Talk:Luso American

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Contents

[edit] Brazilian Americans should not be described in this article

Just like English and Americans, the Portuguese and Brazilians are distinct cultures and should be placed in different articles.


Can someone help me understand where Cape Verdean fit into the discussion?

This article is about LUSO-American (what includes Brazilians) and not only PORTUGUESE-American.--Leonardo Alves 19:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

actually, i've heard that there are people of portuguese descent in brazil. it seems to me that kind of complicated things a bit. Gringo300 04:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Luso-Americans equals Portuguese Americans.

This discussion was a mess, with Poorlywritten (author of the unsigned posts, and apparently a sock puppet whose only edits are on this talk page) creating a new section for each reply. I tried to organize the mess here. --Cotoco 19:45, 5 December 2005 (UTC)



I do not believe that Brazilians and other non-Portuguese belong here. "Luso" applies only to those who identify with Portugal. I doubt Brazilians do aside from language and history. Nelson Ricardo 11:00, May 16, 2005 (UTC)


Portuguese-American and Luso-American clearly means persons from Portugal continent and Azores and Madeira islands.No one else falls under that definition.

The Melungeons claim on this "Luso-American" page is misinformed and or is attempting to mislead people.

I Quote Melungeon Heritage Association:

"To date we've found no sequences that can be definitively traced back to uniquely Portuguese sequences" More here http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/DE-AfricaAmer/2002-06/1024544749

Infact nothing Melungeon is uniquely Portuguese not even the name itself "Melungeon".

Few other things:

-Dinesh D'Souza (Does not have Portuguese ancestry)

-Adriana Lima (Does not have Portuguese ancestry)

-Bidu Sayao (Does not have Portuguese ancestry)

If this is the case with these people then i guess we claim most of south America as "Spaniads-Americans"

A line has to be Drawn. -- originally unsigned, by User:Poorlywritten


LUSO is not ONLY Portuguese, but those whose culture are based on the Galician-Portuguese-Creole languages. Many Indo-Portugues or German-Brazilians have none portuguese blood, but due the language/culture are identified with.--Leonardo Alves 00:00, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


A person who identified themselves as "Luso-American" are Portuguese from Portugal and of Portuguese ancestry.
Poeple from x-colonies living in the United States of America are NOT Luso-Americans.For example Brazilians are Brazilian-Americans and so on.
Americans are not English-Americans now are they? -- originally unsigned, by User:Poorlywritten


Not really, I am Brazilian-American and I self-identify with the Luso culture. As well as Luso institutions like the MAPS (Massachusetts Alliance of Portuguese Speakers), LUSOFONIA, and others include all of Luso heritage (Continental Portuguese, Azoreans, Portuguese Sephardim, Brazilian, Cape Verdean, etc)
--Leonardo Alves 23:36, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


As you can see you joined Portuguese SPEAKING organizations.But you are not Luso-American.Which means that country in Europe.You are from an excolony,you are no longer LUSO.But you are from a place which spoke Portuguese.But now you live in American and im sure if anyone asks you what is your heritage you do not reply with "Luso-American".
As i said before United States sister country is England but Americans whether they live in American or immigrate out NEVER lable themselfs by the language they speak,English-American and they do not identify themselfs with British culture.The calls themselfs what they are Americans.As you are Brazilian-American. -- originally unsigned, by User:Poorlywritten


Here,from Wikipedia section on "Empire of Brazil":
"tension between Portuguese troops and the Luso-Brazilians (Brazilians born in Portugal)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Brazil -- originally unsigned, by User:Poorlywritten


I've fixed that, by the way, in Southern Brazil, (Parana, Santa Catarina, Rio Grande do Sul) where the German, Italian, and Slav communities are virtually equal to the native one, guess what is the popular term to identify ethnicities: Teuto-Brasileiro, Italo-Brasileiro, Eslavo-Brasileiro e LUSO-BRASILEIRO, which is applied for those whose more dominant culture is of Portuguese-speaking heritage, not matter if an individual is of azorean-catarinense, gaucho, paulista, and mestizo.
LUSO is someone from the LUSOFONIC nations: check this [1]
--Leonardo Alves 01:16, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


