Talk:Móric Beňovský

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Tankred, Slovakia is only 14 years old. How do you dare to create 'heroes' of a non-existing country that time? This article is clearly only your natinalism-vandalism, not a Wikipedia article. Regards.

Definitelly it is not a Slovak version of Wikipedia. Bear it in mind when you create this article. Benowski was born in Hungary so, altough of Slovak origins, technically he was a Hungarian. Many Poles regard him as a Pole as well. In fact he was a citizen of the world. In such circumstancies it would be kind to limit nationalistic sentiments. I think that the article should be carefully re-edited. According accepted rules of Wikipedia articles should be written from a neutral point of view, which means that articles should represent differing views on a subject fairly and sympathetically. I decided to change parts of your contribution, which is unacceptably "slovakocentric". I removed the parts which does not introduce any important information but make artificial mess. Regards Von Fiszman

The changes you made are excellent, but one point is simply not through - technically he was not a Hungarian, he was a Hungarian only formally (if at all), because if he was a Hungarian, then this would imply that any Slovak,Croat,Romanian etc.(and especially any noble) was a Hungarian before 1918 only because he spoke Hungarian and did not "attack Budapest" all the time. He also had nothing to do with present-day Hungary - but he had a lot to do with present-day Austria (Maria Theresa etc). So if we use your logic, he was actually an Austrian and was born in Austria. Also,the original text explicitely says that he is considered a hero by the Madagscarians and the Poles, and it contains a lot of reference to his activities in the USA, although I could have written a lot more about Slovakia and leave e.g. the USA out, but I thought that this was important for an English Wikipedia. It also said that he was the first European etc. who explored ...and not the first Slovak or so. So -as I see it - your real problem is that the article does not claim that he is an important Hungarian or something like that. And ... if nationality is not 100% defined by the country where a person and his family was born, where he spent at least the first 18 years of his life, whose language was his mother language,where he was educated, where his home house - to which he came back whenever it was possible - was situated, and where his wife came with his daughters after his death and died, then I really do not know how else nationality can be defined. If you do not like this definition, then you do not like the term nationality. However, the above is how nationality is usually defined and used in encyclopedias to describe a person for the reader. And, of course, even if one says that someone has a nationality X, that does not mean that he cannot be a "citizen of the world", which Benovsky surely is. But, if you personally are a Hungarian or something like that, then of course you cannot be convinced and always keep in mind that I in turn think that you are unacceptably "hungarocenthric". And if I would have tried to really make a nationalistic article than it would surely have looked differently. Juro

1. I am not Hungarian, so I can not be "hungarocentric". 2. I never written that he was not Slovak. 3. As you know there was no political entity called Slovakia. Hungary was! Please, do not play the fool. Hungary (at least in theory) was a separate state. It was not a part of Holy Roman Empire (as Austria was). It is why I call him Hungarian. Formally, he was a Hungarian. 4. Read your previous version one time more. What can a Hungarian think about that? Try to imagine that someone could replace all mentions about his Slovak origins with mentions of his "Hungarian roots". I think that you should appreciate feelings of other readers and contributors. I hope it is not a battlefield. Regards, von Fiszman

1.O.K. maybe you get the problem if I say you this: Poland stopped to exist between 1795 and 1918 or so (the years do not matter here). Or take WWII in respect to Poland or France. How would you like it, if I would change all references to Poles from this time and say that they are Russians, Austrians or Germans depending on the official state where they were living at that time. Because that is exactly the same thing you have done in this article (although I kept your modification). And I could name you thousands of examples like this. In Europe's history, if someone is an inhabitant of a territory that is conquered by another then of course you usually cannot find its name on a map. Nevertheless, e.g. the term Poland is used in all contexts for present-day Poland in history, because Poland does not only mean the Republic/ Kinddom or so but also simply approximately the territory of present-day Poland inhabited by Poles. 2. I can only repeat the above argument. What you are saying is that all Slovaks, Ruthens, Austrians, Croats, Romanians in Hungary... are Hungarians before 1918. All of them will thank you and this is a dangerous precedent for an encyclopedia. Benovsky had no Hungarian roots (not at all, if then rathe Polish ones), the only thing that was Hungarian about him was that he was living on a territory annexed by Hungary. 3. The problem here is that in English it is not possible to distinguish between an adjective denominating the state and the ethnic group in the case of Hungary (as opposed to e.g. Slovene = usu. ethnic Slovene and Slovenian = usu.referring to the Slovenian state) and that if an English reads that Benovsky was a Slovak/Hungarian nobel he will think that he was an ethnic Hungarian (e.g. mother Slovak, father Hungarian or so), which is totally misleading. I mean you admit that he was a Hungarian formally, but the text of the article absolutely does/did not indicate this for a reader not knowing history. I have no reason to be against the Hungarians (in the contrary, I am even learning Hungarian at present).What I am trying to do is to be precise. 4. Have a look at most original historic maps between 1540 - 1867 and try to find out whether you see Austrian Monarchy or Hungary there. Also you would not find e.g. a Hungarian army during this time - that's why Benovsky entered the Austrian army. Also the "Hungarian" king was always sitting in Vienna and so on. And as to the Holy Roman empire - that is a completely different and purely formal problem.

