Talk:M-185 (Michigan highway)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Good article M-185 (Michigan highway) has been listed as one of the Engineering and technology good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
May 8, 2008 Good article nominee Listed
This article is within the scope of the U.S. Roads WikiProject, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to roads in the United States. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Topics Michigan State Highways
Good article GA This article has been rated as GA-Class on the quality scale. (add assessment comments)
Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.
The map in this article is maintained by the Maps task force.

If motor vehicles are restricted from this highway, how do they lay asphalt on it? by heavy construction equipment? --SuperDude 03:04, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

The City of Mackinac Island has the right to grant temporary motor vehicle permits for construction projects on Mackinac Island, including road repair. The permits must state the purpose for which the vehicle will be used and the dates the vehicle will be in use. The city strongly discourages applications for motor vehicle permits during the summer tourist season. Bigturtle 20:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] City of Mackinac Island, Not Village

Here's an excerpt of some text I wrote last year for the discussion in the "Mackinac Island" article:

While the downtown core may seem like a "village" (e.g. quaintness, size, etc.), the Village of Mackinac Island was incorporated as a city in 1900, "under a charter that incorporated an area extending a mile offshore and including nearby Round Island." - "100 Years at Mackinac" by David A. Armour, Mackinac Island State Park Commission, 1995, p.10. Thus, the City of Mackinac Island has been an incorporated city for 106 years. CBessert 01:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This is not the only state highway that the public is not allowed to drive on

[1][2] --NE2 22:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Driving on that highway is allowed with the proper pass... it's guardshack controlled. VA SR 318 does allow vehicles past the security checkpoint with an appropriate pass. It would be similar to the roads on a military base. M-185 is on an island with NO way to get a car there, where driving a car has been illegal for 112 years now. It is unique in the US. I'll try to find for you at some point, but Rep Bart Stupak (D-MI First District) was questioned on the floor of the House for a funding request to help pay for repairs on a state highway where no one can drive. --Imzadi1979 (talk) 01:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
M-185 allows emergency and utility vehicles by permit; SR 318 allows vehicles with a pass. --NE2 00:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, the second link you provided pretty clearly shows vehicles on the road. older ≠ wiser 14:00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

In addition, Tangier Island in Virginia apparently has a similar restriction on cars but has state highways: [3] Note that these are secondary state highways; we may be able to say something to the effect of "M-185 is the only primary state highway serving a car-free place." --NE2 00:43, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't find in either link you give, nor anything linked from them that there is a restriction on cars. Also, every road in Virginia is state maintained, unlike in Michigan where unless it is a city street or state trunkline, it is a county road. --Imzadi1979 (talk) 02:08, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Tangier Island is listed on List of car-free places, and that does appear to be true, de facto if not de jure. And I know that every (rural) road in Virginia is state maintained; that's why I proposed limiting it to primary. --NE2 02:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes but on Tangier Island they get around with golf carts, which are cars in my book. The only golf carts on Mackinac Island are on golf courses and are not allowed to leave the golf course, if you do leave the golf course with it, you can expect an few hundred dollar ticket.BeckyAnne(talk) 14:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I just found one: Washington State Route 339 is the passenger-only Seattle-Vashon Heights ferry: [4] --NE2 01:39, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Where's the asphalt? Imzadi1979 (talk) 01:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Seriously, is this a crusade against M-185? M-185 is known as the only "motor-less highway". Ferries have "motors". Try again. Imzadi1979 (talk) 02:03, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
What? SR 339 is a state highway defined by Washington state law that motor vehicles are not allowed on. What's so hard to understand about that? --NE2 02:19, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Agree with Imzadi1979 -- comparing an actual road with a ferry route is beyond ridiculous. older ≠ wiser 02:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Not when the state has designated the ferry route as a state highway. --NE2 02:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Under your logic then, ALL ferry routes connecting highways on land are motor-less. You can't very well drive on the ship itself. M-185 is unique. It's a land highway where the only access to the pavement is by foot, bicycle or horse/horse-drawn carriage. Yes, it's essentially an over-grown bike path. Ferries aren't highways, they're boats. Boats have engines. Now find me a land highway that's the same, and we'll remove the claim. Until then, it's the ONLY one of its kind. Imzadi1979 (talk) 02:32, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
You're the one introducing the ill-defined term "motor-less". The claim is about taking motor vehicles on the road. A ferry is simply a short road that moves, like a transporter bridge. --NE2 02:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
No, it's not a road. It's a ship. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 02:41, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
It's a ship that carries a road. --NE2 02:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't make it any less of a ship or any more of a road. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 02:43, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

