgive me). I really believe that your people and my people have many things in common, and I think that our countries should work closer and develop strong bonds. All of us have nothing to win from that long-time dispute, and the sooner the two goverments solve it, the better. +MATIA ☎ 00:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I really like your oppinion, Matia. I completely agree with it, this issue we have only makes us loose, not win.
But, there is something that I need to explain to you. If you ask me, I personaly will never accept a deal that will instantly put us in EU, but with a name different than Republic of Macedonia. Let me explain you why.
For us that name means identity. For you, a teritory and history. A teritory that you own and will own probably forever. And history that was 25 centuries ago.
OK, I want to ask you something. Try to put yourself in our position. Try to imagine how it feels when you live in a weak country, with quite poor economy and all you have is your identity. Try to imagine how is when someone tries to take that away from you. Try to imagine how it feels to listen to the Bulgarians saying that we are a part of them, when you know that many of your people lost their lives for independant Macedonia. Any other name than the natural one (Republic of Macedonia) will be unnatural and a direct threat to the existance of our whole ethicity.
Also, the history between us is not great in the last 150-200 years. But, we have to learn how to forget that fact, because we should not loose our future just because of the history.
We can always sign an agreevement that we do not have exclusive rights over that name, that we do not have any teritorial claims towards Greece and so on. But, we can not loose the only name we know about ourselves.
Also, I can not understand the Greek position of trying to add something to the name of the country. That will not change anything in the mind of an average European. Greece does not win anything with that kind of solution. Only we can loose, our identity. Loose it for nothing.
I think the real problem lies in the fact that the people from Greece and the people from Macedonia do not really know each other. Have you noticed that the Greek position over this question is much different than in 1995th? Since then many Macedonians spend their summer hollyday in Greece. So, we have more chanse to comunicate, meet each other.
I want to ask you to understand that I am a patriot, but definitly not a nationalist. I am married to a catholic girl from Mexico (I am ortodox). I even accepted to get married in her church. How nationalistic is that?
I am sure when you really understand that we do not have anything against you and your country, you will see that we had this dispute for nothing.
You are completely right, we have a chanse to turn in great neighboors. I just hope our politicians will be smart enought to realise that and move on.
Please continue to give any further comments, if you would like. It is quite interesting to know an oppinion of someone "on the other side" of the dispute. :) Macedonian(talk) 05:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, I did try to see the things the way your people do, and I believe that my previous tries after the big poll (June or July) were towards NPOV - I had believed that it would be easier to work it out here (according to the policies and the guidelines) than our politicians to complete the negotiations. We'll be in touch, take care. +MATIA ☎ 10:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] pings/reminders

Reminder (ping!) HolyRomanEmperor 09:28, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

...another reminder... HolyRomanEmperor 22:25, 4 November 2005 (UTC)


At first, let me say sorry for the delay. I had to reinstall all my computer and it took me a while till I took care of it. Besides, my wife starts to feel little lonely, because I use the night to write on Wikipedia. So, you know how it is... I love her and she should see that. :))

Ok, back to the topic. I want to say that the people in Serbia and Macedonia feel exacly the same about the EU issue. We see it as our only hope. Actually, Macedonia has another option which for now is just a covered idea, but at least possible: getting similar status with US like Puerto Rico has. But, of course, that would be unnatural. But still posible, if EU closes its doors to us.

I want to comment a little on the Serbia's position. I think that it is fact that Serbia and Monte Negro will get separated, sooner or latter. I think that if you want to get in EU sooner, you have to close that issue as soon as posible and take your own ways.

Also, the Kosovo question is here. You have a good chance to use the issue to get something from the EU. It is up to your politicians how will they use it. But, the bad thing for you is that Serbia is not so close to US as it should be.

Another negative thing for you is the fact that the Radical party of Sheshelj is the most powerful one in Serbia. Radicals can not take you anywhere. It is OK for them to have the power on local grounds (in the towns and vilages), but Serbia has to be lead by left wing goverment. That is the only way how you will show to the Europeans that the Miloshevich time is far in the past and it will never come back. It is imposible they to cooperate with someone whose boss is a guy like Sheshelj. You know what I mean, right?

