Talk:Lusus

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"In the Lusiads (Os Lusíadas) of Luís de Camões (printed 1572), the literary work that was created to form a national epic for Portugal, Lusus was progenitor of his tribe (the "Lusiads") and founder of Lusitania, the Roman province that roughly corresponded to modern Portugal. Among its Iberian and Celtic tribal inhabitants, there were no historical "Lusii" to have a tribal eponym, "Lusus". Instead, the province took its Latin name from the warbands of the Lusitani who banded together, drawn from several tribes, to counter the Roman domination, until their leader Viriatus, was killed in 139 BCE."

• I think Lusitani and Lusus are way to similar. The Lusitanians and the Lusoni were two particular tribes. The name Lusitanian to several tribes was done by the Romans. Because these tribes joined the Lusitanians (the most numerous) and the most brave. Nether Jupiter or Atena existed has people, like Lusus dindt. -Pedro 15:14, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • The Lusiads, like the Aeneid is a work of poetry, not a work of history. Camoes created a mythology to suit his purpose, which was more than just artistic, not unlike Virgil's program. For another example of Camoes' created mythology, see Adamastor. I'm sure the Lusitanian tribes were all brave— but did any Roman source mention Lusii? Wikipedia needs an article on the Lusoni, by the way. Does an eponymous "Lusus" of the "Lusii" appear in any writings earlier than Camoes? If so, a reference should be worked into the article. What do Portuguese literary critics make of "Lusus"? They should be quoted in this article (in English one hopes). --Wetman 18:22, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

See talk:Lusitania for "Luso" prior to Camoens. There are several tribes in the era of the Lusitanians. I've done some work on this in the Port. language wikipedia, we dont know a lot about these peoples. :( and some are very interresting ones. The Lusoni were a people in Spain, nothing special about them, just people confuse them with Lusitanians, but possibly these two tribes are related. Yes, Camoens created also the "Ilha dos Amores" (Love Island) the "Tagides" (Nimphae from Tagus) but Luso, it doesnt seem to me... read the talk in lusitania. -Pedro 22:28, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"For the 16th century Portuguese, restive to be free of Spain, and looking back in the wake of the Reconquista for a sense of national origins, it was important to establish a link, beyond Moorish domination or Visigoths tainted with Arianism to the high culture and secure Catholicism of Roman Lusitania."

• What????? it is because of this this article is POV and stupid. Portugal joined Spain in 1580, has it said even in the article the book was printed in 1572. king Sebastian died in 1578! By the way, Portugal did not need to justify its independence, why some English speaking people think that? Why I'm constatly reading these assumptions in English? It is because of what is known in English has "Spanish Armada" that was in fact the "invencible Armada"? It is because the written language seems so similar? it is because the culture and genetic similarity between the two people? I dont get it. Why would Camones need to justify the difference between Portuguese and Spanish in the Golden Period of the nation and in the time the country already enjoyed more than 440 yrs of existance (much more than any former british colony of nowadays)? I dont get it. -Pedro 15:14, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Portugal did not "join" Spain, and Castile was looming over Portugal in the 1570s, was it not? Perhaps PedroPVZ will give this article some more nuanced and sophisticated background for the Portuguese cultural history of the 1560s and 70s, out of which Os Lusíadas arose. --Wetman 18:22, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Castille was always trying to dominate Portugal, that was its role in the Iberian Peninsula (to dominate the rest~, has I know even the Vatican supported it, they wanted the Christians to be together). It was looming after the death of King Sebastian, and yes, them (after his death) a lot of people became very worry, but not before. But that was years after the book was writen! The Lusiad is not the armaggedon! Weel, before this time, some two centuries before (1383-1385), Castille also tried to gain Portugal. And in that time, Portugal was very devided (North and South), the North culturally and religiously related with Galicia (that also shared the language) even supported the "join", the south didnt want. I even remember studying in school, the map with the cities that supported the union, and those cities that didnt support. In that time yes, Portugal was in trouble and devided. But not in the Golden Period, the country was them very powerful. The only problems they had, has I read it (exagerated obviously ;)): "we dont know what to do with so many treasures!" and "how can we populate our colonies if the south of the country is barely populated? let's mix with some slaves!". They didnt care about Spain. The country then was more powerful that Spain.
• It was very complicating for Castille to rule over the basque ppl and the Catolinians, peoples that are less related with them than the Portuguese. The Portuguese independence is still today watched by these nations in Spain. The Lusiad was just a return to the roots, people always celebrated to Roman roots of the nation, and obviously they always tried to search more deeper things. And yes, The Barbarians (it could be a good source, many say the Suevi were very important to the Portuguese nationality) and especially the Arabs ("how can some one even say this?") were not good sources for that. -Pedro 22:28, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Portugal more powerfull than Spain in the 1570's? It was historicly Spain's time then! With the rise of John III and Sebastian the Empire of the western beach was dying. Was Portugal fighting for getting rid of Spain? No, they were independent then. But was the Siglo de Oro Spain hovering over Lusitania as a vulture over a dying man expecting for the right time to expand the Empire where the sun never set? Yes, and the nationalism in which Camoens inscribed himself was in constant reaction and counterreaction to this efforts of the Spanish kingdom. And anyway, after the 1383 - 1385 crisis, the Portuguese, as a reaction to the Castilian expansionism became very nacionalistic and started looking for primivil rots, as Fernão Lopes said: Castille was a tree and Portugal was another completly different.