I have read the link,here is what it says:
Lusofonia is the Portuguese word used to designate the Portuguese speaking Countries and communities.
It is language that bonds these people but the definition of the word Lusofonia does not mean ancestry/.If you want to have a language section for Lusofonia-Americans (Poeple of former xcolonies who once and or still speak Portuguese including Luso-Americans) then do so.But,to say you are Luso-American is clearly wrong and false.You are Brazilian-American not Luso-American.
I do not know how to make it any more clear.I go back to England,English speaking countries do not call themselfs English.If an Irish person moves to America he is seen as Irish-American not English-American.
Luso clearly means of Portugal. (including Azores and Madeira they are regions of Portugal.)
http://www.flad.pt/
I can not believe you do not understand that. -- originally unsigned, by User:Poorlywritten


Now (after the reorganization):

I won't go into whether the word means or should mean people from Portugal, of recent Portuguese ancestry, of any Portuguese ancestry, from a Lusophone country, of Lusophone ancestry, someone who self-identifies in any way with Portugal, etc. A case can be made for any of those definitions, and many more, depending on the context and people using it. I have my personal opinion as to the best use of it, but I won't profess it here unless I need to, and I don't think that at the moment one can argue what the "correct" use of it is.

That said, here is what I have to add:

  • Many Brazilians, as well as people from other former colonies, do identify with Portugal and Portuguese culture, to some level. In Brazil, for example, you can probably say that most people have some Portuguese "blood", even if, at the same time, most of them are not of 100% Portuguese ancestry. In many cases that ancestry will be somewhat distant, but let's not forget that immigration from Portugal didn't cease after independence; on the contrary, even today you can still find many first-generation immigrants from Portugal. And, of course, the language is spoken by virtually everyone in the country. While the average Brazilian in Brazil will most likely not readily indentify with Portugal (when basically all they know is Brazil), I believe that when they leave the country, their tendency to identify with Portugal grows.
  • English-speaking USers are not called English-Americans for historic reasons, I presume; mostly because they were historically the majority, as well as "founders" of the country. In contrast, see for example South Africa, where (it's my understanding) English-speaking whites are called "English", no matter what their ancestry is. In English-speaking Canada, Francophone Canadians are commonly called French-Canadians, or (ugh!) just French, regardless of ancestry.
  • Poorlywritten's definition seems to be especially strict, as he seems to indicate only people born in Portugal and living in the US would qualify as Luso-Americans. I'm sure most of the US-born children (and even grandchildren and beyond, in some cases) of Portuguese-born immigrants in the US would classify themselves as Luso- or Portuguese-Americans, especially (but not necessarily only) if of "unmixed" blood.

--Cotoco 20:29, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I had forgotten this:

  • Yes, Spanish speaking people in the US are indeed called either Spanish or Hispanic, regardless of whether they have Spanish ancestry. --Cotoco 10:18, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] John Wilkes Booth

I removed the following line from the list of people:

  • John Wilkes Booth, Actor and Abraham Lincoln's murder. Sephardi of Portuguese roots

I quickly checked his page, as well as his father's. Nowhere is there any occurrence of the strings "luso", "jew", "sephard" or "portug". All of his ancestors and relatives mentioned in these pages seem to be from Great Britain. Maybe there's something on his mother's side, and she doesn't have a page, but the little information we have (her name, for example) doesn't seem to hint at anything luso. It seems like if it is true he has Portuguese roots, those are distant and not enough to classify him as a "Luso-American".

Of course I only did a quick scan of those articles, and did not do any research outside of that. Feel free to reinsert the line if you know otherwise. Oh, I almost forgot; if you do that, please fix "murderER". --Cotoco 19:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Luso American quals Portuguese Americans from Portugal

Luso-American is broken down to two definitions/classifications Those of Portuguese ancestry(Luso meaning of Portugal)and those who speak a Portuguese language.