I want to tell you that the deal for stabilization and association that you just signed with EU is the first step. For example, we did that in 2000th. Now, the real work follows. I think you have very good chanse even to join EU before 2015th, but it all depends on your politicians and on the people. It is not very easy to accept all the reforms that have to be done. Beleive me, I know.

Also, I really think that you and Croatians should try to put your issues barried in the past. I know it is hard, but Europe will not accept that kind of behaviour. We also have problems with Greece and Bulgaria, but we never were in official war (except in the WW2, with the Bulgarians). Anyway, all those disputes between us are based only on words and fear and they do not have valid grounds. In reality, the Macedonian people have quite good relations with the Greek and Bulgarian people. Macedonian(talk) 05:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

NOTE: I have to add... the most important thing you have to understand is that: All EU thing is only politics and rules. It all depends on the team you will choose on your ellections. Macedonian(talk) 05:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

First of all, I am a Croatian (differ from Croat). And second, you keep mentioning you instead of my much more preffered they (for the sake of neutrality and the fact that I am not a citizen of Serbia and Montenegro, so I cannot influence its political activities at all) HolyRomanEmperor 13:32, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry my friend. Please don't get mad. I remember you mentioned you are Croatian, but you said that now you live in Serbia and Montenegro, so I tought it is OK to say you. When I said "you", I ment "you living in S and MN". Regardless your nationality. Sorry again. Macedonian(talk)

And Macedonians fought the Bulgarians in the Serbian Royal Army in 1913 (Second Balkan War) and in 1915-1918 (First World War) HolyRomanEmperor 14:46, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I know. But, there were also Macedonians in the other 2 armies involved. Then, the Macedonians were joining the fight thinking that at the end they will get recognition of their separate ethnicity, maybe even their own country. Same reason why they joined the Greek comunist party in the Greek civil war. Macedonian(talk) 05:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Other two armies? As far as I can recall, all Macedonians deserted the Bulgarian Army when they heard that Serbia has to give up Macedonia in Bulgaria's name to make Bulgaria join the Entente (Allies) HolyRomanEmperor 14:58, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Bulgarian Army - all Macedonians deserted to Serbian or Russian Armies by the end of WWI (Bulgaria was to receive Macedonia from Serbia; the Macedonians protested, so Nikola Pašić refused; this cause angered Bulgaria to join the war on the Central Powers' side) HolyRomanEmperor 15:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Bulgarian Army - all Macedonians deserted to Serbian or Russian Armies by the end of 1915 HolyRomanEmperor 15:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

The Greek Army was less significant during the war. And the frontline stretched to Thessaly (meaning that no Macedonian soldier could've been mustered in the Greek Army) HolyRomanEmperor 15:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

You obvioulsly know this quite well. Concerning the Balkan wars, it is a fact that Macedonians were a part of all 3 armies, but only because they hopped they will manage to get an independant Macedonia. I repeat, during the Balkan wars. But, to be honest, you obviously know the details more, when concerning this war. To be honest, the Macedonians see this war as the worse thing that happened to us ever. You know, it does not feel OK when touching an open wound. To be honest, that is why I never liked reading about the Balkan wars... no matter what happened to it, we ended up splitted in 3 countries with no rights and recognition as separate ethnicity. Not a nice thing to remember.
When considering the WW1, it is the same story. You are right there that the Macedonians were mainly in the Serbian army.
BTW, do you maybe know where I can find the Bucharest peace deal, when Macedonia was actually splitted between Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece? I know that it ends up in the next several years. I also know that there are anexes of that deal that were never made public. I know that nothing can change now, but I wish those anexes are made public, because everyone in Macedonia is sure that a deal like that can not be signed without giving any decisions about the Macedonians. Macedonian(talk) 05:25, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Request

