Talk:Lyonesse

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The quote in the article ("Heerke ye men...") is fairly obviously pure invention in a pseudo-archaic style, with spellings distorted to give a superficial resemblance to Middle English. Unless some better source for it can be found than "an ancient book discovered in an old castle", it ought to be disposed of. 24.39.212.83 01:37, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

I think the information on the City of Lions can easily be accomodated in this article. Madmedea 10:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree. DuncanHill 11:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Ditto. --Cúchullain ^t/c 21:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I've merged what little was worth saving from the other page, now redirected here. Enaidmawr (talk) 00:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Needs reworking

This article is not really up to Wikipedia standards; there's a lot of shoddy research, and modern fictions are presented as if they were legends of great antiquity, or even as if they have a basis in fact. It's impossible to track down the sources of this research and evaluate them, however, because nothing is cited! RandomCritic 13:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The "Kings of Lyonesse" section is particularly egregious in this regard. I have no idea where this information comes from, but it is clearly neither old nor reliable, let alone "derived from Welsh myth". One clear giveaway is the use of the very late English form "Tristram" together with Welsh epithets, as if it were a Welsh name. In fact, when Tristan appears in medieval Welsh stories (very briefly and obscurely, btw), it is as Drystan fab Tallwch, a clear allusion to a Pictish hero, Drust son of Talorc (which underscores, btw, the originally northern -- not Cornish -- connections of the Tristan character). Meliodas only appears in the late French Prose Tristan -- in earlier Tristan legends, various names, none looking like Tallwch or Talorc, appear, showing that Tristan got inserted in the continental romances without a fixed patronymic. The list of Kings of Lyonesse is a palpable fiction, and I should be surprised if it's over a century old, if that. If it's properly sourced and characterized it can stay -- presumably in the modern fiction section -- otherwise, it should really just be deleted. RandomCritic 13:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Nigel Pennick's book Lost Lands and Sunken Cities, and the map of Lyonesse drawn by Agnes Strickland, plus the website [1] and a number of others of a similar nature devoted to genealogy. TharkunColl 15:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

What in interesting website. You didn't notice something funny about a genealogy asserting the existence of a Juan of Castile and a Maria of Castile in the 6th century? You understand that there was no such place as the Kingdom of Castile in the 6th century, when Spain was controlled by Romans and Visigoths? That genealogy is a tissue of fabrications, completely worthless. RandomCritic 16:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

We are talking legend here, not history. Do you not understand the difference? TharkunColl 17:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem is the article doesn't distinguish between what comes from old legend, what comes from modern fiction, and what is true. This needs to be remedied.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Cúchullain and RandomCritic. The "Kings of Lyonesse" section is not encyclopedic, for all the reasons given above. As someone who is familiar with medieval Welsh literature and tradition, I'd like to know where the names "Tristram Fawr/Fychan" come from. The source is a single late Italian romance. I admit I've not read it, but am quite sure those are not the forms found there. So, what is their provenance? They're modern Welsh (Fawr is "(the) Great" by the way, not "the Elder" as given here...) and as pointed out above, Drystan is the name found in Middle Welsh. The articles on these supposed kings need looking at as well. Enaidmawr (talk) 01:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)