Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group)

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The renaming poll of June 2005 (now closed) is archived at Talk:Macedonian Slavs/Poll. (See also Archive 2 for many comments arising from this poll.)


Contents

[edit] Ethnic Macedonians in Greece Pt. 2

The sources that estimate the M. minority at 200,000 (actually, only one of the sources. the other that uses the same number explicitly states that it refers to M. speakers) cite the Greek Helsinki Monitor as their source, however, the GHM report cited here gives the maximum number of M. speakers at 200,000 while mentioning that

"...those with a Macedonian national identity can be estimated to between 10,000-30,000. Indeed, the political party “Rainbow” which was created in 1994 and has campaigned for the recognition of a national Macedonian minority, received 7,300 votes in 1994 and 5,000 in 1999, two elections it contested alone: these figures correspond to some 7,000-10,000 citizens of all (not just voting) ages. One can estimate that besides this “hard core” there may be other citizens voting for mainstream parties that also espouse this identity, hence the above estimate.";

Would anyone be opposed to changing the estimates to 1,406 - 30,000 (or 10,000 - 30,000. I didn't notice which, if any, sources use 1,406) while mentioning (in a note or in a parenthesis, perhaps) that "up to 200,000 (are) bilingual speakers"? 3rdAlcove (talk) 10:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it should state 1,407-30,000 Macedonians with Macedonian national identity and 1,407-200,000 citizens with Macedonian origin, how does that sound? Mactruth (talk) 23:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
The problem 3rdAlcove is Greece has laws in its constitution that discriminate against non-Greeks so many "Bi-lingual" citizens maybe Macedonians who are afraid of losing their job or house or place in society if they confess they are Macedonian, many laws state non-Greeks are not allowed to have power or ownership or entrepreneurship etc, so the amount of Macedonians with Macedonian national identity (expressed) is up to 30,000 but Macedonian national identity (expressed and suppressed) may be up to 200,000. Mactruth (talk) 23:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
No way - and how does up to 200,000 citizens with Bulgarian origin sound to you? Just to check if you like the other POV. --Laveol T 23:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually the source states "200,000 Macedonian speakers" ie Slavophones from western Greek Macedonia (eastern and Thrace would fall under "Bulgarian speakers", right?). Obviously their ultimate origin can't be verified and we do know that the majority express a Greek identity. 3rdAlcove (talk) 06:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Just a question why was the original estimate changed from 200,000 to 30,000. The helsinki report was just one of the various sources which fell in between the 1,4060-200,000 benchmark. If used alone then 30,000 would be appropriate to list under the estimate. Until the greek government does an official ethnic survey then we can add the official number. also the 1406 number is the citizens from ROM. I cant see why the original estimate is not bieng reinstated?? PMK1 (talk) 06:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Like I said, I looked at all the sources (if I overlooked any, please point them out to me). The two sources which mentioned the max, 200,000 estimate cited Helsinki as their source; Helsinki in turn speaks of "200,000 Macedonian speakers, 30,000 having an ethnic Macedonian consciousness". The 200,000 as a max estimate belongs to Macedonian language, but not here. Again, if I overlooked a particular source, please do point it out. 3rdAlcove (talk) 06:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually 2, the book by peter hill which puts the figures at over 100,000 to 150,000. The britannica extract. Oh, and also the minority rights.org references the helsinki monitor from 2001, not 1994 when the Macedonians in greece publication was published. a lot could have changed in 7 years. I think unless you can find a reference from helsinki which is newer than 2001 we will have to reinstate the old estimate.PMK1 (talk) 07:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I believe I did notice the Britannica reference but I figured it was linguistic since it gave a number of 200,000 (roughly; it uses percentages). Doh. Could you post the relevant Peter Hill passage? 3rdAlcove (talk) 08:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Well Britannica is refering to ethnic composition. I dont actually have the peter hill book with me but if i get it again i will post it. Also just because the number is 200,000 does not mean it innacurate, until there is an official survey we will never know. Once again it seems that the macedonians are having the lowest possible estimate? Also do you have a newer reference sugesting other than the 2001 reference? PMK1 (talk) 12:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I found a helsinki monitor report here Thus, the 200,000 estimate for the Macedonian community seems reasonable. I needn't say no more.PMK1 (talk) 13:06, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Apart from the good fun that GHM reports give me (Dimitras, Karakasidou and co.), perhaps you should read the top of this section first and see what 3rdAlcove says?--   Avg    13:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the report says: "Thus, the 200,000 estimate for the Macedonian community seems reasonable, also in view of the fact that the -naturally conservative- prefects of Greek Macedonia estimate the ‘idiom’ speakers at some 100,000 (Financial Times, 4/11/1992), also the estimate of the Jyllands Posten correspondent (17/7/1993). Among them, a minority of a few tens of thousands, a figure growing since the beginning of the recent ‘Macedonian imbroglio’ (Karakasidou, 1993:20), have a non-Greek consciousness"