Здраво, Македонецу, т.е. Игор! Сакам да го видиш ова. Според мене, мислам дека е полно со пропаганда (особено делот со FYROMIAN passports итн.). Што викаш ти за тоа? Поздрав. Bomac 17:03, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Комплетно сум свесен дека има секакви срања на тие страни. Да бидам искрен, токму тоа е причината што никогаш не седнав да го прочитам целиот текст и да реагирам.
Јас мислам дека е најдобро да го причекаме Слободан, а после тоа ќе замолиме уште некој да ни помогне да ја исправиме неправдата. Да пробаме да ја смириме полека ситуацијата на главните неколку страни, па после ќе го средуваме остатокот. Дел по дел.
Знаеш, за да не гризнеме поголем залак него што може да преџвакаме. Јас веке почнав да доагам тука на секои 2-3 дена, а не како порано (секој ден). Ова е така зошто стварно е тешко да си млад, женет, да координираш бизнис (ако така може да се нарече тоа) од кој зависи цела фамилија, а во исто време да чекаш да те викнат на обука за работа во друга фирма. Да не спомнувам што сопругата моја многу пати ми има преречено дека додека она спие, јас се карам тука со луѓе кои не ни ги знам. :))
Во секој случај, ќе продолжам со ова најмногу што можам. Не е тешко да се напише по некој коментар тука. Тешко е да се ископаат страници на интернетов кои се од веродостојни извори.
А, мислам дека треба да почекаме и поволен момент. Јас лично олекувам уште барем една светска велесила да не признае наскоро под уставното име. Тоа би било идеален момент да дигнеме огромна прашина која би траела неколку месеци, се додека не ги средиме сите неправди на оваа википедијава.
Во секој случај, малку по малку, правдината ќе си дојде на видело. Во меѓувреме да пробаме да заразиме уште некој патриота (не националиста) со википедија, за да ни помогне. Му се мислам да се јавам кај Јанко во емисија. Знам дека типот ќе биде засегнат со вакво нешто. Macedonian(talk) 05:35, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Here: Treaty of Bucharest, 1913 HolyRomanEmperor 15:25, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I have read a lot about this treaty. The thing is that many sources confirm that there were several annexes, but that they never were made public. It is expected they to become public after the end of the deal, which is in the next several years. The big powers are responsible for the treaty. But, after almost 100 years, the situation in the region changed completely. So, let's see what will happen. Macedonian(talk) 05:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Please, read the Let me hear yo out section on User:Joy's talk page. I want to hear your opinion on the matter (since you are fighting for high Human Rights), please. HolyRomanEmperor 15:33, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

My god, it took me so long to read all that. :)) But, no problem, it was interesting.
I will be honest on this issue. I can not beleive that so much nacionalism can grow between the both sides (Serbs and Croats). I love them both, as brothers. We shared the same country for 46 years. And now it hurts me seeing all that bullshit.
In my oppinion, both sides did a lot of shit. Terible fact, but no one can deny it. I won't get into discussions who did more or who had right for those actions. That was never supposed to happen. Same as any war. No one got anything out of it. Just 1000s of victims, thoulsands of killed people, thoulsands of destroyed futures... toulsands of shocking stories.
Have you heared the song "Mahir i Alma" from Edo Maajka? I am not a big fan of Maajka, but that song shows just another terible destiny... one of many, many that happened to normal people. No matter of their nationality, they all suffered. A lot.
My friend... I am getting very nervous when I think of what happened to Yugoslavia and all those years of war.
I hope that will never happen again. Macedonian(talk) 05:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

urgent votes needed: Montenegrin language HolyRomanEmperor 12:52, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Damn, this is too hard to vote on. My grandmother has a house in Montenegro (Ulcinj), aldough I do not have any origin from there. So, I have a lot of contacts with Montenegrians, same as with Serbs because the neighboorhodd where the house is in is full of Serbian weekend houses. In my oppinion, whatever is the name, the text should clearly say that many Montenegrians see the language they speak as sepparate language. Anyway, I posted my comment which is my personal oppinion. Please comment my comment. :) Macedonian(talk) 05:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I live both in Serbia and in Croatia at times; but I am being annoyed by one thing: in Serbia everyone is constantly talking about the Srebrenica massacre and the utter Serbian evil (BBC, B92, etc.) while in Croatia, everyone is talking about victory, cutting off all seven heads of the even-headed monster and the Serb warmongering conquerors. HolyRomanEmperor 18:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