In my humble opinion, references to ethnic origin should be taken with a grain of salt, especially in the case of persons who lived before the 19. century. As for Benyovszky (as it is known in my country), his mother was of Hungarian origin (from the noble family Révay), therefore, his Hungarian ancestry can be well established (besides his Polish or possible, Slovak one). The problem whether it is legitimate to refer to a Slovak nation for a historical period preceding the formation of the Slovak national consciousness or language would go beyond the scope of this article. Nevertheless, I think that the Slovakization of historical names (like Révay into Révaiová or Hönsch into Hönschová) should be corrected in an encyclopedia that values objectivity.

Contents

[edit] Some thoughts

I appreciate the effort that went into writing this article; however, I wept as I read it. Could you please run the article through a spell checker and put a little more work into the grammar?

This article should be clearly de-slovakized. Benyovszky was a Hungarian noble who never thought that his ancestral land would be called Slovakia later in history. I am holding in my hand a letter he wrote to his father in perfect Hungarian. So it is highly doubtful that his first language was Slovak. [removed repeated vandalism, chauvinism and primitivism by Enigma] Enigma1 01:35, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

No, the aricle should be "slovakized". Every noble spoke also Hungarian at that particular time. He was only Hungarian in the sense that he was from Hungary. And I am not interested in what you hold in your hands, because until now you have presented nothing but lies, fascist and highly primitive comments and permanent lies. You have been explained this 100 times already. And I wil continue to delete you, since this is no fascism forum. Juro 21:59, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

So you are not interested in exact proofs just in your extremist Slovak nationalist propaganda, as I can see. So far you have not provided a shred of evidence that he was Slovak or that he even spoke the language (his Slavic ancestry was most likely Polish) 81.183.183.239 21:24, 22 March 2006 (UTC).

Remember when India was British (and not independent)? Those people were not Indian citizens, because India did not exist, but would you call them British? Not really, as well as you cannot call Benovsky Hungarian. Of course, he could speak Hungarian, it was a must for any Slovak in a higher position to speak Hungarian. But could perfectly speak Polish and Russian, what is quite easy to learn for a Slovak, but very difficult (and pretty unusual) for a Hungarian.

[edit] grammar

Grammar and style of this article really need attention. The problem is that here and there it's written so badly that discerning what the writer meant appears to be beyond my imagination. Mostly though, it's not that bad. And one more thing: at least once the author made a mistake which exactly inverted the meaning - "fighting the French" and "fighting with the French" differ considerably. Zbihniew 13:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slovak? Hungarian? Polish?

He is claimed by all three people as a national hero. He had a Polish name, was born in what is now Slovakia, and had a Hungarian mother, Róza Révay. Credit should always be given to where credit is due. So he was half Slav, and half Magyar. This should be enough to promote friendship and mutual pride and cooperation between these two peoples who have been at odds with each other over historical issues such as this. A fine example of this point would be the Slovaks and Hungarians getting together in 1975 and making a telivision mini-series on the life of this brilliant man both people can be proud of. But to state that he had no Hungarian roots in one of the above comments when in fact his mother was Hungarian is insane and not being objective!

I, as a Hungarian, will admit that just because someone lived in the Kingdon of Hungary it doesn't mean that he or she was in fact Hungarian. There have been many Hungarians throughout history though, who were not Hungarian ethnically. Yet through assimilation in what was a multi-ethnic country they considered themselves to be Hungarian. Many Hungarians will readily admit to this. Let me give a few examples to illustrate this point.