[edit] Discussion of Lusus moved from Talk:Lusitania

(This has been moved unedited. --Wetman 02:48, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC))

Perhaps PedroPVZ can name the books in which the figure of Lusus appears: titles, authors, date and place of publication are all essential. In the meantime I have put in a reference to the only classical text I can find in which lusus is ever taken to be a proper name, rather than meaning simply 'play'. —Charles P. ^(Mirv) 06:01, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Well an article in wikipedia is not the best. But I saw it IN Encliclopedia de Mitologia Grega e Romana. (Roman and Greek Mythology Encyclopedia) I dont know the author. I dont havee the book, it is my city's library. But because the Lusiad is also considered a classic epic and it could be the origin. I'm going to search. -Pedro 14:31, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What camoens wrote (he wrote in a maner that he did not know for sure. And by what I know he didnt create the Roman mythology and he study it a lot). The article Lusus is POV. But I'm not saying that you can't be wright.

Esta é a ditosa Pátria minha amada,

À qual se o Céu me dá que eu sem perigo

Torne, com esta empresa já acabada,

Acabe-se esta luz ali comigo.

Esta foi Lusitânia, derivada de (this was Lusitania, derived from)

De Luso ou Lisa, que de Baco antigo (Luso or Lisa, that from ancient Baccus)

Filhos foram, parece, ou companheiros, (sons they were, it seems, or companions)

E nela antam os íncolas primeiros. (and in her [Lusitania] they were the first inhabitants)

just read the official explanation of this part of the poem (from Instituto Camões - the institute for the Portuguese language, culture, and works of Camoens)

21.5-8 "Esta foi Lusitânia, derivada / De Luso ou Lisa ...": "Igitur tam a Luso, quam a Lysia, regio nomen adcepit. Et a Luso quidem, Lusitania dicta est. A Lysia vero Lysitania. Utroque enim modo adpellatur, teste Stephano." (in Vincent., "Adnotationes", II.24.)

(Translation: Therefore the kingdom takes its name from Lusus as well as from Lysia. And indeed, from Lusus it is called "Lusitania"; from Lysia, it is truly called Lysitania. For as Stephano [Stephen?] testifies, it is called by both names.)

Who is this Vincent who wrote these Adnotationes? A lead I turned up points to Vincent Justinian Antist—a 16th-century author. The only classical text I can find that mentions lusus (which does mean 'game', by the way, just like ludus—check the Perseus lexicon), lyssa, and Bacchus together is the passage from Pliny. If Lusus and Lisa were well-known figures of classical myth, as close associates of Bacchus would be, one would think that they'd appear elsewhere. Perhaps the Encliclopedia de Mitologia Grega e Romana has references to the classical texts—but remember that even though Camões writes in a classical style, he is not a primary source for classical myth. Until we find more classical texts that mention this pair, I will restore the Pliny reference, with both translations explained. —Charles P. ^(Mirv) 21:08, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Mister, I think we are not talking the same language. LOL. I dindt said that Camoens was some sort of Roman story teller, he just bases his work on Roman Mythology, it doesnt seem to me that he would create that from his mind, he researched it! That is clear. Your new explanation is better, try to investigate that one I gave you, and if you can put that in the article and stop guessing things! IN ANY WAY, the name Lusitania comes from Luso (try to search Luso instead of Lusus), put that in your mind! Lusitania is not a Roman name! Luso is a myth. Rewrite what you wrote in the article to a realistic thing. People start thinking that the name is from Luso or Lisa, when by 100% of certaincy it is not. -Pedro 21:58, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I know, he based the style on classical epics like the Odyssey and the Aeneid, and he based the characters on Roman myths. The reference to Vincent's Adnotationes makes it fairly clear that he didn't come up with it, either; it was just convenient for Lusitania to have a mythical founder, like Romulus or Hellen, and I suspect that is why the passage from Pliny originally acquired proper nouns to replace its common nouns.

Regarding Pliny's etymology, yes, it's obviously nonsensical; I could make that clearer. Where does the Celtic etymology come from, by the way? I couldn't find anything reliable about the origin of the name Lusitani. —Charles P. ^(Mirv) 02:15, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• • Many think the Lusiad is too well written for Camões, and some theorize that many after him, changed it and made it more perfect. I dont know if you read the Lusiad, but it is so perfectly made, and it is know that he could only made it with a lot of excelent sources, in fact, Portugal still has a very big and sizable collection of rare manuscripts, now most are protected in a bunker. About the word "Lusitania" that is a 500 euro question. I dont know. In fact, other authors, classify "Lusitania" has "city of light" (dont ask me who and where, I cant recall) rather than "Tribe of Lusus". -Pedro 12:40, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

search in this Italian site, [1] I dont know if it is. -Pedro 22:53, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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