One of the worst crimes of the Yugoslav wars (I will not attempt to compare to others, since crimes cannot be compared) was the Gradoška massacre in western Slavonia. The Croatian authorites admit that their army executed 200 Serbian Krajina and Yugoslav Prisoner-of-Wars and 150 Serb civilians; when the exact figure is more like 7,000 (only civilians) HolyRomanEmperor 18:57, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

And the authorities in here don't really care about anything (Srebrenica, Mladich, Gotovina, nothing...) The man main responsible for my misfortunes (anf my sister's death and couple of others) is currently the President of the Croatian National Assembly; so you must understand my attitude towards this matter. HolyRomanEmperor 19:05, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry for taking me so long to answer. I was out of Wikipedia for several days, private obligations.
Wait, your sister was killed in the war? I am full of reactions now, but I will try to wait till you answer me. Damn, this is so hard to hear...
Every single week I hear another story like this. How could that happen? Remember "Bratstvo i Jedinstvo"? Jebem majku to the guy who let that become past. We could enter EU where the borders are completely free and then separate. With the decentralisation, everyone would be great. This way, everyone lost. So fucking much. Macedonian(talk) 06:10, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] RfA for Halibutt

Hello Macedonian! In case you are unaware, Halibutt is going through the administrator vote process. I believe that any input you could provide would be valued. Also, I have taken the liberty to correct Latino to Latina on your user page. Olessi 19:45, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

To be honest, I do not really remember that I had any experience with Halibutt. So, I can not judge. Any thing that you beleive I shoudl know about him? What is your personal oppinion about him?
Thanks for corecting to latina. I never check my mistakes on the edits. :))
Take care. Macedonian(talk) 06:20, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I personally am not aware of any interactions between you and Halibutt (he primarily writes about the regions of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth), but, as I have seen your User Name before, I figured it would be better to inform you just in case. He has strong views and has often been seen as stubborn, but at the same time he is one of the most polite and reasonable contributors to Wikipedia. I personally believe that he would not use admin powers in POV disputes, but other users disagree. Olessi 01:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for considering me, Olessi. I will try to look through the contributions of this user. If I build my personal oppinion about him, I would include in the process. But, I am aware that I have to be very careful. And I will be. I do not want to missinterptet or missjudge anyone's posts. Macedonian(talk) 14:34, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Florina

You might want to visit the article about this beautiful Macedonian town Andreas 02:48, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, Lerin (Лерин) is really a nice town. Small, but beautifull. When I was there, the locals were talking macedonian with me. Bomac 11:43, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I never was here, but I have heard many wonderful things about it. Also, I have met people from there that runned away from Greece to Poland, but now live in Macedonia.
One of the places I have to see. Especially because it not very far from Bitola, the hometown of my father. So it won't take too much trip to get there. :))
Can you tell mesomething more about the town? Mostly about the relations between the different ethnicities. As far as I know, Florina is the town where aldough weak, the relations between the Macedonians and Greeks nowdays are quite OK. Aren't they?Macedonian(talk) 06:36, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry that I really do not know much about this town. I was once there passing through but it was at night. Moreover, at that time I was totally unawere of the existence of a Macedonian language or nation. (I thought that poeple living in the R. of Macedonia, that was then part of Yugoslavia, spoke Serbian). Visit User:Bomac's page to find more why I wrote you. Andreas 14:52, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
No problem. Thanks for contacting me. Take care... Macedonian(talk) 14:30, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] About Nikos Georgiadis

