Talk:Macedonian Slavs/Poll

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This poll is no longer open and is recorded for historical reference. Please direct any comments to the main discussion page.

[edit] The naming issue

This section is the description of the dispute. It is not intended for furthering the dispute or for general discussion. Please treat it is as an article, i.e. feel free to copyedit the text, add resources, etc., but try to keep it NPOV and take any comments to the comments section below.

There has been a long running heated debate about the name of the people who form the ethnic majority in the Republic of Macedonia, henceforth People X. The article has been called "Macedonian Slavs" for several years, but there were dozens of edit wars in other articles over references to People X, with groups of editors reverting between "Macedonian Slavs" and "Macedonians". The article details the dispute over the name and Wikipedia's involvement with the dispute should go no further than that. What is left to do is what we do in other similar cases: make the editorial decision about which name to use in this encyclopaedia, stick with the choice unless there are good reasons for individual deviations, and disambiguate where appropriate.

[edit] Agreed facts

There is a general agreement among editors, as well as historians and political authorities, on the following issues:

People X are a distinct ethnic group with a recognised language (the Macedonian language). Governments of some neighbouring countries have historically denied the existence of separate People X, but only Bulgaria and Greece continue to do so, officially.
People X inhabit a part of the historic region of Macedonia. They are the majority in the Republic of Macedonia, which includes about 38% of the wider region territory. There are also some people in Greek and Bulgarian parts of the region who identify themselves with People X, but their numbers are disputed.
People X are distinct from ancient Macedonians of Macedon. People X speak a Slavic language, while ancient Macedonians were either Greek or closely related to Greeks (depending on definitions which changed through time). It is plausible and quite possible that People X have inherited genetic material from ancient Macedonians, but most scholars would agree that they're not their descendants in a cultural or ethnic sense.
Greece rejects the use of the term "Macedonians" and "Macedonia" to refer to People X and the country that they inhabit. The country is recognised internationally as the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", although an increasing number of countries (including China, Russia and the USA) recognise it by its constitutional name as the "Republic of Macedonia". Most Greeks argue that the term "Macedonians" can only legitimately be assigned to the Greek inhabitants of the region of Macedonia, plus their ancient counterparts.
People X identify themselves as "Macedonians" (Македонски, Makedonski), although it is generally accepted that they were not identified as such prior to the 20th century.

Please see the lower sections of the poll for information about how this matter is treated by other international organizations, countries, media, books of references etc. There is a Google test, also.

[edit] Options

There are two names that are proposed for Wikipedia to use to refer to People X — "Macedonian Slavs" and "Macedonians". This is a list of arguments for and against each of them:

Why call People X "Macedonian Slavs"?

because it is the name of their choise at the beginning of their revolutionary struggle in 1943. The Slav-Macedonian National Liberation Front (Slavjano-Makedonski Narodno Osloboditelen Front, or SNOF) and its military arm, the Slav-Macedonian National Liberation Army (Slavjano-Makedonska Narodno Osloboditelna Vojska, or SNOV).
Avoids any ambiguity with other inhabitants of the region of Macedonia, as well as with ancient Macedonians.
The creation of a "Macedonian" ethnicity is an old commintern (1923)plan in order to create territorial claims against Greece
None has the right to steal a nation's history
It avoids the first step on a wider plan for the destabilization of the area
Because all school books of FYROM are filled with territorial claims against their neighbours (mostly against Greece & Bulgaria). All of these ultra-nationalist claims are based on the name of Macedonia. The first step is the incorporation (stealing) of the name.
Because until the late 40's the people X was self-introduced as Bulgarian. The creation of a new ethnicity was organized by the Jugoslav Communist party in the mid 40's.
the term Slav is not a slur and should not be offensive. "Macedonian Slavs" is not imposed by Greece. The Greek POV is that "Macedonian" should be completely avoided for describing People X as people X try to falsificate history. Many Greeks may not accept even "Macedonian Slavs" as a NPOV.
because the term Macedonia is also geographical and all the people who live in the area have the right to use it Greek-Macedonian, Slav-Macedonian or Albanian-Macedonian. As a standalone term describes only the ancient Macedonians.
because any people X has the right to call themselvses as they wish but they may not use a name already in use by others. (e.g. The French do not have the right to change their name to Germans)

Why call People X "Macedonians"?

It's what people X call themselvses and wish other people to call them.

Why not call People X "Macedonian Slavs"?

Any potential ambiguity of "Macedonians" can be easily avoided in prose. Ambiguity in article names can be avoided by following standard naming conventions.
Macedonian Slavs is also ambiguous, as it can refer to other Slavs living in the wider region of Macedonia, e.g. Bulgarians.
Many members of the People X feel that the name "Macedonian Slavs" is imposed by Greece and find its use offensive.

Why not call People X "Macedonians"?

Many Greeks feel that People X are appropriating the cultural heritage of ancient Macedonians by insisting on the use of the name.
The name confuses political, geographical and ethnic identities, in that many inhabitants of the Republic of Macedonia are not ethnic People X (mostly being Albanians instead); and that the geographical region of Macedonia, of which the Republic of Macedonia constitutes only about 40%, is inhabited by multiple peoples who might all be termed "Macedonians" in a geographical sense.