Its not that hard to figure out that Luso-American means just that of Portuguese ancestry.

You guys keep bringing up Brazil and ill keep bringing up English X-colonies as in Jamaica.Jamaicans do not write down on the United States census "Anglo-Jamaican" now do they? So why are you agruing against Luso-American to mean of Portugal?

Clearly every census study (whether U.S.A or other countries) defines Luso as to mean of Portugal. for example: http://www.euroamericans.net/portuguese.htm


A line has to be drawn and the identity of these Americans means of Portugal.Otherwise its a mess.

I do not mean they have to be born in Portugal.obviously not.Having Luso Heritage means Republic of Portugal ancestry.yes FROM Portugal.Both my parents, parents came from Portugal i am of second generation Luso-American.plain and simple.


By the way,Hispanic means of the Iberian peninsula.Mexicans are not Hispanica,in language yes.Mexicans are Mexicans of Mexico not Hispania.

Next time you run into someone of Mexican heritage ask him if he or she is Spanish......

[edit] Their was no mess

There was no mess.I replied in my own sections which was broken up neatly. The page is now a mess without the neatly broken up comment sections.

[edit] Related

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic

[edit] How often are you going to rewrite this page?

"Luso-Americans or Lusitanic American is an American whose backgroud culture is from Portuguese language cultures."

Luso=Lusitanian=Portugal=European.

What does Portuguese language cultures mean? as i am aware Portugal has, is one culture.

== Wikipedia and the loss of identity ==

No longer are Luso Americans Portuguese they are now a politically correct definition.

In case you forgot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal

[edit] Merge

Merged from Portuguese in the United States... Please review. - Ekevu (talk) 01:13, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, I was taking a look at what links here, and... nobody uses "Luso American", everyone uses "Luso-American"... Shouldn't we do something for consistence? - Ekevu (talk) 01:13, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

It's to be consistent with other articles, such as German American or Irish American or Chinese American. Those aren't hyphenated. See Category:Ethnic groups in the United States, where many (perhaps most, although not all) are not hyphenated. --Mark Adler (Markles) 05:40, 27 December 2005 (UTC).


The article written "Portuguese in the United States" refers to language like this "Luso American" page and not ethnicity which the users "Cotoco " and "Leonardo Alves" have so kindly written for wikipedia.

[edit] Famous Luso-Americans

Notice they are all of Iberian (Portuguese ancestry)and not x colonies.

[edit] Mark Teixeira

besides his last name, is there any evidence that he's of Portuguese descent? Streamless 19:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Where else would he have gotten that last name? Besides, look at his facial features and tell me he's not at least partially Portuguese. I don't have an Italian last name, but then again, I'm not adopted, and my blood's not Italian (that I know of, anyway!)

i don't think that qualifies as verifying your assertion. Streamless 19:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Names I removed

  • Tom Hanks - not sure why people think his mother is of Portuguese descent. I've read a book bio that had a long family tree, and there was nothing remotely Portuguese sounding about any of his ancestors. Does anyone have a good source?
  • Sam Mendes - as far as I know, not an American
  • Also - is there any way to get "Portuguese" in the title of this page? Most people browing these pages would recognize "Portuguese" over "Luzo". JackO'Lantern 07:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

There is a redirect from Portuguese American to this article. Also, title it as "Portuguese-American" would exclude people of Lusophone heritage who are not from Portugal. --Leonardo Alves 16:29, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Tom Hanks is from Fraga family. See [2]. --True. Hanks has Portuguese ancestry, though minimal. Many individuals with partial Portuguese ancestry that I know choose not to divulge that part of their heritage for whatever reasons.

[edit] Paula Abdul?

