Talk:Mack Brown

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    [edit] 1998 Gator Bowl

    At the end of the 1997 regular season with UNC, Brown left for Texas and was not the Head Coach for the Tarheels in the Gator Bowl (played January 1, 1998). He is given credit for this win in the season record table for UNC. I have placed an asterisk beside this "bowl attendance" and an explanation in the section which tells of him leaving UNC prior to this bowl. If someone has a better idea of how to footnote this, I'd appreciate a clean-up. SuMadre 12:17, 13 January 2006

    [edit] Kwame Cavil

    "Under Brown's tenure, only one player (Kwame Cavil) has left the Texas team for the NFL Draft with any eligibility remaining." -- That may not be a true statement. Cavil was suspended by Brown before the Cotton Bowl. He may have been suspended for the entire next season as well. Wouldn't that make Cavil ineligible? --Egumtow

    I agree. I originally added the bit about Brown not having a player go to the draft with eligibility left, as Brown himself stated this in his interview with Texas Monthly a few months back. However, it was edited to include Kwame Cavil, and looking back, while it's likely he was suspended for his senior season, I don't think this was officially announced, so we have no way to prove it one way or another, so I left it in. --bbatsell | « give me a ring » 03:15, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
    Hi Bbatsell - I think you probably will already have seen this reference over at Vince Young, so this is more for other readers in the future. Here is a reference to Cavil leaving, which includes the phrase " Texas coach Mack Brown said he never tells players what to do if they are considering entering the NFL draft early."[1]. It seems to me to imply that it was Cavil's choice whether to stay or not. Johntex\talk 23:37, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Recent POV edits

    Recently, 68.100.66.254 has made the following edits: [2] [3]

    Looking at his edits, (and edit summaries), it appears that this user wishes to eliminate any and all criticism of Brown from the article, a POV change. The article in its previous state was, for the most part, NPOV. It listed his well-documented criticisms along with any factual basis for these, while also acknowledging his positive accomplishments. For example, this user made the following edit:

    Although Brown has never won a conference title as a head coach at any school, he has amassed one of the winningest active records in college football, and is credited with revitalizing the Longhorn football program.

    The first part of the sentence is most certainly factual, and serves to temper the second part of the sentence, which could imply more successful postseasons than he has actually attained.

    Although criticized for losing five games in a row to rival Oklahoma, Brown's Longhorns beat the Sooners 45-12 in 2005.

    The above statement was completely removed. This is obviously a VERY well-known bit of factual information, and has been a source of much of Brown's criticism. It even makes note of how badly the Sooners were beaten to end the streak, while it makes no mention of the even-worse beatings given to the Longhorns by the Sooners.

    When the article makes note of the notoriously demanding Longhorn fanbase, the user makes the following addition:

    Although his teams played for Big 12 titles, these detractors would only be satisfied if his teams were playing for National Championships instead. It looks like this year they may get their wish.

    In my opinion, this is clearly POV, and the last bit is downright unencyclopedic.

    In addition, the user made the following edit to the Dennis Franchione article: [4]. (I think that the use of the word 'floundering' is an attempt to inject POV into the article.)

    This user's edits have been reverted by multiple editors, and I made a post on the user's talk page broaching the subject following the first edit. The comment was not addressed, and the user continued to make POV edits. Overall, I feel that this article is very fair to Brown, and reflects Wikipedia's policy towards neutral point of view. I would like to ask for comments regarding this situation, from both other editors, and from the user above. Thanks. --bbatsell | « give me a ring » 06:28, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

    I didn't respond to your post because I didn't know how. The entry for Mack Brown has the appearance of one written by a somewhat disgruntled UT fan who is trying hard to appear to be unbiased. It is poorly written and could use some editing. Why would the first paragraph of an entry for a head coach with a 23-year coaching career have a sentence that talks about 5 losses to Oklahoma and a 45-12 victory in 2005. When profiling a career, it is useful to have some perspective. You may care that Mack Brown beat Oklahoma in 2005 and lost in 2004, but that is a fairly narrow snapshot for an encyclopdic entry don't you think. You will note that I removed the positive and negative portions of the sentence.
    I also made the following edit:
    Although Brown has never won a conference title as a head coach at any school, he has amassed one of the winningest active records in college football, and is credited with revitalizing the Longhorn football program North Carolina and Texas football programs.
    The first portion of the sentence seemed needlessly provacative. I think that it is beyond question that Mack Brown is credited with turning around the North Carolina and Texas programs. Why does the sentence only refer to the Longhorns? Why did you delete the reference to North Carolina? Again, perspective is lacking.
    The entire "Criticism though 2003" section looks like it was drawn from Hornfans. I assume the heading (Through 2003) is was inserted because these "criticisms" (Mr. February, etc.) don't seem as valid after 2003. If you want to retain the section, it should be entitled "Criticism of Mack Brown" without some attempt to make it appear more valid by limiting the temperal scope.