200,000 = linguistic, few thousand = ethnic Macedonian consciousness. Drop that victim mentality, by the way; no one is oppressing you here. 3rdAlcove (talk) 13:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Who's to say they dont identify as macedonians, i mean they are all estimates. Please clarify for me why the 200,000 estimate is acceptable even though it is more common then c30,000???PMK1 (talk) 04:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
All Slavophones do identify as Macedonians, but not your kind. And we're anyway using an inflated estimate from a POV source as I've mentioned many many times. The total population of Florina and Kastoria prefectures together is barely 100,000 (reminder, the population there is overwhelmingly Hellenophone, Slavophones are a small minority).--   Avg    11:04, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
And the guy, even after been given sources, starts what seems like a POV-fork already. Aegean Macedonians. Of course an estimate of 10,000 - 200,000 is mentioned. 3rdAlcove (talk) 12:38, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
@ AVG, no they dont! What about slavophones in thrace why would they identify as macedonians? Overwhelmingly hellenophone? You must be visiting another florina?. PMK1 (talk) 07:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
No, you must be. Florina is overwhelmingly Greek-speaking nowadays, even if many of its inhabitants of local Slavophone origin retain a passive understanding of Slavic. Yes, a century ago the predominant language was what was then known as Bulgarian. So? In Thessalonica it was Spanish, and in Smyrna prior to 1922 it was Greek. How does that relate to the situation today? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 07:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I've suggested to someone before you to do the "main square" test. If you're so sure, go to Florina's main square and speak Slavic. I take no responsibility for whatever happens next.--   Avg    17:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
To be fair, they'll most likely respond to him in Slavic. Now, if he shouts anything pro-"Macedonian (ethnic group)", hmm, I'm not sure. Since we're on the topic of chit chatting, it pisses me off to no end that they completely ignore everything said by the "Other". 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:38, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
You're right, by "speaking" I meant "speaking his mind". If he says zdravo, people will say zdravo, although most people won't understand it anyway.--   Avg    18:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Don't overstate your case. ;) 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Well I was last in Florina some weeks ago and I've been quite a few times. Unless all people are fully bilingual, I didn't notice even the slightest hint of accent to anybody I've spoken to (in Greek). Obviously I'm not saying that nobody is Slavic speaking, this is absurd. However most Slavic speakers are at villages outside the city and it's not THAT easy to find one as our northern friends would lead us to believe.--   Avg    19:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the area around Florina (though I'm not certain about the city itself) is certainly bilingual. The newer generations seem to retain knowledge of the language (probably will change in the future), though they use Greek amongst themselves mostly. Entirely anecdotal, so never quote me. ;) (this is awfully off-topic, btw. would anyone mind if I removed most of the section?) 3rdAlcove (talk) 19:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Probably should be moved - but to clarify: I'm in Florina and I ask some random guy how to get to Kastoria (Vo koj pravec e Kostur?) and he will possibly (probably?) point and say "Vo toj pravec". But if I ask if there are any ethnic Macedonians here (Ima li Makedonci tuka?) I will get punched in the face. BalkanFever 11:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
The answer, if it is indeed in Slavic - Greeks tend to prefer English with foreigners - will probably be something alone the lines of Да, има ли Македонци тука, of course, but not the kind you mean. Unless, of course, you're such a κωλόφαρδος that you actually bump into one of the 3% of the Florina electorate that voted for Виножито in 2004 (still, the highest percentage in the country by far). ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 11:49, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
You mean "(Da) ima Makedonci tuka" ("li" is used in interrogatives). BalkanFever 11:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
No, he means "Да, има многу Македонци тука. Не намиране се други Македонци навсякъде." NikoSilver 00:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Maybe I should rephrase my question. What would happen if I asked "Дали има наши тука?" ? Btw can you translate your Pomak? Looks like: I don't something they are different Macedonians everywhere". What were you meaning to point out? BalkanFever 03:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
See below. What is nashi? Is it dopioi/locals? NikoSilver 09:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Who would have thought that greeks were so interested in the Slavic langauges? :)!PMK1 (talk) 06:02, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