That is the democracy in Greece? You'll be life-threatened if you say your opinion? I'm so sick of that. Greece should act like the country where democracy had begun it's way, but this refers to the opposite. Bomac 12:43, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I know. Just, the good things is that I am sure that many Greeks will reconsider this problem after these new happenings. I am sure that many of them are completely misinformed about the problem. This way, they might think little more about it. Anyway, poor Nikos. All the problems just because of expressing his own oppinion. This does not happen in countries that have democracy in practice, not just on paper. Macedonian(talk) 14:24, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

In 1990 the Serbs of Karlovac were relocated for "better commodities" to a quarter of the city. Sniperists were put ontop of the buildings and they shot anyone (Croat, Serb) walking the streets of the Forbidden (Serbian) Corridor HolyRomanEmperor 13:52, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

The telephone threats and the siege weren't really hard to put up... but then they started breaking into the apartments... HolyRomanEmperor 13:56, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

When the JNA and Krajina attacked, the soldiers were recalled, so we used the chance to run away. Unfortunatly, when we came to the village of our grandparents, the villagers were already slaughtered and the village burned to the ground (animals, households, everything) HolyRomanEmperor 14:02, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Both of my grandparents' villages were pillaged; but luckly, my mom's parents survived the war... HolyRomanEmperor 14:10, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I am terified with what you are telling me. I know a lot about this war and all the bullshit that was happening, but it is whole new experience when you hear these things from someone who have lived through it. Awful, my friend. Macedonian(talk) 14:20, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Macedonian (disambiguation)

1940 newspaper cover, during Metaxas dictatorship
1940 newspaper cover, during Metaxas dictatorship

Please try hard to avoid unjustified personal attacks (greek nationalists etc) and give a try to find out whether you might have done similar things, that you accused others of doing. Take care. +MATIA ☎ 16:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry i I made any personal attack against you. The thing is that I always want to express what I think and not try to hide anything. Thereore, that is my personal oppinion about some users here (but, not about you). Anyway, you know how it is. When provoked, anyone is reacting more harsh than when making regular posts.
I am sure you are aware that almost all users included in the issue from time to time make some comment that can be interpret as Personal Attack. That includes me and you too.
Take care. Macedonian(talk) 14:53, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

What's going on, my friend? Do you have some problems? P. S. What does that article mean? HolyRomanEmperor 12:19, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Touching a little the position of the MAcedonians in Greece under Metaxas dictatorship. I am not sure what the newspaper says, but I think it concernes the use of the name "Macedonia" during this period. The worst period in the history o those people, together with the first 10 years ater the Greek Civil War. Macedonian(talk) 14:53, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
That newspaper cover shows the word MACEDONIA (ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ) and a date during Metaxas dictatorship. The articles on that front page, are against Hitler and are irrelavant. I was trying to explain to you that Metaxas didn't prohibited the usage of the term Macedonia. By the way, where have you heard that Georgiadis got threats against his life? I remember his position etc, but I haven't heard (TV) or read (newspapers) anything about life threats. +MATIA ☎ 18:28, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I read those information from BBC on Macedonian. It also included a threats from several church representors and some mayor. I do not exacly remember whole the story, so I can not quote, but I might look for it if you want. But only of you agree it to be a part of the Republic of Macedonia page (of course, if BBC really is behind the story). OK? Macedonian(talk) 02:21, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes. By the way, as long as there are speakers of the Serbo-Croatian language (see my personal page) the language isn't dead. Could you put on your wikibabel the Serbo-Croatian (or Croato-Serbian, Croatian or Serbian...) Like some (more and more) wikipedians are doing. It would much help the Serbs and Croats to spread this beneficial propaganda. HolyRomanEmperor 14:41, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I would be more than glad to add Serbo-Croatian language to my wikibabel. But, I am not a native speaker of the language... I am kind of near-native. I tried using the code sh-4, but it did not work. How can I add the language, but show that it is not my native? Macedonian(talk) 02:17, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Could you also take a look at the contributions of Emir Arven: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Emir_Arven]? Especially take a look at his changes of the Petar Petrović Njegoš article, and tell me what you think about him. I personally think that he is a Greater Moslem propaganda spreader. HolyRomanEmperor 14:46, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I did not manage to see many of his contributions, but from the ones I have seen, I can agree with you. Some of his "claims" seem very questionable. Macedonian(talk) 02:17, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I also need help with the Duklja article. It's about George Voiteh; I don't how his name sounds (or better, sounded) in Macedonian :( Could you help? HolyRomanEmperor 15:41, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