(ins rs) I didn't coin the phrase, but it is used in the sources cited. It still qualifies as the only land highway in the US prohibiting motor-vehicles. A ferry is not a land highway. Can I make that clearer? I respect your tenacity, but you haven't convince the Michigan-resident editors that what we know and have cited isn't true. Imzadi1979 (talk) 02:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

The statement was placed there from fact, where's your source, NE2, that proves otherwise?  — master sonT - C 02:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Citing MDOT was a good idea. Now about "motorless highway" - does that phrase appear in "Michigan's West Coast: Explore the Shore Guide", or is in only in the two websites (which are not reliable sources)? --NE2 03:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I submit the following:
  1. Mackinac Island is "motorless" [5] [6]
  2. M-185 is on Mackinac Island (see any map or atlas of your choice)
  3. Ergo, M-185 is "motorless" [7]
Now then, is that good enough? Imzadi1979 (talk) 03:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
No; that doesn't show it's called a "motorless highway" except by one website. --NE2 04:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The logic above does though. A is a B, B is C, thus A is C. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 05:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The article says "it is called a "motorless highway" as well". If we can't reference that significant sources call it such, that sentence shouldn't be there. --NE2 05:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
That is actually a clear case of WP:SYNTHESIS and against Wikipedia policy. --Holderca1 talk 13:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I bring forth this Webpage[8] from MDOT that number 8 says:
M 185 (on Mackinac Island) is the only state highway in the nation where motor vehicles are banned.
BeckyAnne(talk) 15:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I think we have already demonstrated that is not the case as the Washington route is a state highway and motor vehicles are also banned from it. --Holderca1 talk 15:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I think we have already demonstrated that it is the only state highway on land where motor vehicles are banned. Even if we accept the direct comparison of a boat and a piece of asphalt, which some of us contest as an invalid comparison akin to apples and oranges, M-185 is on land and this Washington highway is not. We can debate further dictionary definitions as we want, but the fact remains, even accepting a ferry boat as a highway
The next issue is "motorless". We can remove that if we must, but it is cited from a source calling it so. The whole island is called "motorless" in other sources used above. Let's separate the issues and deal with it one sentence at a time until both sides in this dispute hammer out a mutually-acceptible compromise. Sound like a plan? Imzadi1979 (talk) 20:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Well it can be argued that M-185 isn't a highway either in the true since of the word, so we are also accepting a paved bike path as a highway. That sentence isn't claiming it to be the only "motorless highway" so I don't see the issue with it. --Holderca1 talk 20:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Calling it a "paved bike path" is really not accurate either. It looks exactly like most any other small road, with the exception of not having any regular motor vehicle traffic on it. The road is constructed to accommodate emergency vehicles (and perhaps some maintenance vehicles as well). older ≠ wiser 20:51, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there clear evidence that the Washington Route is in fact a passenger-only ferry? I wasn't able to see that from the links provided in the relevant articles. Although I still think comparing a ferry route with an actual road is silly -- if the vessel is transporting vehicles, it makes calling it a "motor-less" route or one in which motor vehicles are banned less credible. older ≠ wiser 18:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

We are comparing a state highway to a state highway. I really wouldn't consider this route a road either, more of a large paved bike/hiking path, but that doesn't matter, the article is claiming on the basis of being a state highway. If you look at the link to the Washington state legislature, it says it is the ferry route between Seattle and Vashon, on the map, this ferry route is noted as a passenger only ferry(gray dashed line). --Holderca1 talk 19:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, so that doesn't indicate that it is a passenger-only ferry. If the ferry is transporting motor vehicles, it substantially diminishes any claim that it does not allow cars. older ≠ wiser 20:01, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Huh? It specifically says it is a passenger-only ferry, it is the only passenger-only ferry on the map. --Holderca1 talk 20:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I misread that. I was about to correct my reply and got called away. older ≠ wiser 20:23, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Junction list

I think this is a clear case of a highway article that doesn't need a junction list/major intersections section. --Holderca1 talk 13:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

How about a Landmark list? M-185 is milemarkered, something rare in MI outside of the freeways, and those markers are commonly used to guide roadway users to attractions around the island, one of which is British Landing Road. Imzadi1979 (talk) 20:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, the statement "Since M-185 is located on an island, no other state highways intersect with it" makes no sense. There are state highways in Hawaii that intersect each other. Perhaps if it said, "Since M-185 is the only state highway located on the island, no other state highways intersect with it" --Holderca1 talk 20:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good article review

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:
    B. MoS compliance:
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    C. No original research:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    B. Focused:
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

I've watched this article grow, and being its one of a few of its kind, I do believe that it passes the GA criteria, because it is comprehensive (Despite its length). It also meets the rest of the criteria. Congrats.Mitch32contribs 21:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)