Talk:M61 Vulcan
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[edit] Infobox Needed?
I think that the addition of an infobox would really make a world of difference in this article, but I've forgotten how and I'll be leaving soon, comments?205.209.70.189 14:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Most of these links are wrong. Need to check fighter aircraft.
Gatling gun contradicts this page by saying that the Vulcan cannon is not a Gatling gun. 149.167.217.130 12:25, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
- The M-61A1 Technical Order (Ref class FOUO) does call the weapon a Gatling gun or at least it is a Gatling type gun. This ref. was written by the folks in Calafornia who make it. 65.80.178.227 17:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] M61 in F104A and F4D/E
My qualifications: 730 hours and weapons officer in 104A; 2020+ hours in F4D/E as an instructor pilot and one combat tour. First, we had very few 104A gun problems in flying 10 firing missions a day 5 days a week. The most frequent problem was a double feed due to failure to extract an empty case. This did stop the gun and require removal and repair but was less than one every several months. The 104A gun was very accurate, with 3 mils dispersion. I boresighted and test-fired the airplanes on a 1000 foot test range so know whereof I speak. The F4D of course used the SUU23/A. It had about 10 mils azimuth and 8 mils vertical dispersion. Reboresighting the gun was a simple swift and accurate technique using the boresight mark on the nosegear door and a borescope. I myself never had a gun problem on either the 104A, F4D or the E. The F4E dispersion was 3 mils, like the 104A. Both aircrafts' internal guns held their boresight well. Using care, these guns could be sighted in within 1/2 mil. That's 1 foot error at 2000 feet, where the bullet pattern is 6 feet in diameter. The spool-up 'problem' is a chimera; we normally tried to fire 50 round bursts and that helped us. I have fired 300 and 600 round bursts, both from a SUU-23/A pod gun. The first was on a scorable range, achieving 100 hits on a 20 foot square target beginning firing at 4000 feet out. The second was for a firepower demonstration, laying down fire on a 50 by 100 yard patch of ground by gently using the rudders. Lastly, the M61 Vulcan gun is a Gatling Gun; there were electrically driven Gatlings converted from hand-crank drive 'way back when'. WaltBJ 02:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for these great insights! I will work on integrating them into this article and the F-4 Phantom II page. - Emt147 Burninate! 05:23, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Bombers?
I did not know the B-58 had a tail turret, and the M-60 (not M-61) is the only tail gun I know the B-52 had. The B-52 no longer flies with tail guns, they stopped using them around 1997. 65.80.178.227 17:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
- The original B-52A had 4 x Browning M3 0.50 caliber machine guns in a tail turret. On the B-52H these were replaced by a 20mm M61 cannon. All defensive guns have since been removed from operational B-52s as the threat of fighter interception is negligible.
[edit] Pop Culture
If anyone cares, in the game Metal Gear Solid, a villain named "Vulcan Raven" is personally armed with an M61 volcan. Colonel Marksman 00:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Also used in the films Terminator 2: Judgment Day and Superman Returns among others.
[edit] Why Have Them
I've always wondered why modern day fighters have guns especially when they only carry so few rounds its seems like a waste of space and weight. Milessp 00:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- The military thought the same thing with the introduction of the F-4 Phantom; however they discovered missiles were ineffective in close aerial combat during the Vietnam war. Dlodge 21:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
- The theory goes that you can never spoof a properly aimed cannon round.