It sounds: Ѓорѓи Војтех (Gjorgji Vojteh, as it is read on Serbo-Croatian language). I have studined about the guy in primary school. He actually is regarded as our national hero. Macedonian(talk) 02:17, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] hello

Let's take yourself as an example - you don't self-identify as Greek, right? And you wouldn't want to be called Bulgarian or Serbian, would you? (this is probably my last try to explain to you that thing). +MATIA ☎ 10:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah Matia, that is truth. I self identify as Macedonian (nationality, ethnicity, citizenship and all other category). Also, 90% of the reliable sources do the same. Actually, any other identifying attemp different than this one can only be offensive and nothing else.
Why you ask? Macedonian(talk) 02:28, 4 December 2005 (UTC)


That wasn't really nice to say, Matia; he has the right to declare him however he wants (a Clingon, a Mongolian; it doesn't matter) P. S. I still need that George Voiteh part. HolyRomanEmperor 16:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay, my friend. I just posted the part you need little above. Please ask for any further assistance you need. Macedonian(talk) 02:28, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

While HolyRomanEmperor is somewhat justified to jump into conclusions (I'd advise him, the next time to check related previous discussions before assuming that I meant this or the other), I thought that you would know why I am asking these. If someone was 1/8 greek for example, that doesn't make him a greek, unless he wants to be call this way (self-identification). I came here and wrote the previous example as a last attempt to explain about Arvanites not being Albanians (which you brought up again in a macedonia related talk page). I'm too tired of all these... take care. +MATIA ☎ 15:44, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Edit summaries

When editing an article on Wikipedia there is a small field labelled "Edit summary" under the main edit-box. It looks like this:

Edit summary text box

The text written here will appear on the Recent changes page, in the page revision history, on the diff page, and in the watchlists of users who are watching that article. See m:Help:Edit summary for full information on this feature.

When you leave the edit summary blank, some of your edits could be mistaken for vandalism and may be reverted, so please always briefly summarize your edits, especially when you are making subtle but important changes, like changing dates or numbers. Thank you.

This is especially important with articles on controversial subjects. Thanks. Jkelly 00:17, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I know. Checking my contributions, I am sure you would notice that I use the edit summary quite a lot. Actually, most often I use all the allowed characters to explain my edits.
Only times when I do not use this field is when I already explained my edits, but someone else changed them, so I once again make the same edits.
That is why I probably have missed some. It is possible, especially if I was in a hurry.
Anyway, Thank you for your post. It is nice to know that at least someone reads the edit summaries. :))
Take care, Macedonian(talk) 02:33, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Provisional UN name

I put this on the RoM talk page before I realised I should ask directly:

I wonder what reason you have to object to my edit which mentioned Macedonia is being referred to by the UN provisionally, calling it propaganda? It is factual, and indicates the temporary status of the FYROM designation until disputes have been resolved. I just thought it strange that you call it propaganda, when I am myself a Macedonian. Gorast 06:43, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Између осталог ;)

Па немаш зашто да вичеш, ето погледај, бугарски, хрватски, словенски, па пољски, па чешки...БиБиСи ће се затворити, док се македонски БиБиСи ће као обично с радошћу настављати.  :D (This isn't in reference to anything. I'm kidding, so to speak, ad hoc.) --VKokielov 04:20, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that the stories on Macedonian history mentioning Jovan Cvijić are a little POV. I mean; he did say that a large (not all) portion of Macedonia's population were Serbs; but he did recognize an independant Macedonian nation. May I also remind you that during those several decades, almost all Muslims, the Dubrovnikers, all Vlachs and even a large number of Croats declared themselves as Serbs (it was the period of Serbia's Golden Age, the uniting of South Slavs) Do you understand what I am trying to say? HolyRomanEmperor 18:54, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

His ethnic map of Macedonia: [7] Compared to the other (Greek, Turkish and Bulgarian) national ideologies; I think that this one is actually in favour of the Macedonians. HolyRomanEmperor 19:11, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Хех, зезнуо сам једну ствар. Споменуо сам на немачкој wiki irc-u о мојој администратури и би прихваћено као advertising. Неколико других корисника је исто тако, па сам мислио да могу да изјавим. HolyRomanEmperor 17:28, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] aromanian official in Macedonia?

