Talk:Lydia Koidula

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[edit] Petri Krohn's weird manipulations

Petri Krohn has twice ([1], [2]) attempted to push the claim of Lydia Koidula having born in Livonia. This claim is true only insomuch as her birthplace was in the administrative Livonian Governorate of Russian Empire. However, the governorate borders were in this context relatively arbitrary, and from Koidula's literature, it's clear she considered her dwelling place to be Estonia, based on ethnic domination of Estonians around her, rather than Livonia, which she would have understood as the place where mostly Livonias lived. I believe assigning undue weight to an arbitrary administrative division in the context of this birth is a bad idea, akin to saying somebody was "born in a wooden house (now torn down)", and consequently, have reverted. Digwuren 19:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The administrative division was called the Riga Governorate, not the Livonian Governorate. Livonia ceased to exist after the Polish-Swedish War of the 1620s, so Lydia must have been very, very old if Petri claims she was born in Livonia. I think any further reverts by Petri must be considered plain and simple vandalism. Martintg 21:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Riga Governorate (and variants thereof) were the 'official name' for imperial business. However, Livonian Governorate (and variants thereof) were routinely used for local affairs; importantly in this context, for denoting administration of any particular parcel of land. Digwuren 00:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
The words Estonia and Livonia (or Estland and Livland) were generally used in the 19th century the refer to these lands, instead of the names of the Russian administrative divisions.
I interrupt this tirade to point out that Petri Krohn is wrong here. Digwuren 00:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Also, it would be untrue to claim, that Vändra was in Estonia in 1843. At that point "Greater Estonia" was still a romantic notion in the minds of nationalist.
I interrupt this tirade to point out that Petri Krohn is wrong here, on at least two points, and appears to have found Yet Another peculiar idea, this time of "Greater Estonia". Digwuren 00:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
As to undue weight:
1. The article mentions Estonia, and the fact that Koidula was an Estonian writer, a total of 35 times.
I interrupt this tirade to point out that Petri Krohn is using a completely useless metric in vain hope of proving a point. What next, balancing vowel counts? Digwuren 00:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
2. Being born in Livonia, outside what was then Estonia, was most likely one of the facts contributing to her nationalism. This fact certainly deserves mention in the article.
I interrupt this tirade to point out that Petri Krohn is pulling nonsense out of Some Dark Place That Shall Be Left Unnamed here. Digwuren 00:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
-- Petri Krohn 00:01, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Upon thorough checking, repeated rereading and comparing with the sources, I must admit Petri Krohn appears to have made no obvious errors in signing this tirade. I express my amazement. Digwuren 00:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Per our naming conventions, we should go with historical nomenclature, rather than with the modern one. For instance, it is erronenous to say that Schopenhauer hailed from Gdansk or that Kant lived in Kaliningrad. We've been through this mined ground thousand times before, and your bickering cannot change the consensus. Koidula was born in Russia and not in Estonia, because there was no such state at the time. What is more interesting and deserves further investigation, is the origin of the term "Estonians". As I understand, it was introduced into Estonian in the 1860s. Where can I read about it in Wikipedia? Who coined the term "Estonia" and for what reasons? What was the Estonian name for Estonians and Estonia before that? --Ghirla-трёп- 05:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

The issue is not about naming a region whose name changed over time, thus naming conventions do not apply the way you're suggesting. The issue is that 'Estonia' does not necessarily refer to an administrative unit of the similar name; this concept also refers to 'the land of Estonians', and this usage has been there since antiquity. I have alrady explained the discrepancy between the administrative borders and the spread of Estonians and Latvians elsewhere. Digwuren 08:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
The article says that Tartu was "the most progressive town of Estonia". For some reason, Ghirlandajo has not seen it fit to point out that the Estonian town of Tartu was also taxed and administered via the Governorate of Riga at the time. Could it be a simple oversight in his quest to assert imperial claims, possibly mediated by his lack of understanding of geography of Estonia? Digwuren 10:39, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
"Aesti" was first used in writing by Tacitus on year 98. Estonians used "maa-rahvas" (or "maarahvas") about themselves, meaning just "people of the land". It is unknown when Estonians started to think of themselves as "eestlased", but on 1857, father of Lydia Koidula (and my ancestor/relative as well), J.V. Jannsen (1819-1890), used "Tere, armas eesti rahvas!" ("Hello, good Estonian people") in his newspaper.
Term was also used in English. Thomas Hodgkin wrote as a commentary in "Letters of Cassiodorus" [3] "[Sidenote: The Haesti, dwellers by the Baltic. Their present of amber.]" and "[These are the Aestii of Tacitus, dwelling in or on the south border of the country which is still called Esthonia. Tacitus also mentions their quest of amber[374].]"
I will at some point start an article about the term Eesti/Estonia, but not in neat future - my schedule is... not good, and my weekends are booked for a next month or more. If someone else wants to start the article, then please, go ahead.