[edit] Air Applications chart
I do not know enough wikicode to make a chart, but it might be useful (either in supplement to or replacement of much of the applications section) to include a chart of air installations, giving model (M61, A1, A2), power (hydraulic, electric, gas, ram air), feed (single or double ended), rounds carried and rate of fire. This is incomplete, but based upon what I could pull from vol. 5 of Chinn's 'Machine Guns' other wiki articles and other sources:
F104 M61 single ended 725rds, 4000spm F105B M61 single ended 1028rds, 6000spm (used an innovative feed, alternating each round between two seperate linked feed lines, allowing 4000spm to be surpassed) F105D M61A1, hydraulic, double ended, 1029rds 6000spm F4E M61A1, hydraulic, double ended 639rds, 6000spm A7D M61A1, hydraulic, double ended 1030rds, 6000spm/4000 optional F111 M61A1, electric, single ended, 2000 rds, 5000spm F106 M61A1, hydraulic, double ended, 650rds, 4500spm F14 M61A1, hydraulic, double ended, 676rds, 6000spm/4000 optional F15 M61A1, hydraulic, double ended, 940rds, 6000spm/4000 optional F16 M61A1, hydraulic, double ended, 512rds, 6000spm/4000 optional F18 M61A1, hydraulic, double ended, 570rds, 6000spm/4000 optional AMX M61A1, double ended, 403rds, 4000spm F18E M61A2, hydraulic 400rds, 6600spm, F22 M61A2, hydraulic 480rds 6600spm, Earthworm Makarov 19:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Photo on F-18 page
There is a very good photo on F-18 which shows the M61 with it's ? ammo drum. The photo is found at [[Image:100_0307.jpg]]. Dlodge 21:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] spool-up problem?
In the article, it says:
"Another criticism is that despite its high rate of fire, the Gatling-type weapon is hampered by the time it takes for the weapon to spin up to its maximum rotation speed (about 0.5 seconds). As a result, a one-second burst only fires about 70-75 rounds..."
If that is the case, why don't they have the gun spin up to speed as soon as the pilot arms it, and remain spinning until the pilot puts it back on safe, instead of waiting for him to press the trigger before the barrels begin to turn? I am not an engineer, so maybe I don't understand, but if that's a problem, this seems to be an obvious solution.
Because it would be ejecting unfired "live" rounds as it turned, leaving the weapon empty.
- To clarify, the ammunition feed system is directly linked to the cannon, in fact the same hydraulic or pneumatic source that powers the gun also powers the feed system. With a system that operates at that speed you cannot be engaging and disengaging the two systems on a whim, they need to stay perfectly indexed.
Additionally, the "argument" that spin-up time is a problem doesn't make sense. "Only 70-75 rounds"? A 20mm single barrel revolver-style cannon firing between 1,500 and 1,800 rounds per minute will fire only 25 to 30 rounds in one second. That's over double the rate of fire in a 1 second burst.
- The argument is somewhat valid, the thinking going that most air to air cannon engagements are "snap shots" with very high crossing aspect angles and a very short window when the gun is on target. The revolver-style single barrel cannons have an advantage in the first quarter to half second. The flip side is that the Vulcan cannon armed pilot can simply squeeze the trigger a half-second early and sweep across the target at a much higher rate of fire than the single barrel cannon armed pilot.
[edit] Tapping vs. Trapping
The correct usage is "tapping". A gas operated automatic cannon gets the gas used for its operation from a hole drilled into the barrel called a tap or gas port. The same usage as in "tapping a well". 69.92.250.98 18:53, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Numbers correct?
quote:
"The multiple barrels provide both a very high rate of fire--around 100 rounds per second--and contribute to long weapon life by minimizing barrel erosion and heat generation. Mean time between jams or failures is in excess of 10,000 rounds, making it an extremely reliable weapon."
100 rounds per second seems extremely fast, is this number correct?
MTBF of 10,000 rounds is ridiculously low, surely this must be wrong? Else there would be a jam or failure every 100 seconds of shooting on average. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.72.199.8 (talk) 23:01, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
- It definetely needs to be clarified. Perhaps the 10,000-round figure is per barrel, which would make the total 60,000 rounds, tho still not a lot. It might also be 100,000. - BillCJ 23:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
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- If you think about it, no M61 installation carries anywhere close to 10,000 rounds. It is a reasonable figure, particularly in contrast to the MTBS/MTBF for most small arms. And yes, a rate of 100 rps works out to 6,000 rpm, which is the commonly cited cyclic rate for this weapon. D.E. Watters 23:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
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- We don't usually talk in terms of MTBF, since time "T" doesn't really mean anything in this context (i.e. the gun system reliability is infinite in time if you never pull the trigger). Most of the M61-based aircraft gun systems using linkless ammunition handling systems have a reliability of about 30,000 mean rounds between failures (MRBF). The gun mechanism itself is good for about 5 times that, but the overall system reliability is lower because of the accumulated reliabilities of all the subassemblies that make up a system. And, yes, the firing rate of these systems is 100 rounds per second. VTFirefly911 04:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
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