[edit] Resources

[edit] Google test

These are the results of the Google test. Note: While the usage on the Internet can provide useful pointers, it is not necessarily useful as the deciding factor, especially if numbers of hits are low or differences between options are small.

All the following searches were limited to pages written in English (at least "thought by Google to be written in English"), and exclude the pages with the word "wikipedia" — we're interested in what other people use:

Macedonian Slavs

"Macedonian Slavs" -wikipedia [1] 4,880 hits.
9 of the first 50 hits refer to "Slavs of Macedonia" (mostly in the context of Middle Ages). This is not meant to imply that exactly or approximately 82% of all hits for "Macedonian Slavs" refer People X.

Macedonians

To find pages where "Macedonians" refers to People X and not to Ancient Macedonians or Greek Macedonians, it was necessary to exclude a long list of words, those refering to Greece, ancient Macedon, as well as the New Testament.
- macedonian -wikipedia -greece -greek -ancient -alexander -testament -paul -site:.gr[2] returns 45,600 hits.
- 2 out of the first 50 hits refer to ancient Macedonians. This is not meant to imply that exactly or approximately 96% of all above hits are references to People X.
"ethnic macedonians" -wikipedia [3] returns 10,600 hits.

[edit] Governments

The following governments use the following names to refer to People X:

Macedonian Slavs

Romania (in the 2002 census results: "macedoneni slavi")
The state government of Victoria (Australia) (inconsistently) uses the term Slav Macedonians for the people and Macedonian (Slavonic) for the language, but this has been the object of controversy and litigation; other Australian state governments and the federal government have also used these or similar terms on occasion ([4])

Macedonians

Republic of Macedonia
Other former Yugoslav Republics
Australia (but see above also) ([5])
Canada ([6])
France ([7])
United Kingdom ([8])
United States ([9] vs. [10])

http://www.mpa.gr/article.html?doc_id=522728

[edit] International organisations

The following international organisations use the following names to refer to People X (It should be noted that UNO,NATO and EU (See 1) do not recognise the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name. The temporary designation F.Y.R.O.M. is used):

Macedonians vs Macedonian Slavs

Council of Europe ([11] vs [12])
European Union ([13] vs [14])
NATO ([15] vs [16])
United Nations ([17] vs [18]

[edit] Media

The following major media outlets use the following names to refer to People X:

Macedonian Slavs

Macedonians

BBC: regularly "Macedonians" [19], rarely "Macedonian Slavs" [20]
CNN: Mostly "Macedonians" [21], sometimes "Macedonian Slavs" [22]
London Times: Mostly "Macedonians" [23], sometimes "Macedonian Slavs" [24]
Google news (not a real news outlet, but rather a compendium of current online news): [25] vs. [26]

[edit] Works of reference

The following works of reference use the following names to refer to People X:

Macedonian Slavs

Encarta
Generally, printed matter published in any language before 1940 use the term Macedonian in order to describe the inhabitant of ancient Macedonia.
THE ACADEMY OF SCIENCES & ARTS of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia on a proposal published on May 13 1999 for the solution of the Albanian problem in the area accepts the term Slav Macedonians. It says between others ......The Paeonians, a part of the ancient Macedonians and other tribes in Macedonia were in the 6th century A.D. absorbed by the Slavonic Macedonian masses who laid waste the Byzantine state system, and at the time of the great European migration of peoples, were stabilized in this region. The Macedonian Slavs remained the basic ethnic factor in Macedonia.........

Macedonians

Britannica
CIA - The World Factbook [27]
The Columbia Encyclopedia
The Harvard Dictionary of Music
Philip's Encyclopedia
The Macmillan Encyclopedia
Crystal Reference Encyclopedia
Penguin Encyclopedia of Places
The Companion to British History

[edit] Applicable pages on Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Naming convention

[edit] Comparable situations

[edit] Close parallels

The Belgians, a people of Germanic/Latin heritage, are called after the Belgae, an ancient Celtic tribe.
The Egyptians, an Arabic speaking nation, are called after the ancient Egyptians, the founders of some of the first human civilizations. The original Egyptian language is extinct.
The Palestinians, as a term almost exclusively used to describe the Arabic speaking nation inhabiting the geographical region of Palestine, was usually referred to anyone living in Palestine: Arab, Jew or other, under the British mandate period from 1918 to 1948. The origin of the name is Egyptian or Greek.
The Lithuanians, people living in a minor region of the former mostly slavic Great Duchy of Lithuania. Litvins is an old-fashioned name for the Belarusians, and many nationally-oriented people in Belarus object against the ethnonym Lithuanians.