DLX 06:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Ive have changed the statement so it no longer has ambiguity over the naming of the territory. Readers come first. Current statement makes it clear to every one what place are we talking about and where it is. Pushing livonia into it is undue weight and gives nothing to the reader as the birthplaces administrative location is already mentioned. Your debate belongs to an article about the roots of the name Estonians.--Alexia Death 08:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Although I have also said this elsewhere, I feel a need to point out that 'maarahvas' is not really a name; it's a description, or perhaps, an euphemism. Digwuren 08:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
"Maarahvas" means "country folk" and is a description by nature.--Alexia Death 08:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Alexia Death has suggested a compromise. I appreciate the thought, but I believe that such level of detail regarding administrative belongingness is out of place for the lead. I have left her changes in the next parts of the article unchanged, though.

Furthermore, I'm pointing out that "Pernov" and "Pärnu" are not distinct names; "Pernov" (typographically also sometimes Pernow), as well as Perno, Pernau and Pernu) are merely attempts to write down the native name of the city in various spelling systems. This applies to most German names of Estonian places, actually; a few notorious exceptions are Reval, Ösel and Wesenberg. The similarity between local name and German spelling is less obvious in case of Fellin. What's happening here is even less of an multi-naming than the Tarbatu->(Tartu, Terbata, Dorpat, Derpt) situation, in which case the name has also mutated according to distinct linguistic customs. Digwuren 11:24, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Petri Krohn has repeatedly tried to push "Livonia" instead of "Livonian Governorate". This is even more wrong; the geographic Livonia was hundreds of kilometres to the south from Vändra. It is important to realise that the names of Russian Empire's governorates were assigned based on relatively random nearby locations, and sometimes didn't overlap much with the geographical regions, or features, of the same names. Digwuren 12:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] K.I.S.S

"Keep it simple, stupid"? It does not mean misleadingly simple. Please comment your rationale because the current shape of that sentence you keep messing with was made in cooperation and discussion of many editors.--Alexia Death 18:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

  • EXAMPLE: We could say she was born on Earth. That would be true and simple! But you get 0 information out of it.--Alexia Death 18:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

A primary aim of the Estonian national awakening was the unification of Estonian lands. Lydia Koidula was not born in Estland or any other territory known as Estonia. the place was called Livonia. This fact was cruical to the development of her romantic nationalism. You now have ESTONIA mentioned 35 times. How many more do you want??? I think 35 to 1 would be WP:UNDUE, 36 to 0 would be {{totallydisputed}}. -- Petri Krohn 19:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Petri, where the hell are you pulling such theories? At that time both Estonian and Livonian governates were fully dominated by Baltic Germans, local people Estonians and Latvians did not have any power at all and for them difference between governates was irrelevant. Whole point of Estonian national awakening was realizing that Estonian ancestry is not something that intelligent people should be ashamed of. It was to realize that Estonian language is not only language of uneducated peasants that all educated people should avoid. Your alternative history(im quite generous as it could be also described with more colourful words) about territorial claims is totally ridiculous. Issue of uniting Estonian speaking areas into one governate rised only in 20th century then Estonians had already their own political parties and they had started to compete with Germans and Russians for local power.--Staberinde 21:42, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
No, you're wrong. (Maybe we need a [[Category:Petri Krohn's misconceptions]].) The primary aim of Estonian national awakening was development of Estonian culture as distinct from the ruling Germanic culture, and later, political independence from both external rulers, both Russian and German. No "unification" was necessary, or discussed much, before the time came to actually proclaim the Republic. The geographic Estonia had been a single ethnopolitic entity for centuries, and the inter-governorate border was insignificant for all partial purposes. Digwuren 17:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Livonia ceased to exist atleast two hundred years before Lydia was born, thanks to the Swedes. Your contention that Lydia was born there is just plain wrong. --Martintg 19:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the story of disappearance of Livonia -- tied to disappearance of the Livonians -- is more complicated. Still, Petri Krohn is merely trying to portrait Estonians as invading and annexing a part of a hypothetical "Livonian state" to satisfy their imperial desires to form a "Great Estonia" out of what, by now, can only be explained as malicious hatred of all things Estonian. It goes without saying that such a notion is incorrect. Digwuren 17:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Please state clearly what are you disputing. That it is clearer in clarification of territory to use modern references? It has been made clear that the land was run through a different governorate. The rest is WP:UNDUE unless in specif context of unification. It is a bibliography, not an article about the whole historic period. And IMHO, {{totallydisputed}} is way exaggerated in a wording debate! --Alexia Death 19:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Ive removed the tag. If someone else besides Petri Krohn restores it I wont take it off again. If its Petri that restores it, if he does not explain, im going to remove it again.--Alexia Death 19:26, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

For geographical purposes, Russian imperial governorates were sometimes quite useless. The borders were rather arbitrary, and even though the governorate names used to reuse nearby geographical names, they didn't always coincide. Luckily, the governorate borders were not significant for everyday business. Denoting somebody's birthplace through a governorate is like saying "he was born in the 3th taxation zone" or "in 8th federal district before the gerrymandering of 1963". As Alexia Death pointed out -- very wisely --, the reader is primary. The reader does not get any useful information about the birthplace from describing it in terms of long-defunct arbitrary administrative system. Digwuren 11:50, 15 June 2007 (UTC)