Romani and Aromanian in Macedonia, where both languages were recognized as official in the Macedonian constitution of 1991. Is this true? The other languages were Macedonian, Albanian, Turkish, and Serbian. Bonaparte <smal l>talk 10:15, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Поздрав од Србија

Поздрав од Србија! Не знам дали се навистина викаш Игор Штербински или не, тоа не е многу важно. Јас сум од македонско, српско, бугарско и цинцарско потекло, и дедо ми се пресели во 1927 год. во Србија, и поради тоа имам српското презиме. Моето име на Википедија е Zikicam, што е скратено од Жикица Милошевић. Елем, да сме останале во Македонија, сега би биле Милошевски :) Гледај сега што сакам да ти порачам - веке ми здодеа да се Бугари со нивната пропаганда "мочат" по Македонија и нејзината историја и јазик. И зато во статијата сакав на направам следното: ОК, Бугарите имаат своето видување. И Македонците исто така. Јас сакав на направам едно старо-српско видување (мој дедо што ми го исприча, тој се изјаснуваше Србин до смрт), заради тоа да направиме равнотежа со Грците и Бугарите. Вака излезна да сите Македонци се Бугари, само се откажуваат. Мојата идеја е да се наведе 1. бугарска пропаганда 2. српска пропаганда 3. грчка пропаганда, како субјективните видувања, и 4.македонскиот поглед, како победничкиот. Така ке бугарските погледи и српските погледи да бидат во равнотежа. Ти реков, ми здодеа веке да читам бугарската пропаганда. И Србите и Бугарите сакаа да ни претворат во нив, и ни смениа презимињата и сето тоа. Ама Македонците секогаш биле Словени од Македонија, и земале српскиот или бугарскиот идентитет само под влијанието. Друго, кој го напиша тоа дека илјаде припадници на малцинства во Македонија биле уапсене? Дедо ми не рече ништо, а беше пречалбар што се секоја зима вракаше во Македонија. Много чудно. Ке го избришам тоа. И ке додадем презимиња и сменување на презимиња како посебен дел. Ајде во здравје, и ако Македонец удара на Македонце, нема од тоа ништо да се направи. И за крај, да ти кажам - многу ми е жално што Србија во 1912 не земаше целата Македонија, и Лерин, и Воден, и Солун, и Драма и Кавала и Горна Џумаја. Сега би се било Република Македонија. Само Србите ни дадоа слобода, и треба да бидеме благодарни за тоа. Срамотно е како се Бугари секогаш односуваа кон Македонците и кон Србите од Пирот, Врање, Ниш, Лесковац, Зајечар итд. Другиот дел од моете семејство е оттука, и ги асимилираа Бугари секој пат кога можаа! Zikicam 21:17, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can you help me?

Hey Macedonian. Since the last few weeks I was involved in a revert war on the English wikipedia on articles on cites in Northern Greece. I have continually by myself keep adding the Macedonian name of these cities right beside the Greek name in the Florina, Kastoria, Grevena, Kozani, Ptolemaida, Edessa, Greece, Kilkis, Naoussa, Nigrita, Veria, Serres, Greece, Drama, Greece, and Kavala articles. Unfortunatly, Greek users have outnumbered me are replacing Macedonian language with South Slavic, Slavic, Turkish, Bulgarian, or are deleting that part as a whole. I would deeply apreciate if you can back me up and support me on these articles. Fala, Macedonia