The famous pianist/composer Franz Liszt did not have a drop of Hungarian blood in his veins. He was born in Hungary in a region predominantly inhabited by Austrians which is now a part of Austria. His surname was originally spelled List which is a common German name. His father changed the spelling to the Hungarian Liszt becaust the letter 's' in Hungarian is pronounced like 'sh' in English. Adding a 'z' in Hungarian after the 's' would preserve the German pronunciation of the name. Without the 'z' the name would be pronounced as Lisht in Hungarian. He never spoke a word of Hungarian. He preferred French. He also spoke German (his native tongue), Italian, Russian, and English. But not Hungarian. And yet this man considered himself to be Hungarian which can be proven in letters he has written stating that he is Hungarian.

The famous "Beater of the Turks" János Hunyadi, was a Hungarian of Romanian descent. Some Hungarians cannot accept this because of animosity towards Romanians. Yet he is a national hero for both peoples. The Hungarian Székely writer, Elek Benedek, in a biography he wrote about the Hunyadi family, wrote that Hungarians should not doubt or be embarassed by this great man's Romanian origins. Being Hungarian myself, I agree with this and thus share with Romanians a common respect for this great hero of both our countries.

The famous Hungarian statesman Lajos Kossuth was of Slovak descent on his paternal side, and German descent on his maternal side. Yet he staunchly considered himself to be a Hungarian.

The greatest of all the Hungarian poets, Sándor Petőfi, likewise was not a Hungarian ethnically. He was of Slavic descent. His father was a Serb, and his mother was a Slovak. Yet he consedered himself to be Hungarian and even changed his Serbian surname Petrovich to the Hungarian Petőfi.

Ethnicity does matter because it is an invaluable part of not only one's history and culture, but most important, of one's identity. I as a Hungarian will admit that Benovsky (or Benyovszky) was a Slav (Polish or Slovak) on his father's side. But his mother was Hungarian. I will also admit as a Hungarian that Hunyadi was a Hungarianized Romanian, Liszt was really a German, and Kossuth was a Hungarianized Slovak/German. Any Hungarian who denies this is wrong. Luckily most do not. As I have stated, credit must go to where it is due. As a Hungarian, if he is Slovak, it doesn't bother me at all. But when someone denies Benyovszky his Hungarian ethnicity which is at least proven on his mother's side, then obviously I would get upset.

I am German on my father's side of the family, and mixed Hungarian/Slavic on my mother's side. I was also born in Italy. I do not feel or consider myself to be German, Slavic,or Italian. I am a Hungarian. What did Benyovszky consider himself to be? Read the bio by Mór Jókai if you can. It will provide some answers.

Also, the year of his birth is not disputed. According to Jókai's biography there is a birth certificate that gives his year of birth as 1746. Biographers outside Austria-Hungary mistakenly wrote his birth as being five years earlier. According to the same biography it mentions one sister and two brothers. The article mentioned two sisters till I changed it.

I have also taken the liberty of removing the statement form the article about Benyovszky's name being a Polish "myth". The name is of Polish origin, not Slovak. Such a statement needs a citation reference to prove otherwise. By denying his Polish descent would not be fair, nor objective. Cerdit given, where credit due.

It is sad that Jókai's bio is only available in Hungarian. It provides a wealth of info on this man. What makes it unique is that a relative of Benyovszky, Sándor Benyovsyky requested that it be written in Hungarian for a Hungarian audience unfamiliar with his life. Gyula 07:17, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] edits

I will admit this article was not composed by me but rather by someone who put a lot of work and effort into it. It is a fine article. Because this is wikipedia, I made ever so slight changes to the text in an attempt to correct minor misconceptions about Benyovszky. My reasons are explained in the comments above.

Because this is wikipedia, someone else has the right to make deletions of my corrections. BUT, if one does so, then please prove me wrong at least here in the discussion section.

I changed his ethnicity from Slovak to Slovak/Hungarian because his mother WAS Hungarian. It was changed back to Slovak, thus denying this man of his Hungarian roots.

I stated in the above comment, that according to Jókai's bio. he had one sister, not two. It was changed back to two with a one in parenthesis, followed by a question mark. Her name was Márta. If he had two sisters, give their names.


Someone also removed the two Hungarian language refferences in the bibliography on this man's life and exploits. Why? Do these sources somehow contradict what the article states about him? Does someone not want people to know these sources exist so they can check it themselves? I am aware these sources are not available in English, but they are sources never the less. And I have explained my reasons in the above comments for the changes I made based on those sources and by explaineing what is stated in those sources to an English speaking audience.