[edit] Loose parallels

The Canadians, a people of English/French heritage, are called after the Huron-Iroquoian word Kanata, meaning "village", "settlement", or "collection of huts"
American, is a name commonly used to describe a citizen of the USA, (originating from the name of the Italian explorer Amerigo Vespucci), although the Spanish - speaking word considers this culturally aggressive, because the word in Spanish habitually includes the inhabitants of the entire New World.
The Russians - a people of Slavic heritage, are possibly named after the Varangian Normanic tribe called Rus'. However, this is opposed by most Russian historians. See Etymology of Rus and derivatives, for more information.
The Bulgarians, a people of predominantly Slavic heritage, are named after the Bulgars, a non-Slavic people of Central Asia. The Turkic etymology most often given for their name is Bulgha meaning sable and is of totemistic origin.
The Bosniaks, a Slavic speaking, predominantly Muslim nation, have collectively agreed in the early 90's that they should be referred as Bosniaks, although they have declared themselves and referred to as Bosnian Muslims before that. Two other nations inhabit the region of Bosnia and Herzegovina - the Croats and the Serbs.

[edit] The poll

The rules of the poll

This poll shall last for 14 days, until 00:00, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
To discourage socket puppetry, only users with more than 50 edits before 00:00, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) are eligible to vote.
If either option wins at least 75% of all votes, it shall be considered a consensually accepted choice which can only be overturned by consensus.
If either option wins at least 60%, but less than 75%, of all votes, it shall be considered a temporary editorial decision with the sole intention to prevent further edit wars. It shall be valid for 6 months after the poll is closed; after that the results of this poll shall be considered moot.
If no option wins 60% of all votes, the poll shall be archived and its results considered moot.

[edit] How should Wikipedia call People X?

The winning option shall be used for the name of the article (dissambiguated according to the naming conventions, if necessary) and for references to People X in other articles.

Vote by signing with ~~~~. Please direct any comments on other people's votes to the #Comments section below.

[edit] Wikipedia should call people X "Macedonian Slavs"

Keep this article at Macedonian Slavs; refer to people X in other articles as "Macedonian Slavs" unless inappropriate in the context.