[edit] H e l p

Hello Macedonian, how are you? Vlatko has proposed the idea that Macedonians get to view their opinions, and "rewrite" articles. To save me explaining all the deatails, you can view our discussions here, here and here. --Daniel Tanevski talk 02:45, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Hi

Please see Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Macedonia if you can. --Bitola 15:02, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Здраво

Јас сум нов тука и сакам само да те поздравам. Твојата страница е одлична збирка на аргументи во корист на македонската кауза. Ќе ја користам во борбата за заштита на македонскиот идентитет. Уште нешто - приметив дека имаме "непријатели" кои го познаваат македонскиот јазик и читаат се што си пишуваат македонските корисници тука. Би те замолил да ми пишеш на nema_vrska(at)yahoo(dot)com како би го имал твојот маил за да може да контактираме кога нема да е пожелно сите да знаат што имаме да си кажеме. --Realek 02:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


Барање за Администратор за корисникот Khoikhoi. Можеш да гласаш на [8]. --Realek 16:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Straw Poll - Republic of Macedonia

Гласај тука [9] --Realek 01:09, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Makedonske Devojche

Do you think Makedonske Devojche is of huge enough cultural signifance to make an article about it? It was a very big struggle for me to find out the spelling of the lyrics on the web. Perhaps Wikipedia could be the place to share information like this on the web. Also, it's still a mystery to me about the origins. I would like all songs that are really well known in any culture to be documented on Wikipedia, not just the ones from Anglophone countries. — Донама 06:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Србокомунистички језик

Владал нашиот сръбски като майчин, а имал леки и бегли познания по български езк. Айде моля ти се господине южен сърбине, знам ги ваще работи. Вие македонците не знаете кои сте и що сте - "преки наследници на Александър" в същото време - славяни и нямат ни процент прабългарска кръв. Доказано е че във гените на всички славянски народи има еднакъв процент прабългарска кръв, защото те са се разселили точно там, където днес живеят славяни! Това го пише в редица руски и въобще - славянски книги и е утвърдено! Освен това не сте наследници на Александър Македонски и нямате нищо общо с древните македонци. Много ческо македонците ми казват "Македония има 12 - 15 000 година" ама май в Македония има проблем с математиката. Не може хем славяни хем "Александровска нация" - много нагло така ...

Освен това се говори че в България имало 3 милиона македонци - ако това е вярно, то всеки втори българин ще е македонец, защото българите в България сме 6.5 милиона - вие не може сами да се обосновите после изкарвате другите виновни, терористи (като Тито) и натрапници.

Също видях няква измислена страничка "Да заровим езиковия проблем" - в която се говори против Русия и славянщината - ами толкова ли сте глупави - Славяните са най-многобройната европейска раса и ако се обединим, ще сме господстваща сила. За сега обаче американските и други анти-славянски тайни служби правилно си вършат работата и разбиват славянските държави, като ги скарват много лошо - пример Сърби и Хървати - 2 братски народа, които сега не могат да се понасят заради чужди интереси или Македония и България - 1 народ, 2 държави! И македонците - не че знам в какво се състои тяхния "патриотизъм" или по-точно - патриотарство, но ксенофобията ги е завладяла и както и гърците са се превърнали в зли хора, за разлика от албанците, които не са зли но са прости и диви и ги превземат!

И последно - трябва да сте благодарни на сърбите че мафиотизираните им тайни соц. служби още вършеят в Македония като башибозуци и разпространяват българофобията. Пирот, Ниш и Враня са български градове с огромно изключително българско население - от тамошния им диалект сърбите НИЩО не разбират защото това е роден български език!

Господ си знае работата и нищо не оставя безнаказано! 84.252.58.133 15:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

You say you are a Macedonian. Realy, have you ever open a book of history? no!Only propaganda.When you call your slavic-barbarian country MACEDONIA ,you should wash your mouth because of blasphemy.You should learn Gnothi s'auton, to see truth and stop living in a huge lie. The point is that you don't know History.-ΕΙΣ ΑΛΗΘΙΝΟΣ ΜΑΚΕΔΩΝ

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