Talk:Lyrebird

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The Lyrebird painting, by John Gould, of the British Museum specimens is now being used on a non-English version of Wikipedia to show what the lyrebird looks like. It is unfortunate and misleading that the painting by John Gould has been used to represent the lyrebird in the encyclopedia, instead of a photo of a live lyrebird. John Gould's painting does have its place, as an historic painting, but it should have been noted that the painting was based on a taxidermy specimen which had been prepared for the British Museum by a taxidermist who had never seen a live lyrebird and only had a dead male lyrebird, with his tail hanging down (i.e. not in courtship display mode), to work on, and that the representation of the tail was unfortunately inaccurate because of the circumstances of neither the taxidermist, nor John Gould (at that time) having ever seen a live lyrebird.

Could somebody please donate a photo of a lyrebird, with tail in courtship display mode, if this is at all possible without using a commercial (copyright) photo. Thanks. Figaro 13:58, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

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[edit] 'Flute' territorial calls

As I have been aware of the lyrebird flute territorial calls for a number of years now, and have also heard recordings of the 'flute' calls over the same period, along with numerous other bird, animal and mechanical sounds which make up lyrebirds' territorial repertoires, I am confident that the flute story is completely genuine. Lyrebirds are amazing mimics. Figaro 00:36, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, remember that Wikipedia has to be based on what published sources say; your personal opinion of what it sounds like is both point of view and original research. (The difficulty with this kind of assessment is the risk of the Observer-expectancy_effect of cognitive bias: when you've been told in advance it sounds like a flute, it'll sound like a flute (compare backward masking).
That leaves us with what external accounts say. David Rothenberg says not everyone thinks that this is true, but quite a few scientists do believe this. Whether his statement is based on systematic research is unclear: he's a musician and philosopher, not a scientist, and the intro to his Why Birds Sing says he "combines the insights of science, poetry and music". His assertion Some people say, "Ridiculous! That's not true." But there's a website that has endless lyrebird songs where you can listen to this is classic priming for observer expectancy effect.
Sydney Curtis says In recent years this story has been disputed on the grounds that a very similar territorial song is found 100 km futher south. But as there has been a period of 70 years for the song to have been culturally transmitted over that distance, it seems to me to be a possibility that that is what happened. I think you will agree that there is something flute-like about the sound quality which is not present in the other two territorial songs, and it does sound as though part of it could have been derived from a musical scale. The Keel Row, if it ever existed, has disappeared, but if you can track down a recording of the Mosquito Dance, you'll find there is a resemblance in the last part of the song. I favour the story being true, but admit there is no first-hand account of it by any descendant of the farmer, whose name has not been discovered.
So it boils down to some experts believing it, but there being no documentary proof.
Personally, I think the story has many characteristics that reek of urban legend, such as the variability in different versions - sometimes the farmer is the flute player, sometimes a daughter, sometimes a son. Tearlach 15:34, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
So I made a mistake with the sex of the flute player. Just because there are various versions, it does not mean that the 'flute' call is an urban myth — please remember that it was supposed to have occurred over 80 years ago. How many accurate details can you supply of something, which occurred in your own country, from the same length of time ago — after all, you are setting yourself up as an expert about what a lyrebird can do, and what it can't do, without any background or authority to do so. The 'flute' call does exist — there are recordings of it.
I wrote my comment about the 'flute' call from memory, having heard about this decades ago - long before the internet was established. I did not even know that the story was on the internet until you gave a link which led to it - you obviously decided to check for information for a 'source' when you became aware of it, after I wrote about it, and then registered your opinion here from information now available on the internet. I have had recordings of lyrebirds' calls for decades, including the 'flute' call. Yours is newborn 'knowledge', and you are not even an Australian - whereas I happen to be an Australian.
Published information on the internet should not be the only source of information available for Wikipedia. People's knowledge of individual topics should also be respected as a source of information for Wikipedia. I did not submit the information about the folk tale of the lyrebird mimicking a fire siren, which you are also disputing the authenticity of, but I have heard comments about this, and evidently the person who did submit this information to Wikipedia, was also aware of the folk tale in question. The criterion should be the reliability of the information supplied, rather than whether or not the information appears on the internet in published material. Not everything has been published on the internet. Figaro 06:08, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
You're mistaken on a number of counts. Some of us have access to newspaper archives, so certainly I don't rely purely on information on the Internet. However, as I've said to you before, the criterion for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability via a cited reputable published source. What you or I remember hearing or reading somewhere way back falls well short of that. See Wikipedia:Verifiability and its subsection Wikipedia:Verifiability#Verifiability, not, truth. Tearlach 13:33, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
After checking, I have discovered that there is a reliable source for the information about the flute music calls. Please see the the reference on the main article for this. Figaro 16:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Good. Which article has the specific detail about Henderson's detective work? You have to admit that there's reason for suspicion, as the whole genre of lyrebird mimicry stories is full of tall tales, like the one about the lyrebird imitating an overloaded chainsaw engine and exploding. Tearlach 23:12, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced text