I agree that there is nothing at all definitive about either term. However, as this term adds a modifier, it at least prevents confusion, and we should use the terms that our readers will search by and be least confused by. Geogre 00:19, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think both names have significant weak sides and are inappropriate in my case (I am a Slav and I come from Macedonia, so I am technically both a Macedonian Slav and a Macedonian but I do not belong to the "Slav Macedonian" nation - I am a Bulgarian). The reason why I anyway vote NO (I thought to abstain at first) is because I anticipate an incredible mess and confusion after the general geographical meaning "Macedonians" becomes unified with the ethnic one. The question does not regard so much the noun, as much as the adjective. Can someone explain to me how we are going to distinguish between "Macedonian" in the meaning of ethnicity, "Macedonian" in the general geographic sense, "Macedonian" in the meaning Macedonian Greek and "Macedonian" in the meaning of "Macedonian Bulgarian" in texts which include all four meanings (for example Macedonia)? As there is no sertainty that another suitable modifier will be adopted to replace Macedonian Slavs, I vote for the preservation of the present modifier - this being the only reason. VMORO 00:30, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
Considering that a clear majority of Macedonians do not identify as ethnic "Macedonians", the only democratic decision would be to reserve the name for Macedonians of all ethnonational persuasions. This would be consistent with the editorial distinction between Macedonia and the southernmost former Yugoslav republic. Theathenae 08:43, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
The region of "Vardarska Banovina" (FYROM) has no geographical connection to the area(s) historically known as "Macedonia" since 700BC. As it is known it was baptised as "Macedonia" by a Serbo-Croat communist ruler after WW2. Similarly, the Bulgarian-speaking minority that inhabited the region, was baptised to "Macedonian" and thus a Slavic Macedonian nation was created. Apart from those facts, the current region of Macedonia is inhabited by many different ethnic groups, none of which has the right to monopolise the name (especially one that has no remote connection to it). The name Macedonian Slavs prevents the monopoly of the term "Macedonian", and respects every ethnic group that inhabits the area and feels culturally bound to its name. Miskin 10:19, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Keep Macedonian Slavs!"Macedonian" is Alexander the Great.The Slavs of FYROM are Macedonian Slavs ---Vergina
For well known and sufficiently estaliblished reasons. Odysseas 01:00, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Aloowing the use of "Macedonians" would imply a firm and definite position on the naming issue, as well as an (implied) acceptance of the theory of FYROM being a succesor of Ancient Macedon.Using the name "Macedonian Slavs" may be considered an indirect acceptance of Greece's stance on the naming issue.Between a highly problematic name and a moderately problematic one, we can only choose the latter.--Jsone 15:13, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Macedonian is ambiguous; it refers first and foremost in common usage to the ancient Macedonians; additionally, to modern inhabitants of the region, such as the Macedonian Slavs and the Macedonian Greeks. --Delirium 06:58, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC) Addition: I would be willing to accept Macedonian (nationality) or Macedonians (nationality), but strongly think the unqualified Macedonian should remain a general page discussing all people to whom that term has been applied. --Delirium 19:08, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
I think we should comply to Macedonian Slavs, this generally accepted historic and "political" term instead of inventing something new. An encyclopaedia of this kind with POV and accuracy theories is not the right place for political controversies, and of course is not a place for propaganda. If things are going to change on an international level then we should reconsider the usage of this term. But until now most of the ethnic groups are Slavic groups and this is history, European not Greek. If Macedonian Slavs are ashamed for being Slavs this is their problem. They try to flasify history, their problem. So do not bother with Macedonian Slavs. Just comply to national treaties. Someday Macedonian Slavs will undestand that slavic civilization was a great civilization too. Different, but great. Do not try to change history. History changes only by herself--Kalogeropoulos 08:39, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be funny if some nation living in Europe would claim the name "Europeans" for themselves just because they live in Europe. In a smaller scale that is the case with Macedonia. There are so many nations, but nobody can be called "Macedonian" as every inhabitant is also Macedonian. —Ger ak i 2005-06-18 T 11:16 Z Yes, why not. We use the word American exactly the same way Komitata
I think any nation can call themselves as they like. Therefore, I am for people X calling themselves "Macedonians". However, only for the sake of clarity, I think that we should refer to them as "Macedonian Slavs" in Wikipedia, therefore the Macedonians article should refer to "the inhabitants of the wider region of Macedonia throughout time", as should the certain word across Wikipedia and the article Macedonian Slavs should refer to people X, as should the certain word across Wikipedia. That way, we will avoid confusion and edit wars. The best choice of all, would be, however, IMHO to rename the article to Macedonians (nationality), if this is considered an option. --dionyziz 11:32, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
I think this is best, although I also think the article Macedonians should link more prominently to this one. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:03, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
What Delerium said. Etz Haim 11:54, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Keep, because they can't use other nation's heritage.Kapnisma 13:27, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Despite my deep wish for a third choice (Macedonian (republican)?) I will vote to avoid the unnecessary ambiguity with the ancient Macedonians, and with the Greek-speaking inhabitants of the Lower Vardar. Septentrionalis 20:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Delirium and Geogre. YannisKollias 23:00, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree with kalogeropoulos --Lucinos 06:36, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
We shouldn't invent new terms for political reasons or propaganda. Dada (in fact posted by El-dada (talk · contribs), 08:01, 21 Jun 2005; this was his first – and so far only – edit) (el-dada = user Dada in greek wikipedia --El-dada 10:15, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC))