    Although his teams played for Big 12 titles, these detractors would only be satisfied if his teams were playing for National Championships instead. It looks like this year they may get their wish.

    In my opinion, this is clearly POV, and the last bit is downright unencyclopedic.
    The edits merely try to make the sentence, which should be deleted in its entirety, factual. Mack Brown's Texas team played for the Big 12 in 2001 and will again in 2005. Prior to the edits, the sentence implied that his teams only played in the Cotton Bowl and never for a Big 12 title.
    In my opinion, that entire section is downright unencyclopedic. --User:68.100.66.254
    Thanks for responding. I apologize for jumping the gun on you, but I think you can see where I'm coming from - an anonymous user deletes major portions of the article without any justification in the edit summary, then future edit summaries were largely argumentative. Now, it's clear that you want to help advance the article, and I think that's great, because I do think that the article needs work. I'd recommend registering for an account here (it's very easy - don't even need an email address ;), so we can work together on the article. --bbatsell | « give me a ring » 00:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

    Thanks will do. I would be happy to work with you on this.

    [edit] Would like a change

    "Of course, Texas has yet to beat a "decent team" since beating Ohio State in the second game of the season (The win over Texas Tech cannot really count because their ranking is based on wins in the same weak-ass conference as Texas'.) While Texas is probably a solid top ten team, one can't help but wonder what their record would be if they played in the SEC or ACC conferences. Once again, the BCS stands to be totally embarrassed if Texas loses as badly at USC as many think they will."

    While the Big XII may be weak this year, it might best be put another way. Thanks. -- User:rmt2m
    Oh my goodness, what a ridiculous chunk of POV bullshit. I've been needing to come back through this article and cull a lot of it, and I'll do my best to get to it in the next couple of days. --bbatsell | « give me a ring » 01:08, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    Thanks

    Neither Cedric Benson nor Derrick Johnson returned for the 2005 season, since both were drafted several months previous in the NFL draft.

    [edit] 2004/2005 game by game listing

    Is this really necessary for an article about the coach? I'm pretty sure it'd be a lot more effectively conveyed if there was just a brief summary about the season / just a link to the season's article. Just a thought. AlanzoB 16:55, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

    I agree. I took them out. Johntex\talk 20:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] What's his name

    I've seen his name listed as William "Mack" Brown, implying that "Mack" is a nickname. The UT directory lists him as William M Brown. Is his middle name Mack? Ydorb 19:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

    I just looked up his driver's license by birthdate in a database released by Texas DPS. His full name is "William Mack Brown". However, I can't cite this as a source as it is a private subscription database. —bbatsell ¿? 20:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
    UT Directory shows his name Corpx 16:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Is this true? any evidence?

    After thinking about it, he met with his players and promised them that his future was at North Carolina.

    I have never heard this, but seeing how it could be true I will not delete it. Is there any evidence to back it up?

    Nothing that I've heard of Corpx 16:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
    There's some serious POV in this section, e.g. "No Tar Heel fan has ever forgiven him." According to his autobiography, he did meet with UNC players prior to Texas making him a job offer to tell him that he was staying (Gary Barnett was the heavy favorite to get the job according to at least one rumor at the time). However, according to his autobiography, he met with them again prior to the details becoming public, telling them among other things not to transfer away from UNC. I'll try to have the page numbers when I get home; I'll have to thumb through it to find out where it is. --Rimbo 00:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Better Picuture

    The current pic's cropped and way too small. I took this pic with him at the FEC and I think it'd be better for the article. Let me know. Corpx 16:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Season by season summary?

    Is this necessary? I think a section about his career at UT should be sufficient. I'm looking at other coaches like Pete Carroll and Joe Paterno and Bobby Bowden and Bob Stoops and they're all done this way. Corpx 06:13, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

    • In my opinion all those other articles are far too brief. I don't think we need as much depth about his early positins, but I prefer a breakdown of each season for Brown's current team, the Longhorns. Johntex\talk 00:49, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] The neutrality of this article is disputed

    The article contains many unsubstantiated criticisms that are derogatory not factual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rgwilliams (talk • contribs) 20:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

    • We definitely want the article to be factual and neutral. Can you please list some specific problems? Thanks, Johntex\talk 03:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Article

    It almost doesn't seem like this article is unbiased and the many season sections towards then end seem very much like they are simply describing the seasons of the football program instead of referencing or referring to the coach which is what the article is supposed to be about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.253.199.92 (talk) 05:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

    • Please point out what you believe are biased sections or statements so we can all work on fixing them. As to the season sections - we are highlighting his most successful seasons which are also the seasons he is most famous for. I'm sure they can be improved, but I don't see a big problem. It is difficult to separate the man from the program he leads. Johntex\talk 03:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)