Australian folklore is rich with tales of lyrebird mimicry. One is the story of a male lyrebird that used to regularly halt 19th century logging operations by mimicking the fire siren. Even if these particular stories may not be true, a hundred others are.

Source? Tearlach 17:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

A possible source, with regard to the fire alarm calls, is the following fact sheet from the Australian Museum - where a loud alarm shriek is mentioned as being among the Superb Lyrebird calls.
A generic reference to an alarm shriek isn't verification for the very specific story above. What folklore? Aboriginal, bush tales, modern ... ? What's the evidence for "a hundred others" being true? See above comment about verifiability via specific reliable published source. Tearlach 13:36, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
You are being finicky about what is acceptable, and what is not acceptable. Folklore is passed on by 'word of mouth', not written down. The item deserves its place in the main article, provided it is acknowledged as folklore, which it was right from the start. You had no right to remove the information.
I have returned the information to the main article under the heading 'Fact or fiction'. This should make it okay.
The Wikipedia instruction about 'citing sources' is so that people who are interested can check the information. It is NOT a 'hard and fast rule' - nor is it compulsory for editors to do so. If this was the case, then this would not be an encyclopedia where people are able to pool their knowledge, or memories. Also, this is supposed to be a free encyclopedia, where anyone can put up articles and edit - sourced or unsourced. Figaro 00:47, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

You're mistaken. Have you bothered to read the guidelines I mentioned? Read again Wikipedia:Verifiability: One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they should refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by a reputable publisher.

Sure, citing sources isn't compulsory at first draft (nor for stuff that is generally agreed to be true) but all editors are expected to actively look for sources. Various other guidelines apply:

Wikipedia:Reliable sources If you can provide useful information to Wikipedia, please do so, but bear in mind that edits for which no credible references are provided may be deleted by any editor. Their emphasis, not mine.

And there's its subsection about unattributed material: Wikipedians often report as facts things they remember hearing about or reading somewhere, but they don't remember where, and they don't have any other corroborating information. It's important to seek credible sources to verify these types of reports, and if they cannot be verified, any editor may delete them. It's always appropriate to ask other editors, "How do you know that?", or "Can you cite your source?"

Now, in the light all that, what is anyone to make of the story about the lyrebird and fire siren? Maybe it's true. And whether true or not, it may well be floating around as folklore. But if you can't demonstrate the story's existence in some published source (e.g. a newspaper article) anyone can remove it on the grounds above. Tearlach 01:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bookcover

Sorry, the licence says explicitly: to illustrate an article discussing the book in question, this article discusses the bird, not about the book and as such it is not allowed. If it is left on, it is a copyright violation, and can be and should be removed. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 02:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Google video

I don't know why but when I try to add the google video link ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3433507052114896375 ) my submission drops half the page. Sorry, if I messed anything up. --12.216.218.194 03:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "A lyrebird's tale"

I changed the title of this subsection to "An Anecdotal Example". The previous title is cute, but probably not appropriate for an encyclopedia article.

Andy 14:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Lyrebird-on-reverse-of-Australian-10-cent-coin.jpg

Image:Lyrebird-on-reverse-of-Australian-10-cent-coin.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)