I'm not against nor am I bashing Slovaks. But it seems that someone (possibly) Slovak is against Hungarians. Which is fine. As long as you are objective in your arguments and can prove them. Gyula 21:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

As one of those who take care of this article, I do not see anything controversial in your edits. I would like also to thank you for restoring the deleted sources. Cheers. Tankred 13:49, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Tankred, Thank you for the comment. I have read many of your fine articles on Slovakia and its cities, towns, and castles. I take it you are perhaps Slovak? I took my first trip there a few years ago and visited Bratislava(Pozsony), Trencin(Trencsén), Beckov(Bolondóc), and Cachtice(Csejte). It was a fun trip. I am currently waiting for the Slovak-Hungarian TV movie Vivat Benyovszky! directed by Igor Ciel on DVD that I ordered from Hungary to arrive in the mail. Is this film available in Slovakia? If not, it should be. If so, I hope it promotes peace and friendship between the two countries. Regards Gyula 03:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hello dear reader!

What was the problem with the edits of that pannonia guy? I checked them, they were correct. Is there any chanche to replace them? I am new on the wiki, and yes, I am hungarian, but I dont want to get into any truble, so I would like to ask this, (before I make any change on the article). Bye! Baxter9 15:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi! I made changes in the article? Is it Ok?Baxter9 15:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted that they were croatians, because there is no evidence for this. Réva was the name of the castle, "y" means in hungarian, that they are from Réva only, also according to hungarian sources they spoke in hungarian.

[edit] Name and nationality

As pointed out by other fellow-editors, clear references regarding undeniable Slovak ancestry (and Slovak self-identification) would be needed to clearly call him a "Slovak noble". As far as I know, mainstream Hungarian sources consider him a Hungarian, mainstream Slovak sources - as known from our Slovak fellow-editors - present him as a Slovak, and, of course, Polish sources mention him, as a Pole. Thus, unless clear evidence is presented, all three nationalities should be given equal footing and his name (since this is English Wikipedia) should be written in its internationally recognized or originally matriculated form. Árpád 06:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Another thing, the television serial "Vivát Benyovszky/Vivat Benovsky" should be mentioned under both titles since it is listed under its Hungarian title in www.imdb.com and thus, its identification would be easier for the reader. Árpád 06:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I wonder, if this guy was born 'Benyovszky Móritz Ágost' why is the article entitled 'Móric Beňovský'. Did he change his name later on? Or is it a common practice in Wikipedia to change people's names? It doesn't make much sense to me, the article should carry either his original name, or the english version of that name (since this is the english Wikipedia). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.81.239.39 (talk) 17:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Importance

Beňovský was a typical representative of the period of the Enlightenment, the development of transport and trade, and the exploration of unknown regions. He was:

  • the first European sailor in the North Pacific region — he examined the western coast of Alaska between the mouth of the Yukon and Kuskokwim rivers, sailing along to Unimak Island (Aleutians). His voyage to Macao was the first known voyage from the northeast to the southeast shores of Asia.
  • the first explorer of St. Lawrence Island.
  • a significant explorer of Madagascar and first king of a unified Madagascar.
  • the first Slovak author of a worldwide bestseller.
  • the first Slovak to intervene in the development of many countries (Poland, USA, France, Austria, and Madagascar).
The first item listed under the "Importance" section reads: "the first European sailor in the North Pacific region". What about Vitus Bering? Pfly 03:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I infer you don't consider Semyon Dezhnyov and other Russian sailors to be European? What is your definition of Europe? --Ghirla-трёп- 07:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not saying that Bering was the first, just that Beňovský does not seem to be, as this article claims. Bering was just the first name that came to mind. Pfly 03:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

The article on this fascinating personality desperately needs cleanup. It is full of fatuous statements along the lines of "the independence of Poland from the Russian rule in the Ukraine" or "thanks to Benjamin Franklin's help, Beňovský's descendants kept the spirit of cosmopolitanism and can be found all across Europe". It's difficult to say how exactly old Franklin helped Benyowsky's descendants to "keep the spirit of cosmopolitanism" and to settle "all across Europe". Furthermore, I suggest the biography should be moved to the most common English spelling of the guy's name, which is certainly not "Beňovský". --Ghirla-трёп- 18:57, 19 July 2007 (UTC)