Talk:Maciej Giertych

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.

Biography Portal

Start

This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]

This article is supported by the Politics and government work group.

Creationism Portal

This article is supported by the Intelligent design WikiProject.

This project provides a central approach to Intelligent design-related subjects on Wikipedia.
Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.

Start

This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale.

Mid

This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.

The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

For Rada Konsultacyjna see : http://polityka.onet.pl/162,1215008,1,0,2490-2005-06,artykul.html
http://www.myslpolska.icenter.pl/index.php?menu=kraj&parStrona=1&nr=2005071718266 --Molobo 16:01, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Molobo, could you explain what "homosexualism" is (as opposed to homosexuality)? I take it its something similar to "moral relativism"? Or the opposite of "creationism"? (as in "Giertych opposes homosexualism, but adheres to creationism"?) Please do enlighten me some time. I am also curious to learn about any "ban on purchase of land in Poland by the Germans". --Thorsten1 18:41, 22 July 2005 (UTC), updated --Thorsten1 11:49, 23 July 2005 (UTC).

PS: I will clean up after you, but not now.

The ban in question is a fact-currently foreigners are prohibited from buying land in western regions of Poland.As to homosexuality you can discuss this on its page.--Molobo 12:03, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

"The ban in question is a fact-currently foreigners are prohibited from buying land in western regions of Poland." That is what I wanted to hear from you! For "Germans" read "foreigners", for "Poland" read "western regions of Poland". It is possible that Giertych proposes to extend the ban to all of Poland (not just the western and northern regions) for Germans (but not for other foreigners), although this would be news to me. At the moment, however, there is no such ban. You might want to consider changing your wording accordingly in order to present Giertych's views correctly.

"As to homosexuality you can discuss this on its page". Why should I? "Homosexualism" does not have any page on its own, it just redirects to homosexuality. The word itself occurs neither on this page nor on its talk page; neither did you contribute to it. Quite apart from that, I was asking you a question, regarding your use of a particular word on this page - not regarding other people's uses of other words on other pages. If you refuse to provide a plausible explanation, your edits will be removed or edited towards NPOV. --Thorsten1 12:47, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Why should I? " Because it deals with this topic, basic knowlegde is enough to acknowledge it should be discussed there.I changed the word to satisfy you.However you demands were quite silly as neither did I put the word in the first place nor did I edit it.Furthermore your statements about changing the subject to NPOV are quite ridiculous since you have expressed your obsession about the enviroment LPR exists in on several occasions.--Molobo 13:18, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

"Because it deals with this topic, basic knowlegde is enough to acknowledge it should be discussed there." I'm afraid I am not sure I know what you mean. It does not matter to me whether or not you originally put in "homosexualism" - what counts is that you reverted my change from "homosexualism" to "homosexuality", and also removed the quotes I put around "homosexual lobby". Whoever came up with the word in the first place - I grant they were simply under the influence of some lingual interference, as homoseksualizm is a perfectly correct Polish word. In English, however, "homosexuality" is the neutral term, whereas "homosexualism" has a tangible homophobic connotation - which is why I challenged you to clarify your point. Anyway, thank you so much for cooperating.

Regarding my alleged "obsession about the enviroment LPR exists in": I confess to having an obsession regarding correct and neutral information on Wikipedia. As I explained earlier on - I suppose that is what you are referring to - for me, on Wikipedia ratio should come first, everything else, including fides and patria, afterwards. If this clashes with what LPR supporters or other "faith-based" editors happen to believe - too bad for them, really. --Thorsten1 13:56, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Follow-up: Molobo, it seems I was thanking you prematurely. I'm wondering why you said "I changed the word to satisfy you", when after your recent edit the article still says: "Maciej Giertych opposes lifting the ban on purchase of land in Poland by the Germans, homosexualism"? I thought we had agreed that

the proper word is "homosexuality", not "homosexualism";
unlike your wording suggests, the ban on on land acquisition applies to foreigners in general, not just Germans in particular; and it does not apply to Poland as a whole, but to a part of Poland.

By keeping your promise, even if belatedly, to un-NPOV your above wording, you can demonstrate that you do not intend to contaminate Wikipedia with false and/or biased information. My advice is to use this chance. --Thorsten1 16:45, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Frankly I never experienced word homosexualism as "homophobic" so please point me to a neutral article will show it as vulgar and offensive word.As to ban on sale of land the issue is Maciej Giertych's views on the subject not the discussion of present law.You are welcome to start an article on law itself and reasons for its existance.I would advise thought to keep neutral instead of presenting a biased view.--Molobo 15:57, 24 July 2005 (UTC) Wikipedia btw lists "homosexualism" as synonym of homosexuality although rarely use, and by all means not offensive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia --Molobo 16:02, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Frankly, I am not surprised you "never experienced word homosexualism as "homophobic" because evidently you were not much exposed to the English language yet. As your language skills improve, you might find out that the "ism" suffix is commonly associated with an ideology - in this case the alleged "ideology of homosexuality". Thus, the conscious choice of "homosexualism" over the much more common and undisputably neutral "homosexuality" usually indicates criticism of homosexuality. This does not stop some people, who may or may not be aware of its connotation, from using the word "homosexualism" as a mere synonym of "homosexuality"; but as you say yourself, this happens very rarely. Most people who use "homosexualism" use it more or less in this way: "An ideology that holds that homosexuality is a permissible and desirable portion of a wide range of different types and equally valid expressions of human sexuality; a belief system that advances special rights for homosexuals, such as the right to perform homosexual acts in public view" [1]. BTW, thanks for pointing me to the mistake on homophobia - I might see to that some time.

On the other issue - so you are saying that, as per my above wording, "Giertych proposes to extend the ban to all of Poland (not just the western and northern regions) for Germans (but not for other foreigners)"? Even if that were the case - I wouldn't be too surprised, although I haven't heard about it yet - this simply isn't what your wording in the article says. It says Giertych "opposes lifting the ban on purchase of land in Poland by the Germans". This means a) that there is a ban on land purchase in Poland concerning Germans in particular, and b) that Giertych opposes lifting that ban. This, however, is not the truth. If it is not what you mean to say, I urge you again to correct your statement accordingly - otherwise you expose yourself to criticism that you are shlepping in information that is not only clearly POV, but just plain wrong. --Thorsten1 19:51, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Then I see nothing wrong in stating that Giertych opposes homosexualism.You claims aren't really about linguistic ability but about your POV which not everybody shares.--Molobo 20:20, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Removed the part of opposition against Polish-USA ties.Maciej Giertych supports such relations :http://ks.sejm.gov.pl:8009/kad4/040/40402009.htm "Stosunki ze Stanami Zjednoczonymi mają miejsce szczególne. Uważam za bardziej prawdopodobne to, że to USA będzie nas bronić, niż to, że będą to robić Niemcy czy Francja." Relations with United States have a special place.I consider it more probable that USA will defend us then Germany or France.