lol, pardon my ignorance... The guy says: "Yeah, we got lots of Macedonians here. There aren't any other kind anywhere." Of course, he is one of the many partisans there, but that's what you'll probably hear. What I'd like you to hear is: "Yeah, we got lots of Macedonians here. Is this the kind of Macedonians you refer to?" NikoSilver 09:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Наш is first person plural possessive; "our". Наши, roughly translated, means "our kind" (referring to people), so said by an ethnic Macedonian it means ethnic Macedonians. Well, I definitely won't be hearing Pomak in Florina, but is there an answer to my original question, i.e. when will I be punched in the face? BalkanFever 10:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Why don't you go there and find out? Probably no earlier than Nikos would get punched in the face for saying Macedonia is Greek in the middle of Bitola. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 01:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, that's funny, because asking if there are ethnic Macedonians in Florina is not the opposite of your situation at all. BalkanFever 09:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Who said it had to be? I know that you dislike the idea of Greeks in Bitola, but you don't seem to object to the term Greeks, so it is not quite comparable to what we're discussing here. I opted instead for a ubiquitously held Greek view that the other side finds at least as objectionable as Greeks find the idea of a "Macedonian" ethnic group, especially one within their borders. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 09:59, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
One by one then. I am in Florina. Во кој правец е Костур? gets me a map. Yes or no? BalkanFever 10:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


Next question. I am in Florina. Дали има наши тука? gets me a) a Slavic не; b) a Greek ναι; c) a punch in the face. Which one? BalkanFever 10:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I guess it would all depend on a. Whether whoever you bump into is actually a Slavophone, which is by no means a given even in Florina; and b. How said Slavophone will interpret наши - you could be just another Slavophone Greek, не? Or would your dialect/accent give you away as a Скопјанец, even though Bitola is much closer to Florina than to Skopje? I honestly don't know. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 10:38, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

(un)Speaking of "Greeks in Bitola", what happened to the Greek population around Manastir? Were they included in any of the exchanges? 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Im not sure of any exchanges? But in 2002 there was 422 greeks in Macedonia. Also what do greeks call the Greeks who live in the republic of Macedonia? Also reverting to your first comment (@ 3 alcove)'Would anyone be opposed to changing the estimates to 1,406 - 30,000 (or 10,000 - 30,000. I didn't notice which, if any, sources use 1,406) while mentioning (in a note or in a parenthesis, perhaps) that "up to 200,000 (are) bilingual speakers"? " I think that is a reasonable suggestion that up to 200,000 are bilingual speakers or are of Ethnic Macedonian origin. PMK1 (talk) 04:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
No. The sources are very clear that the majority of Greece's Slavophones do not identify as "ethnic Macedonians", so they cannot be grouped with the minority who do. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 08:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
oh, and @ kekrops, the macedonian speakers in greece will probably tell that you are from Republic of Macedonia, they speak macedonian in a certain way, with the emphasis falling on different parts of the words, and other dialectial differences. It is easy to tell a Aegean, Strumican and a Скопјанец (Skopjan) by the way that they speak and the use of words, and emphasis'. The difference between a speaker in Greece and on the Serbian border is quite astonishing.PMK1 (talk) 07:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
But they're all dialects of the same language whether they like it or not, right? Perish the thought... ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 08:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, yes regardless of the speakers identities they are lingustically dialects of the Macedonian diasystem. I would imagine that Greek would also have various dialects similar to the example i gave. Where by it would be easy to tell from where the person is from, depending on the dialect and accent??. PMK1 (talk) 10:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image

The pictures of Edeesa is from my family album,and is showing Macedonians in Greece!!! All the pictures are my own from my albums!!And i dont think that pictures needs to be sorced?!!! I did'not see that others pictures has sorces!!!!

