Talk:M2 motorway

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WikiProject Kent tasks:

A229

Removed the description of the A299 as being a "motorway-standard" dual carriageway. It does not have hard shoulders and has several at-grade roundabouts, such as with the A28. However, it is still a good quality dual carriageway road.

A2

Changed description of the A2 to be "motorway-standard", as this has four lanes of traffic in each direction plus hard shoulders, of the same quality as the M2.

Medway Towns Bypass

The M2 in not merley a Medway Towns bypass, its more of a road to access North Kent. the M2 in conjunction with the motoway standard A2 (blackwall tunnell to m2 j1) and the thanet way (A299) Pickle 12:53, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Not going past primary destinations?

The M2 is also the longest motorway not to go past any primary destinations

How exactly are we defining "going past" a destination? Maidstone, a primary destination, is less than four miles from the M2 at one point. That's about the same distance away (or closer) as the centres of Cardiff from the M4, Sheffield and Nottingham from the M1, Bristol from both the M4 and M5, Stoke-on-Trent from the M6 etc. etc. - in all of these cases, you'd say that the particular motorway runs past it. What are the criteria for chosing which primary destinations are qualifying if were discussing which ones the motorway "goes past"? Richard B 23:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The M20 "goes past" Maidstone, and the town is signposted as a destination on the M20, not just as a local destination at a junction like it is from the M2. The M2's destinations are London, Canterbury, Channel Tunnel and Dover, and it does not go past any of them.
But those aren't "primary" destinations, they're the motorway's "control" destinations - i.e. those shown as the forward direction on the motorways. Maidstone is a primary destination (i.e. shown in green on most road maps) and as I said, is closer than several places from other motorways - it's just that the M20 is also between the M2 and Maidstone. Richard B 08:01, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
But the M2 goes nowhere near Maidstone. About 5 miles at the closest point. Ben W Bell talk 08:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
It's only about 3.8/3.9 miles at closest point - but as I pointed out above, that's similar distance or closer than Cardiff from the M4, Sheffield & Nottingham from the M1, Bristol from M4 & M5, Stoke from the M6 etc. ad nauseam - all are primary destinations - and all are mentioned in the infobox for the relevant motorway in the wikipedia article - the only difference for Maidstone & the M2 is that there is another motorway between them - so to say that the M2 doesn't go past Maidstone - is like saying that the M4 doesn't go past Bristol or Cardiff, that the M1 doesn't go past Sheffield or Nottingham, or that the M6 doesn't go past Stoke-on-Trent - and loads of other examples. It also needs to be looked at as to what is meant by "Primary destinations". The link on the infobox takes you to "Primary Status" which has a section on "Primary destinations" - by this measure, the M2 article lists only non-primary destinations in the "Primary destinations" box! Richard B 11:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
And then why are the medway towns listed there then FM [ talk to me | show contributions ]  18:31, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
The article currently talks about the coast ports and London as primary destinations, so thats OK in the context of claiming its a road that DOESN'T "go to / past" its primary destinations. However the primary destinations listed in the info box completely differs and would back up the opposite (ie that it does). IMHO this comes from people not considering the M2 as part of the bigger picture (ie the A2). I also believe that London and the Coast are the right "primary destinations" as all discussions referring to the road tend to use the phrases "coast bound" or "London bound". So what are you all arguing about ???
Pickle 15:00, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Whats a primary destination!?

The people of Medway wont be happy with that! lol--Screen42 23:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Only motorway with no connecting motorways?

"It is the only "M" motorway (as opposed to an "A-road(M)" motorway such as the A1(M)) that does not meet any other motorway at a junction" - The M27 does not meet any other motorways either, although it does meet/split off into the A27 and the A3(M) I always assumed that was an A road masquerading as a motorway... What does everyone think? (Pete) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.143.88.237 (talk) 19:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The M27 connects to the M3, M275 motorway and M271 motorway. FM [ talk to me | show contributions ]  17:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photographs

Anyone got some photographs of the M2 pre-widening?