I agree with Geraki and Kalogeropoulos --Gavrilis 08:34, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Delirium. --Nkour 09:22, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Also agree. The name refers to a much broader range of history and people than the current Macedonian Slavs, who have every right to call themselves what they wish, but substantially less of a right to hijack the name on wikipedia. Argyrios 09:28, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm a bit worried about the reasons given for some of the other editors' votes in this section, which seem more to do with nationalism than with the rights and wrongs of this Wikipedia article name. Nevertheless, I agree that the article is narrower in scope than the proposed new title, and should retain its current, more specific title. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:40, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I vote AGAINST both suggested solutions. But because the fool who started this poll did not provide this option. I am placing my vote in whichever section has the least votes. What is the point of an abstain vote, if it is not counted? Abstain should be considered as a "none of the above vote", and be allowed to weigh against either of the main votes. I almost agree with ChrisO. Macedonian slavs should be renamed to Modern Macedonians and the bit about ancient Macedonians in the Macedonians articles moved to a seperate Ancient Macedonians article. --Rebroad 09:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Kalogeropoulos, too. The citizens of FYROM have been claiming to be macedons [or macedonians if you prefer] for about the last 80 years. Anyone who studies history, or even anyone who just took a look at the various wikis regarding Macedonia can understand that the Slavic claims over those ethnic names are unjustified. Macedonia has almost a 2500 years of Greek history, from ancient times, through Byzantium, the Balkan Wars and until today. How can they call themselves Macedonians? Or as Geraki wrote, imagine a new small nation to arise, and claim for themselves the name Europeans. And such a change would contradict with other wikipedia articles. Matia.gr 11:47, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In addition to User:Delirium and User:Kalogeropoulos I wonder how we should react to a possible event when in the not so distant future the Chihuahua, Coahuila, Nuevo León and Tamaulipas states of Mexico proclaimed their independence and called themselves Texas and Texans. Having in mind past history, do they have the right to do so? Will the BBC's, Brittanicas, US State Departments etc of the world concur? --Ank99 12:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree with User:Kalogeropoulos. --Toredid 15:01, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I also agree with User:Kalogeropoulos. --(UNFanatic 18:11, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC))
Another vote for "Macedonian Slavs". Anything less is just too vague Sysin 19:51, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Use the term Macedonian Slavs as a more precise term than Macedonians. Diomidis Spinellis 20:05, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Use the term Macedonian Slavs Newcomer 20:33, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Macedonian Slavs for three reasons
1. they are defenitly SLAVS (...so the Slavs part is fine)
2. they live in an area of Balkans that was a part of The Macedonian Kingdom (...so Macedonian is OK too!)
3. Macedonians were in anthropological terms part of the Greek genre of Dorians (if i recall correcty) (but they cannot be called just Macedonian cause it is a Greek Words)--EleftheriosKosmas 22:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Keep the name for two reasons. Firstly, Macedonia is a much bigger region than the Republic of Macedonia and many of its inhabitants also refer to themselves as Macedonians without being Macedonian slavs. In the FYROM itself there are many people who are not Macedonian slavs. The change of the name would create too much ambiguity between all those groups. Secondly, as the people in question have called themselves Macedonians for a relatively short time and are by far not universally recognized under that name, changing the name would be too controversial for Wikipedia. -- Kostja 06:51, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ok if we are talking about the nationals of Macedonia then I would say Macedonians. Not only does the state refer to itself as Macedonia, but Macedonian is a modern slavic language. Many of the arguments above to call people X, Macedonian Slavs, seem to be based on taking one side in the controversy rather than being objective. I don't think it matters if the people in that republic have or do not have a sound historical basis to call themselves "XYZ". The fact is they do. If we applied geniuine historical basis as a litmus test, we woud be chaging the name of Belgians, Canadians, Egyptians (and goodness knows who else) who have taken the name of an ancient people they are not linked to. HOWEVER this article is about an ethnic group and not the nationality. The broader group is Slavic and the specific one is pertaining to the Macedonian region irrespective of modern borders Dainamo
Cyberjunkie ^TALK 11:59, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This vote seems kind of dumb...but I guess my reasoning is, the ancient Macedonians may not have been Greeks, but they weren't Slavs either. Adam Bishop 15:24, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Macedonian slavs is a political term andit applies to the true nationality of these people. They are macedonians because they live in the ancient macedonian territory and slavs because they were a part of the yugoslavian civilization. Also the residents of the greek part of maccedonia must be called macedonian greeks.Finally the term Macedonia can refer to the geographic region that greece and the macedonian slavic republic share and in history to the ancient macedonian unite civilization. kafrileontas
I also support this option. Although I am Greek and one might say I don't have a NPOV, it isn't so. I support this option because I find most arguments under "Why call People X "Macedonian Slavs"?" valid and reasonable. Calling people X "macedonians" would be like calling the French Gauls. The termn belongs to a different era, when the political situation in the area didn't clash with its geographical division. Macedonia is geographically wider than FYROM, and thus people X should be the Macedonian Slavs. As for socket puppeting, I am a member of the Greek Wikipedia (Δνόφος) and have much more than 50 edits there. --Dnofos 15:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
--Kaster 21:33, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ancheta Wis 23:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) The alternative conflates a known name of a historical region. If the current names are kept distinct then a rational renaming can occur later, without confusing the current peoples with a perfectly good name in history, the people of Alexander the Great).