Makedonij 09:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

If it is from your family album, then why does it have a French inscription? And how could you tell it shows ethnic Macedonians? I'd say it shows Greeks. The problem is that you have put tags that you have made the pics yourself and we really doubt this is the case. Have you been to the USA by the way? --Laveol T 08:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes it is and if you can't prove otherway,stop POV!!! The picture is private and it's showing Macedonians(ethnic)in Greece!!! You can allso find picture in a book of Helsinki right wach-Macedonians in greece!!!ISBN:960-86206-1-9 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Makedonij (talk • contribs) 09:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

So I perceive it actually isn't your own photo. Why did you say it was yours? And how do you expect us to believe that you have uploaded a single image that is in fact yours?--Laveol T 19:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] People

Please, don't add any of the controversial ones. Btw do you want me to upload some pics from the Republic to commons? I found some the other day.--Laveol T 19:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I've added some pics - you can see them on my commons account [1]. Cheers. --Laveol T 23:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Minority flags

I think that every minority can have a flag.Here is a link where all of flags of minorites can be seen.http://eurominority.org/version/eng/minority-state2.asp?id_states=9Makedonij (talk) 10:25, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Adding that they are also called Skopjans in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania, among other places

If this is about neutral point of view, then all the points of view should be expressed. It is a known fact that this particular ethnic group is called 'Skopjans' in Greece, Cyprus, Albania, part of Bulgaria and a few other countries. Adding such a clarification would improve the article and add more value to it. --87.221.5.107 (talk) 21:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean? They are called skopjans in bulgaria and albania. They aren't called skopjans, even the albanian government has recognised an ethnic macedonian minority. And many bulgarian source make reference to the Macedonians (ethnic) in Bulgaria. Skopjans is derogotory name, see WP:MOSMAC if you wish to clarify. PMK1 (talk) 06:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Ethnic Macedonian = Greek Macedonian. You mean Bulgaro-macedonian or Slavo-macedonian or Skopjan in any case. It makes no sense at all to use the word ethnic Macedonian if they are not ethnic Greek Macedonians.
That term is derogatory and only used recently by the Greek government. Mactruth (talk) 23:39, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Nope, it is used globally by Greek Population, not the government, and thus has to be added as well. All points of view habe to clearly been reflected. If you consider that some Skopjans find it offensive then tough luck, this is what they are after all. I think offensive would be to call them Bulgarians, which might in fact be what they are... who knows. The fact that they do not accept it does not mean it isn't truth. --87.219.84.239 (talk) 02:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
The term ethnic Macedonian is derogatory to Greeks. It should be removed. Preserving NPOV, no one actually uses that term. Most people call them Slavomacedonians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.219.84.239 (talk) 02:41, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hellenism in the Near East 1918.jpg

Hello! Someone tried deleting "Hellenism in the Near East 1918." I contacted the person who deleted the picture and got the following response:

Hi, the author of the image in question was George Soteriadis, according to the description page. According to one of our contributors,
The first search result for "George Soteriadis" on JSTOR is a 1942 paper (Eugene Vanderpool, "An Archaic Inscribed Stele from Marathon") which says in part "... Professor George Soteriadis, who was then doing archaeological work... . In the spring of 1940, at Professor Soteriadis's request, the Ministry of Education ordered the stone to be brought to Athens". Assuming it's the same person (which seems likely), then he has not been dead 70 years.
Ergo, the image was still in copyright in the United Kingdom (the country of origin, which has a copyright term of life of author + 70 years), and Commons policy requires images to be free in both the country of origin and the United States. Given that it was published in 1918 (again, according to the image description), you can upload it to Wikipedia, since WP follows US copyright law alone; this is pre-1923 and therefore public domain in the US. Cheers, Lewis Collard! (it's cold out there, but i'm telling you, i'm lonely) 22:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC) (please reply on my Commons talk page with further questions)

DO NOT delete the photograph, it is copyrighted within the United States and has fair terms. Mactruth (talk) 22:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)