[edit] Route of M2

Can someone expand the route of the M2? I know some of it but rivers, roads & valleys crossed is beyond me! Regan123 20:52, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry how do you want me to enlighten you? Pickle 07:58, 18 September 2006 (UTC) (a local)
I think what is meant is the names of the areas that the M2 passes through. The name of rivers, valleys etc that it goes through. Eg Over the river Medway, through the Nashenden Valley etc.--Screen42 16:01, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
J1, aka Three Crutches - this is at the end of the valley the A289 (Wainscott Northern bypass) is in (don't know the name).
In then goes downhill to the Medway (not Strood hill as thats the A2's decent into central Strood)
Crosses the Medway on the Medway Viaduct
Climbs the North Downs again, up Nashenden Valley to Blue Bell Hill / Bridgewood (they've actually named J3 the Taddington interchange after the wood it situated in). In then goes to J4 over the flat plateau at the top of the hill (Crossington fields, Westfield Sole, Lidsing, and Breadhurst)
Its still relatively level as its skirts Parkwood from J4 to farthing corner (sorry Medway Services).
Area beyond thats out of my patch really..... Pickle 06:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Has anyone else got any other info as I would like to write up a complete description? Regan123 22:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Route map

I have reduced the size back down again as it is covering up the picture on the right on my 12" iBook - quite a popular machine and articles should as useable on as many different machines as possible. If people want to see it in more detail they can also click on it - see East London Line#Northern extension for an example that works in both sizes. I have put a screen grab for the issue.

Also, there is a large amount of road shown that is not referred to in this article - removing the A2 would mean the M2 could be bigger and far more readable anyway. As has been mentioned before (Talk:M27_motorway) there is no such thing as Motorway X in the UK (see Great Britain road numbering scheme). The roads are known as MX, so the caption is incorrect. Finally the map ideally should carry a scale in miles as recommended Manual of Style. Miles are the UK standard measurement for roads.

Finally User:Richard B asked at User_talk:Captain_scarlet#M27_motorway if these maps are based on OS data. This really needs be ascertained because if they are then a licence is required (see OS Copyright IP).