[edit] Wikipedia should call people X "Macedonians"

Keep this article at Macedonians, Ethnic Macedonians, Macedonians (ethnicity), Macedonians (nationality) or other properly dissambiguated name; refer to people X in other articles as "Macedonians" unless inappropriate in the context.

This seems to be the most reasonable option. Term "Macedonians" is widely accepted, both colloquially and academically and will have a clear meaning in most contexts. We can address Greek sentiments by clearly clarifying whom we are talking about when writing about Macedonians if there is a need to distinguish between the region, it's past, and modern Republic of Macedonia. --Dejan Cabrilo 00:32, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
While the UN and NATO fully recognize the term "Macedonian" to describe ethnicity, the EU is officially neutral; however the term "Macedonian" is fully accepted to describe one's ethnicity within the EU administration. There is no ambiguity in international terms as to what ethnicity the term represents at present. The historical dispute and the Greek POV can be easily integrated into a text about present-day "Macedonians." Ivica83 02:22, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Macedonians" is the term that is exclusively accepted in major international institutions, and widely accepted in the media and the common speech. People X always declared themselves as "Macedonians" in all foreign countries where they live, and their statement was included in official census results, so the term "Macedonians" is recognized as their identifier. Practical problems can be resolved by disambiguating. "Macedonian Slavs" is a mild ethnic slur. --FlavrSavr 07:42, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Agree that we should use "Macedonians". We would not use "Iberian Latins" to designate the Spanish, even if someone disputed that the Spanish had any right to call themselves Spanish in the first place. Wikipedia has become seriously inconsistent with common usage and other reference sources by not using the Macedonians' own term to describe themselves. However, I think we should make a distinction between the modern and ancient Macedonians. I suggest therefore that we should use Macedonians to refer to the modern Macedonian people and Ancient Macedonians to refer to Alexander the Great's people. -- ChrisO 10:36, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
My vote goes for this option: Wikipedia should call people X "Macedonians". What ever is valuable in this article should be merged with Macedonians. That text itself is often problematic but at least it has a reasonable formal structure and seems to be open to improvement. I am not sympathetic to any adjectives noting "ethnic" as this is a non-scientific political and therefore POV abused term - we might as well have "Religious Macedonians". --Modi 19:16, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Funny you should say that, there is (or was) such as thing as the "Religious Macedonians." :-) -- ChrisO 19:47, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree "Macedonian Slav" sounds like an ethnic slur. I vote for "Macedonians," except in a clearly ancient context, where care should be made not to imply that modern Macedonians are their full, direct and uncomplicated descendants. "Ancient Macedonians" is a good way to handle it in disputed circumstances. For most ancient entries, however, "Macedonians" is much more natural and in line with scholarly practice. Lectiodifficilior 20:29, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think Macedonian is their nationality, they calls themselves this way so it is ok. Georgia is also a state in USA but we call people from Gergia in Caucassus "Georgians", not "Georgians of Caucassus" DeirYassin 15:43, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Common sense tells one that all the citizens of Macedonia are Macedonians. The suggestion that if some were Jews or of Turkish ancestry, that they would not be "real' Macedonians reflects an uneasy aspect of European history. Naturally, if the context is Greek, then "Macedonians" connotes those who live in the province of Macedonia, a designation that is commonly avoidable, as is "Epirotes". And in the 4th century BC, "Macedonian" has a different connotation. The discussion so carefully summed up here, deserves its own article, if it does not have onealready: the tensions over the name are factual thus encyclopediable. --Wetman 20:41, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Comment: Exactly. Common sense says that all citizens of Europe are Europeans but that does not mean that they belong to some different "European nation".—Ger ak i 2005-06-22 T 22:36 Z)
I agree with the arguments of Ivica83 and ChrisO, among others. "Ancient Macedonians" sounds good and neutral for the ancient (Greek) Macedonians. --romanm (talk) 00:47, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Support. Explanation here --Jpbrenna 06:58, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I make some rambling, sometimes facetious comments on my little discussion page. Let me be clear: I support Macedonian (nationality). Macedonian Slavs or Macedo-Bulgarians etc. is not what they call themselves. However, Macedonian ethnic self-consciousness and the Macedonian state are relatively new to the scene, and for Wikipedia to pretend they are the cultural or linguistic descendants of Macedon would be massive failure to apply intellectual rigour to our work (unfortunately, an all-too common occurence here). Allowing them to be listed as "Macedonian Slavs" or "Slavoskopjans" etc., all intended as perjoratives, would be innapropriate as well. Macedonian (nationality) is the best compromise between that and absurd nationalist Macedonian propaganda, like the webpage I once saw that claimed Alexander had invented the Cyrillic ("Macedonian") alphabet! --Jpbrenna 08:43, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It's what the people call themselves. Jonathunder 00:39, 2005 Jun 20 (UTC)
Keep as Macedonians to refer to people of the country of Macedonia (current), other stuff can be Alexandrian Macedonians, Ethnic Macedonians, Greek Macdeonians, Slavic Macedonians (Slavs of Macedonia), pre-Indoeuropeans of the Macedonian region... 132.205.45.148 18:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
So, where are descendants of old Macedonians? They disapeared? Contemporary Macedonian nation is Slavicized descendant of ancient Macedonians. But, not only that. If someone call himself in some way, I don't think that anyone can say that that person has some other name. --Millosh 21:57, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Support. I agree with the arguments of Millosh, among others. --M. Pokrajac 22:16, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia should call people X "Macedonians".--Popski 22:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
By my opinion ... Wikipedia should call people X - "Macedonians". This people have the right to be called as they feel themselves, and that's - Macedonians. At the other hand as 132.205.45.148 said (quotation): "As the ancient Greeks did not recognize Macedonia as a Hellenic nation, there is absolutely no point in regonizing the Hellenic Republic (Greece) claim to be the righteous owner of the term Macedonian. Since ancient Macedonia is non-Hellenic, any claims to ownership of the name (whose people were spread across the ancient world by Alexander himself) as exclusively Greek is a distortion of history. 132.205.45.148 18:36, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)" ... or read the same comment below at this page. -- DeeJay 23:40, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I am Bosniak, from Wikipedia in Bosnian language, and I agree with the arguments above. But first of all, I think that it is very rude if someone wants to impose a name to a nation, which is not excepted among that nation. It is called intellectual aggression.Emir Arven 23:51, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
i vote for no nation, but this time i will make exeption --Yillilan 00:04, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
My vote goes for people X as "Macedonians" and for people Y as "Macedonian Turks", because they can't use other nation's heritage. Alma Pater 00:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

