Talk:M-84

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Previously, under "place of origin" in the table it wrote Yugoslavia/Serbia... M-84 was made primarily in Đuro Đaković factory in Slavonski Brod, Croatia. (April 20 2007)

It was assembled in DD, but the parts for it were made by factories from all over former Yugoslavia, so it is most accurate to say it was made in Yugoslavia without mentioning a republic. Edrigu 17:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

...with the gunner having a DNNS-2 day and night sight with independent stabilisation in 2 planes with integral LRF.

Is that stabilization for the sight, or for the gun? (I thought the T-72 already had 2-plane stabilization) What is LRF?

M-84A4 is called Snajper, not Snapjer, right?

Which of the variant models represent newly-built tanks, and which are refurbishment or upgrades of the existing arsenal?

If the M-84AB is only used by Kuwait, does that also apply to the M-84ABX submodels? Which models are employed by which countries? —Michael Z. 2006-07-28 02:07 Z


True, M84 was a product of whole Yugoslavia, main assembly was in Croatia, also Croatia had about 30% of share in production and in the event of a war entire production can be established at Djuro Dakovic.


New M84D is totally different machine, new turret, new optics, only lower part resembles M84, rest of the tank is all new, btw even tracks on tank are being replaced. Mic of orion

DD is just where the final assembly took place. The VW Golf is assembled in Mexico, does that make it a Mexican car instead of a German one? No because it was designed in Germany. The parts for the M-84 were produced by companies thoughout all over the former Yugoslavia, and the (non-Russian) parts were designed by companies throughout all over SFRJ. I believe the design was led and coordinated by the national military technical institute, in Belgrade, which also did most of the work. The project name was Kapela. Croatia is putting together Degmans or M-84D or whatever they call it now by using parts produced back in those days, not by building all-new parts. Croatia does not have the capability to build all parts today. For example they do not have the capability to cast turrets. But many of them were left over from unfinished M-84s so they can continue production until they run out of those parts, but then... If you speak Serbocroatian, see here: [1] Edrigu 21:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


Nope that is not correct, new M84D or better said M95 Degaman is entirely made in Croatia true, old M84's were made throughout ex YU, no republic had majority share, but tanks were put together at DD, also main body (hull) for the tank was made @ DD. One thing you perhaps failed to recognize Djuro Djakovic is a major engineering firm with 12000 strong workforce, they make whole range of products, some under license some of its own.

Croatian manufacturing is well recognized and high tech. True in 1991-1995 Croatia had little if no ability to manufacture new tank, but this is not the case now. DD has completed 2 samples of M95/M84D and are now being tested, new tanks are totally different from M84, new armour, new turret even new tracks.

Turret on M84D is totally new turret, has appearance of western built tank, and once public pictures are available I'll try to get them on to Wiki. Of all ex Yugo states only Croatia can build tanks from scratch, as there is a knowhow and expertise for such product, so no wonder Croatia started manufacture of 84 M84D/M95 Degman tanks. Currently country has 75 M84A1 tanks, 1M95 Degman, and 1 M84D. Last 2 samples are completely new products, share very little with the old M84, (hull, tracks and cannon), new turret, new power pack, new optrionics. I agree, power pack are imported from Germany I guess there is little point in manufacturing them in Croatia.

Image of M95 degman tank, plz note tracks, turret and optics. only cannon is same old 125mmm, this is a basic version of the tank, the base.

You fail to forget, Croatia builds much more complex stuff than some tanks, it is a 5th largest shipbuilder in the world. Mic of orion

Ok then give me the name of the Croatian facility that has the capability to cast turrets? Anyways I fail to see how any of your points relate to this wikipedia article. Are there some specific changes you are proposing to be made to the M-84 article, or what? Edrigu 19:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


http://www.ddsv.hr/kapaciteti_montaza.html --- here - you can even see the cutting and welding machines and tank assembly, They'll also manufacture new Patria's for Croatian Army. Mic of orion


Can someone give me the link to information where Croatia purchased 20 M84A4 Sniper tanks? I simply do not believe that is the case, but I hope you can prove me wrong.

Also since when Macedonia has 40 M84 tanks? I know they got some Ukrainian T72's not sure how many, but never heard of M84's.