Thanks, Regan123 00:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Overlapping of images and or boxes isn't an issue with image size, but issues with your browser. The size of the image was chosen to be large enough to be lisible but not too large as to be unreasonable. You are missing plug-ins and or use an unappropriate scrensize which means your browser is layering pages content when it doesn't need to, the issue comes form the wiki software that your browser cannot interpret properly. Your comments makes it hard to anyone not working with you to contribute and makes your behaviour acountable to the referal board. The data from these maps was not copied from any OS product as it would be a violation of their copyright. Properties of roads are available from shared sources outside of the Os, such as section lengths and exit numbers. Also data yourself broadcast from edition of the article, therefore under the GFDL, is relevant documentation to accomplish these maps. The maps in return also bare the GFDL-like tags in respect of license rules imposed by Wikimedia. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 11:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Finally the choise of adding road #2 on motorway #2's map was chosen, as it was for motorway #180, due to the fact that the motorway is assimilated to the entire routes, but due to highway code legislation the choice was made to authorise non-motorway traffic onto these sections. It is therefore important to include these non-motorway sections as they are part of the traffic trunk #2 as is the roads #180. The choice not to include the A or M in the motorway names was made due to the repetition of the meaning motorway such as it exists when one says PIN number, that is called a pleonasm. Calling the files MX or AX was thought to be inapropriate as many other objects have these names other than British roads, Motorway x was the logical course of action. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 11:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The screen size on the iBook 12" is 1024 x 768 and I checked the page in Safari, Firefox & Camino. The overlay problem was the same. I also checked on a PC with IE and found the same issue. If there is a problem with the Wiki software on certain browsers is it such a problem to make it as compatible with as many viewers as possible? As for removing the A2 I made those comments as a suggestion of a way forward to get a bigger map - it was not a major issue and at no time did I demand it.
I am disappointed that you have suggested I would be accountable to the referal board (I can't find a specific reference to this in the [{WP:HELP]] or elsewehre so I assume you mean the administrators). I fail to see how my comments have breached [{WP:CIVIL}} and I have never assumed bad faith. Frankly I have had my stuff edited "mercilessly" as it says at the bottom. That is part of Wikipedia. And with the greatest respect you did state here that you would not discuss the matter any further on the M27. How are other editors to react to that?
As to the Mx issue. The naming of the file when it is uploaded is not an issue. The captioning was the problem for me (and for another contributor). The road is named in legislation and on the ground as the M2. Where does that leave other motorways (lets say the M54) which goes nowhere near another A road. Shoudl these become . That is the issue for myself and another editor on Wikipedia. If you don't want to change it, that's up to you. I would still apprecaite your thoughts regarding the miles scale on the map though (see above).
Thanks also for answering the point on the copyright issue.
Finally I would point out that I have previously stated that I thought the maps added something to articles. I think there are issues with them as have other editors - my position hasn't changed on that for the reasons I have given here and elsewhereRegan123 13:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC).
Looking at this, the size of the map as it currently is is just right for the resizing issue. At no point in resizing does the map block the photograph, just a slight overlay of the caption. Anyway a simple solution to the issue would be to simply have the map before the text rather than afterwards, that way there is nothing for it to overlay. As for the units, the map should really show the scale in miles as that is the unit of measurement on a UK road. By all means have kilometres as an alternative, but miles should definitely be there. Ben W Bell talk 14:19, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
As far as i know the UK is now metricised thanks to the EU. Only road signs, beer measurements and milk measurements are legally allowed to be measured imperialy but in no way obligatory. Even if we disagree with the kilometre (not kilometer as the US uses it) it is there only to stay, and will only gain in presence. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 14:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
With the Road x, Motorway x. These never appear anywhere as far as I can see. Whilst there are many other things that have, say the name A10. If they appear on an article about the English road running from London to King's Lynn - the A10, there is no confusion. The A or M (or B) is an integral part of the route designation in the UK. I.e. it isn't Motorway number 180, but a motorway with the route named the M180. In official legislation it'll be the "M180 motorway". Ax roads aren't road number x, but the route called the Ax. Finally, if a road is classified as Ax(M), e.g. the A1(M), then these usually appear in official legislation as the "A1 motorway", where it clearly means that the road still forms part of the A1 route, but has motorway status. Finally, the point about metrication. The UK is not completely metricised. The UK has agreed to go completely metric, but the EU has imposed no deadline for the transition. British roads are completely signed in miles and yards. Indeed, metric signs are not allowed to be used on British roads without express permission of the Secretary of State for Transport. He hasn't given permission for any metric signs to be used on public roads yet. Richard B 14:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
No, i don't want to talk about the issue, though if one is talking about my uploaded work I must (relunctantly) participate. Each and every contribution I make is tested, I use Konqueror, Firefox and IE on 1280*1024 and 1024*768, i also regularly contribute from 3PCs and two laptops at home as well from work on similar systems. since I usually work on an article, i go back to previously edited articles and I can see changes and if they show alright.
I am adament that i continue to receives comments such as yours i will have to request for comment, thus showing that fair play isn't respected; see blanking and non-acceptance of other contirbutors edits, reverts.
I am aware you did ask for more maps, which is exactly why I've done more, where possible (length of road). The maps wil neverplease everyone and at some point have to adhere to an editors wishes. I'm not asking you to accomodate me, but to work by the rules. you didn't in the case of the M27 motorway. You and maybe RichardB owuld like to get rid of pedantism, you can't just say the official legislation it'll be the "M180 motorway" as it means you won't accept anything else than what you've yourself contributed to, see my above point. This is why i won't join your project and will ocntinue to work as I do now as I see you group as being air-tightly sealed.
Metric signs are regularly used on British roads: [1]. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 15:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah, but that's not a road distance sign. And some metric signs are used, the M25 has the side distance markers marked out in kilometres from the Dartford Crossing rather than miles, but you need to look carefully to see them. However all distances on UK route signs are in miles and yards, not metric. The UK officially uses miles for all distances. Those height signs on bridges are solely for the usage of foreign truck drivers, and are quite sensibly there. Oh and the M is a vital part of the road designation, just like A and B and is used officially, the roads are never refered to as the Motorway 25, or Motorway 2, but M25 Motorway and M2 Motorway or simply M25 and M2. Ben W Bell talk 16:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah, this is not an Os map nor a map to use for travelling, it is a geographical representation of the course of motorway. Plus British language uses use rather than the American usage, I pointed out that metric signs are used all over the British highway network. The example given above is a height distance sign. If strict rules are going to be highlighted they need to be correct, especially when serenading me. The maps didn't used to bare scales, these were added to get an idea of their size. The distance measurement on British highway being in imperial has no relevance on the measurement on the illustrative maps in question. Sufficely to say, I won't change the map as I've said before, the reasons for creating them that way was chosen after considering such as yours, your questioning getting extremely tiresome and lack of potent argument not strong enough to change my intentions. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 16:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Apologies if my making two comments is "extremely tiresome", I've only made two comments. Miles should be added to the map scale as this is a UK based article and in the UK miles are the primary and official unit of distance for road travel. I may see about adding them to the map later (if I do so I'll also edit the title to use the correct usage of M2 motorway. Ben W Bell talk 18:43, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Your menaces have made me understand the map needed to be redone:

Image:MI2.png

Wikimedia rules make it impossible for you to modify the files or duplicate them, having been a member for two years you should know that. You should also know that ultimatums are not well seen. On the other hand you can ask me politely for reasonable changes which is what I've asked from the beginning in a politely structured British English sentence, Wikilove has taken a hit in a day for sure. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 19:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

It happens quite often with self-produced maps that several members have collaborated on making the maps suitable for general Wiki use. What ultimatums? All people have asked for is the maps to have the correct name references and the units of measurement in the units of the country of the article, which is common practice on Wikipedia. People have asked politely for reasonable changes, your comments have been the aggressive comebacks. If I have overstepped some bounds of wikipropriety then please point them out so I can correct myself or apologise, but I made a couple of comments and received some very aggressive replies correcting my English usage and calling my comments "extremely tiresome", despite the fact I'd only just made a couple of comments some even providing supporting evidence on some matters. For my opinion on this the map if it has a scale should have one in miles, in addition to the kilometres scale, as this is pertaining to a UK article and that is the standard and official distance measurement unit for roads. I believe it should also say M2 motorway as this is how it is referred to in almost all publications and is the official name for the roads. Just as a road called A28 isn't road 28, but the A28 road, it is their actual name. Ben W Bell talk 19:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Ultimatum: I may see about adding them to the map later (if I do so I'll also edit the title to use the correct usage of M2 motorway. Once again I'd like to point that you are not the onjly contributor and my comments were not solely directed at you. Replies received were rather rivet counting-like and tenuous would be fitting for the repetitive and air tight behaviour in this talk page. Also to be reminded these are not maps, but unaccredited and approximative plans, therefore not to be used as a like-for-like likeness (can't find a better description you'll forgive me). It is why the measurement system used is of no relevance to what should be used on the plans, and it is a bonus to even have scales for such things, most were added post production to give an idea of. The plans also have symbolic placing of exits as the nature of the plans to not permit them to be precise, they aren't government funded and made OS maps but an accurate and approximate representation of the real Mc Coy. There is no standard for plans, but there are for maps. If I'd begun a creation of redistribuabble maps, the file and image sizes would be much bigger and details in greater number (bridges, tunnels, type of junctions, grades even?), but they aren't.
Road name, open to debate, their number isn't their name. The letter part of the numbering isn't part of the route's name but a classification and a remark on their grade, the road/motorway still being the Nth road of that classification; the M50 would be a road of motorway standard with the number 50: motorway 50. Once again PIN number? A pleonasm, no need for repeatitions, you can cite an entire books content that wouldn't make it right. I'm not comfortable in putting both motorway and M, same for roads. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 20:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, It's not motorway 50, as I and others have pointed out. It's also not the 50th motorway (there's no M7, M12-M17, M19, M21,M22 etc.) The M is not "motorway" shortened. It is part of the offical route designation. It is therefore not a pleonasm. I would appreciate a citation that the M is not part of the route number. I refer you to the official documentation in the national archives for the deveopment of the motorway numbering system for my citation.
I'm also confused as to why you say the maps may not be modified. You released this map under with permission to "copy, distribute and/or modify" the document, provided that any derivative work is also released under the same license. Richard B 00:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
M is not part of a motorway's number, it's a letter, it is part of the motorway's designation. Don't preach if you don't cite accurately, as you haven't done in this discussion thanks to contrary quotes. If M is not the acronym of motorway it sure is a fluke to have a road designation for a motorway bare the letter M. The rules I quote are on wikimedia's website where i refer you to the same way you're referring me to the national archives. If you are so adament my plans are inaccurate, false, i suggest you delink each and everyone of them from the article you and your gorup maintain the solve your problem. I consider the case closed and will if neede ddelete the plans to avoid any pure rudeness on your parts and your lack of Wikietiquette. May I fin this behaviour agian you will be immediately referred for a request for comment, this is a warning and an advice to change your behaviour. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 00:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move proposal

Is there any particular reason why this page sits where it does? Other countries have enormously larger and more important M2 motorways, e.g., M2 motorway (Russia). I believe M2 motorway should be reserved for a disambiguation page. --Ghirla-трёп- 17:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Well run a proper WP:move suggestion / poll thingy... It sounds eminently sensible Pickle 01:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)