people Y? slavs have no more right to be called macedonian than Greeks have.
I had formed no opinion prior to reading the above summary. I think the evidence that people/media/other encyclopedias use the word "Macedonians" more than the other term is overwhelming and so I vote to support the change. Ornil 03:17, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree with what Emir Arven wrote. Denying someone their national name is extremely offensive and wrong. Far worse than some minor misconceptions about Macedonian history that could occur with some uninformed readers. And besides, those things could be clearly adressed in the various articles related to the topic. That they're a slavic people can be explained in the article iteslf, for example. They consider themselves "Macedonians", not "Macedonian Slavs", and that's how most of the world knows them as too. Asim Led 04:45, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Support. --andrejj 05:11, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I vote for "Macedonians". --Zmaj 06:43, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
My vote is "Macedonians" - Wulfson 07:26, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Agree with the encyclopedias (except Encarta, which goes their own Microsoft way :) ) MvR 07:46, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Macedonians" of course.--Ctac 08:55, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Macedonian Slav" is Greek POV. People X are more broadly known as "Macedonians" even though they have no connection to the ancient people of that same name outside of nationalist fantasy. Grace Note 10:26, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Macedonians is something I've always learned at school, whether they were ancient (helenized) Maceds, or of Slavic origin --Dungodung 10:30, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I vote for "Macedonians". --SashaSt 10:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
--Gorann Andjelkovic 11:06, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
--Sasa Stefanovic 11:33, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Macedonians is the correct name of the citizens of Macedonia as a republic, doesn't matter Yugoslavian or not. Since they have chosen this name for themselves, then it is correct.Komitata
It is better to call people by the name that they use to describe themselves. So this article should be called "Macedoanians", atleast untill People X will not begin to call themselves "Macedonian Slaves" (or, "Former Yougoslav Republic of Macedonia Macedonian Slaves" probably :) Kneiphof 12:41, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Comment: Then why is the article about the German people not named die Deutchen? —Ger ak i 2005-06-22 T 22:36 Z
I give my vote for "Macedonians". --xJaM 12:53, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
My vote for name of "people X" is Macedonians. Why? Usually if some nation call themselves with some name, it is enough to call them so. If this is not enough, people X live in area that all agree is in place of ancient (province) Macedonia, so why not call them Macedonians? Because ancient Macedonia includes not only todays state of people X, but also part of Greece? And so Greeks who call themselves Greeks have more right to name Macedonians then other people or nation in adjacent country which shares the same ancient territory? It's absurd, and therefore has no place on Wikipedia. SpeedyGonsales 15:48, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Support. Wikipedia should call people X - "Macedonians". (btw. Ancient Macedonians were not Hellenic/Greek people.) Macedonians spoke a separate language from Greek, and Macedonia never embraced the city-state form of government. Commoners in Macedonia did not consider themselves Greek, and most Greeks regarded their northern neighbors as barbarians. However, Macedonian nobles learned Greek and identified themselves as Greek. Source [MSN Ecarta] Golija 19:46, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Comment: Wrong. Ancient Macedonians spoke a dorian dialect of greek similar to the one spoken in Sparta. —Ger ak i 2005-06-22 T 22:36 Z)
Support. --Matijap 21:47, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
-- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 22:21, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I am sure that Macedonian are more Macedonians than Greeks are Greeks (they are mostly Slavic, too), click on file an enjoy Media:Domatrios - Macedonian girl.mid :Domatrios 22:47, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
194.106.167.14 03:06, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)Some people wants to be called "Makedonci" . How somebody dare to interdict sobebody`s name?194.106.167.14 03:06, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Support --Dado 04:03, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Support. Use simple names. Grue 05:38, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Support. Why do we have disambiguation pages if we can't make two separate articles about Macedonians. --Joshua.84 11:12, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Support.--KoRnholio8 19:42, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Support - Macedonians --Djordjes 07:31, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Support - Use the English version of the name they call themselves, for Heaven's sake. CDThieme 23:05, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Support - call them what they call themselves, and what most of the rest of the world does too. No Account 23:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Abstain

I haven't had time to read through the whole kit'n'caboodle that's piled up since the last time we had this discussion, but I am casting a neutral vote immediately simply to try to sway the ratio of votes closer to the 60% mark. I am very much inclined to think that neither option is a real success in the short-term because we'll just keep having one group offended and whatnot. --Joy [shallot] 17:49, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pmanderson says that neutral votes aren't counted into the percentages - which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but if so, please attach my vote to the option with less votes in the end. :) --Joy [shallot]

This is really stupid, and it's the main reason that prevents me from changing my vote to "abstain" too. Etz Haim 23:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
My real problem is when historical or territorial claims are attached to the use of the term Macedonians. As long as the Macedonian Slavs keep in mind that they don't have that much connection to the ancient Macedonians as nationalists claim, and as long as people in general realize the lack of a strong link between the ancient and modern people, the use of Macedonian (nationality) can be accepted. But Macedonian (ethnicity) is an abuse of the term and is not to be accepted. Decius 00:52, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Totally agree with that, Decius. "Ethnic Macedonians" is very dodgy.Grace Note 10:29, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't want my abstain "vote" to be added into either side's total sum. I'm just stating here that I can support an article such as Macedonians (nationality), rather than Macedonians or Macedonian Slavs. Decius 01:12, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I wanted to vote on Macedonian Slavs, mostly due to comradership to fellow Greeks.

I am voting on abstaining because it looks like that a bunch of people (on all sides) are trying to use wikipedia to make a point (wolf-cries about "macedonian apes", "hellenes are trying to appropriateblahblahblah", "hailgreekmacedonia", "wegonnagogetKonstandinoupoliback" oops, wrong conversation :). IMHO, everybody should objerve international treaties when it comes to naming anything. I consider both sides coming into the poll with a bone to pick. It also looks like that those same people are using the guise of a "democratic" (Rule of the majority) poll to enforce their POV pushing. Wikipedia is not a place to make a point and it's not a democracy - it's a meritocracy at best. We're here to help write an encyclopedia that most likely will be the repository of all human knowledge, not draft a new international treaty on the name of a people. For these reasons I consider this poll null and void.