Contents

[edit] origin - simple question/suggestion

i just have one small suggestion, since Yugoslavia is no more, and both serbia and croatia have continued with their own manufacture of these tanks, perhaps it would be ok for Country of Origin to write "Yugoslavia, Serbia and Croatia present-day" or something along those lines. i only suggest this because if we leave it just as Yugoslavia, it implies the tank is out of production, which is 100% false.

thank you!--OettingerCroat 00:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it's pretty clear that "Place of origin" isn't the same as "Manufactured in", and the documentation for Template:Infobox Weapon indicates that this is the way it should be used. The tank's origin is simply not in present-day Serbia or Croatia. —Michael Z. 2007-07-09 05:35 Z


[edit] Merge from M-84AB1

I don't see the justification for a separate, 1-paragraph article for this variant. It appears to add some significant technology, but even the people who built it didn't think it warranted more than a figure "1" to distinguish it from a previous model. Most of the information and all of the pictures about the M-84AB1 are already here anyway. —Michael Z. 2007-07-23 16:28 Z

Agree. Bukvoed 11:55, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I've completed the merge. There was no original material, apart from a few figures in the infobox. —Michael Z. 2007-07-30 18:59 Z

--- The issue can be left for now, but I feel I should point out that the Serbian M-84AB1 was a early initial variant upgrade for the M-84 much like the Croatian M-84D therefore not a completely new tank. Croatia redeveloped the M-84D into the M-95 Degman which can be considered a new tank. Serbia has in the mean time had the same effect in regards to the M-84AB1, in which a newer version and licensed designation M-2001 came about.

The M-2001 a more advanced version of the M-84AB1 is far more different than its counter part and in realty a great gap is left between the M-2001 and M-84 in comparison, justifying a article not of the M-84Ab1 but rather M-2001.

In conclusion a article based on the M-2001 is justifiable as it contains a fair amount of differences in both M-84 and M-84AB1. Regards Bluewings 2:35, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Terrible Article

Is it just the translation or is this article as badly written as i think? The facts and figures aside, this article could really use some tidying up, unfortunately i am unable to verify any of these facts and figures so i wouldn't like to try and sort it out.

Just for the record, i was taken here by the Random Article function.


Entire Article is a total nonsense and full of grammar mistakes, totally inaccurate as well. I'll be cleaning the article because it is pure nonsense what some ppl put in.Mic of orion


PPS, this will take time, it needs total rewrite, I am trying to be as nice as I can, article is a total mess, I'll be using Jane's AFV recognition guide as honestly I do not understand any of the gibberish written there, no offense but this article is a real mess I've done first 2 paragraphs, I'll try to finish whole thing if my work permits, btw if you feel Jane's AFV is totally inaccurate plz post here more accurate data, do not change it before you research the article totally, thanxMic of orion--Mic of orion 00:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


Ok I spruced up the article, now it resembles something of the article, I hope no one messes it up again, in case it does, we should lock the article to prevent further nonsense, after all there is not much to be added. I am correcting some links btw, and giving more input to the article. OK, job done. Mic of orion --Mic of orion 00:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

i helped mic of Orion, we refined the grammar which has horrible prior to this. cheers. --OettingerCroat 00:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, your grammar is not a big improvement over the previous version. In particular, the frequent missing of articles (the, a) makes it read like it was written by an eastern European. Secondly, there are still inaccuracies; it was not heavily used by all sides in the war. Only the Serbs used it heavily, the other sides had either no M-84s or very few. Edrigu 01:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, someone reedited the article again, M84 is not 3rd generation tank it is 2nd at best. Also I agree it was not heavily used by all parties, mainly Serbs. Changes where made where I felt it was unreadable and needed major work, first 5 paragraphs. but overall article is ok, ppl can read and it is top notch, edrigu you don't like it change it.Mic of orion 4:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar perfected

the article's grammar issues have now been wholly dealt with. cheers. --OettingerCroat 06:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Huh? I just looked at it and saw loads more grammar, punctuation and other problems. So I've fixed all that I can find, it should be ok now. --Hibernian 16:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


lets see how long stays this way, lool, already someone changed weight of the tank to 48 tons, from 41 for M84 and 50 tons for M84Ab1.

M84 A1 weighs only 41 tons, and Latest Serb version only 44.5 tons. How they got 50 is beyond me. --Mic of orion 22:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unlicensed images

This article appears to be mostly full of unlicensed photos. If there's someone looking after this article, they should really clean it up before the photos are all purged from Wikipedia. —Michael Z. 2007-10-03 16:57 Z

[edit] M-84 in Croatia

Does anyone know which units of Croatian Army are operateing M-84 MBTs? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.101.241.129 (talk) 17:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possible inaccurate statement in the "Armor" section of the "Infobox"?

Hi All, The article looks quite good, I've just noticed the following sentence that seems to be out of place in the "Armor" section of the "Infobox":

5 lance grenades fumigating

Maybe this would be part of a "defensive systems" section? Need to give a better look at the "Infobox" template myself.
Regards, DPdH (talk) 23:56, 12 June 2008 (UTC)