Hear hear! Although I voted above for "Macedonian" except in certain contexts I heartily agree that this is POV pushing, and getting out of control. The talk page for Alexander the Great just got defaced with an attempt to round up its (presumably) Greek-friendly contributors. The contribution page for Newcomer shows he's been going around to Greek-named pages generally with that message. (In this case, he hypocritcally accuses the other side of doing what he's doing.) Surely polls aren't an occasion to round up every countryman you can, no matter how slim their contributions to the topic. This reminds me of a prearranged ethnic street fight, where the leaders make sure to hit "their" bars and turn out all their drunk compatriots. Screw em both and get someone with no ethnic ties to decide it. Lectiodifficilior 06:56, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nod. This poll was a bad idea from the start. Let this issue to the neutral committee. --FlavrSavr 07:53, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

May I kindly ask who introduced the term "Macedonian Apes" in this talk page, and why are the Greeks to blame? The rest of the advocacy, as you said, it's part of another discussion, and IMO not at all representative of the situation. Etz Haim 11:38, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, you may. Just like Theathenae, you seem to be underestimating my honesty, just like you're underestimating my nation. Please see who objected first to this poll, who continued to do so, even in times when the "Macedonians" option was in the lead. As for the Greek blame, I never specifically blamed the Greeks, however this a question to Lectiodifficilor, I guess, and he has already answered it. --FlavrSavr 15:14, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A question for me? I'm confused. Do you mean that I'm blaming the Greeks? I am not. My example was someone trolling for Greeks, but it looks like both sides are doing it. Lectiodifficilior 20:35, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I was getting the impression that you only blame the Greeks, although, clearly both sides (we, too) are doing it. I personally send a request for support to the Serbian Wiki, when I clearly saw that everyone was ignoring the fact that the poll was going through a socket puppetry of a worst, ethnic kind. I could have posted on some other Wikipedias, the "Macedonians" side surely would have passed the census for a change of the current name. However, I haven't done that, that wasn't my goal. --FlavrSavr 02:41, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Apart from my personal dissapointment for the (self) provocative "Macedonian Apes" rhetory, there's nothing else I have against FlavSavr. This is not a question of personal honesty, or "underestimating your nation", which has nothing to do with the case. FlavSavr, let's try to be cool for the moment, and in the future we may me able to show the amount of esteem we have for each other. Etz Haim 21:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ok, let's be cool. Here's an explanation for my overly emotional reaction concerning the Apes proposal. It seemed to me that someone was trying to discredit me as a person (citing Theathenae: "people like FlavrSavr"), as if I was a nationalist of a worst kind, although I have heard of people X being a "Slavic crowd", "Aliens", "Conspiracy against Greece", "Irredentist towards Greece"... Actually, I laugh on nationalistic eccentrism of any kind, and the whole naming dispute seems to me to be quite absurd. I tried to answer on your wooden inscription case, it appears that I haven't saved. I will do that know, cooled. Peace. --FlavrSavr 03:18, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Voting about someone's name is stupid, but English Wikipedia is full of such stupidities. However, without FlavrSavr's asking for support and without support of people from Russian, Slovenian, Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian Wikipedias (we can ask for support people from Czech, Turkish, Polish, etc. Wikipedia, too) -- changing name of Macedonians would pass. As well as there would not be the question about sense of such kind of voting. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 20:47, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I support Chirs's proposal for solving such kind of problems. We should vote about principles, not about specific questions where politic confrontation can be highly involved. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 20:47, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is a paranoia voting! --Vergina 15:37, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Poll Comments

It seems that a fair number of the votes above are from people to whom the issue is close to heart. I wonder what the poll result would look like if these votes were excluded for reasons of non-neutrality! :> --Rebroad 08:07, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Outcome

Option 1: Continue calling people X "Macedonian Slavs"
- 39 votes were received for this option. Of these, 10 were discounted as invalid (see below). The final tally of valid votes was 29 votes.

Option 2: Describe people X as "Macedonians"
- 47 votes were received for this option. Of these, 16 were discounted as invalid (see below). The final tally of valid votes was 29 votes.

~~The outcome being a tie, the result of the vote is that the article and links to it shall remain as Macedonian Slavs.~~

From rules of the poll above:

If no option wins 60% of all votes, the poll shall be archived and its results considered moot.

Zocky 18:23, 30 September 2005 (UTC) Editing protected page to correct interpretation of the poll result.

[edit] Invalid votes for "Macedonian Slavs"

"To discourage socket puppetry, only users with more than 50 edits before 00:00, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) are eligible to vote."

Lucinos - has only 4 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th
El-dada - has only two contributions in editing history, both to this page
Gavrilis - has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th
Matia.gr - has no contributions in editing history prior to June 11th
Ank99 - has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th
Toredid - has only two contributions in editing history
EleftheriosKosmas - has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th
kafrileontas - has no editing history (apparently an anon claiming falsely to have a user account?)
Kaster - has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th
Theodoros - has no contributions in editing history prior to June 11th

10 votes counted as invalid -- ChrisO 00:07, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Invalid votes for "Macedonians"