Why is Paula Abdul on the list? It says on her bio that her dad is a Brazillian of Syrian Jewish ancestry. (I thought she was Egyptian.) That’s nowhere near Portugal, Gallicia, or the rest of Iberia. Brazillians are not Portuguese just like Mexicans and Central Americans are not real Spanish (they’re mostly Spanish speaking Native American Indians). Brazillians just speak Portuguese just like Americans and Canadians speak English. But that doesn't make them British or of British Ancestry. Brazil is multi-ethnic country just like US, Canada, Mexico, and the rest of South America. They have a large Italian, Lebanese, and Syrian Christian community in Brazil and a Welsh and Germany community that’s been there since the mid 19th century. The only Portuguese Americans that should be listed are those whose ancestors fled directly to the US because of poverty and settled in the New England states or San Francsisco and southern California and finally moving to Hawaii as plantation workers and ranchers. Check it out: Portuguese Americans Portuguese in Hawaii --James 00:04, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

_______________________

Lusitanic, Lusophone, Luso-American means of Portuguese-Speaking countries or cultural area, not a matter of ancestry. Even Portugal today is multi-ethnic nation. --Leonardo Alves 00:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Fine if thats the case then Anglo-American [[3]] means Anglo/English-speaking countries or cultural area.Even today England is a multi-ethnic nation.


Spanish-American means Spanish speaking countries or cultural area.Even today Spain is a multi-ethnic nation.


Romance language/Americans means Romance-speaking countries or cultural area.Even today Italy is a multi-ethnic nation.


Luso-American Portuguese ancestry (Portugal,Madeira and Azores)

Brazilian-American Brazilian ancestry (Country of Brazil)

Portuguese-Americans Americans from Portugal or of Portuguese ancestry

Luso:

Main Entry: Lu·so- Pronunciation: "lü-(")sO Function: combining form Etymology: Portuguese, from lusitano Portuguese, from Latin Lusitanus of Lusitania (ancient region corresponding approximately to modern Portugal)

Portuguese and <Luso-Brazilian>

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/luso



Luso Speaking people/Portuguese speaking people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic_distribution_of_the_Portuguese_language





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_American (Funny no mention of xcolonies or people who speaking the language being labled as British.)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:English_Americans (Same here)


Lusophone does means portuguese-speaking, Luso-american, I don't know, but Lusitanic doesn't. That only referres to Lusitania (Portugal).

[edit] Title of list

Would anyone mind if I changed the title of the list (but not the article) to "List of Americans of Portuguese and Luslo descent"? It's just there's been a big discussion lately on these ethnicity lists, and listing people with more distant ancestry - even less then both parents - who may not consider themselves "xxx-Americans". "Americans of xxx descent" would allow for no particular standards of inclusion to be needed. Mad Jack O'Lantern 07:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm also going to source the list. Mad Jack O'Lantern 07:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, could be a good idea to create a few separate lists (i.e. all on this page) - one for people of direct Portuguese descent, another for Brazilian, etc. Mad Jack O'Lantern 07:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


Isnt it obvious the creators of these "Portuguese-Americans and Luso-Americans" are against such ideas.

I have been saying all this time the very samething.Their needs to be a separate list.

A list for Brazilian Americans and a list for Portuguese Americans (Luso Americans would mean those from Portugal and not Brazil)

Even in Brazil the term "luso" stands for people of Portuguese origin (of Portugal) even in wikipedia they use this term

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luso-brasileiro http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alguns_Luso-Brasileiros_famosos http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imigra%C3%A7%C3%A3o_portuguesa_no_Brasil

So yes Jack O' that is a good idea

[edit] Luso-American means US citizens from PORTUGAL

Portuguese continent and Azores and Madeira islands. That's it! Same thing with LUSITANO. Just like HISPANIC really means IBERIANS. HISPANOS are IBERIANS who are LUSITANO, CASTELLANO, GALEGO, etc. Hispanic is not a subgroup like Lusitanic. Lusitano is a subgroup of Hispano.

Leonardo Alves, if you are Portuguese descent from Brasil to whatever degree then you can say you are Lusitano. In Brasil you may be Luso-Brasileiro but not all are. They may be Lusophone but not all are necessarily Lusitano. Within the context of Brasil you may be Luso-Brasileiro BUT if your family came from Brasil to the USA you are Brazilian-American NOT Luso-American. It may not be right but the USA recognizes you from your country of birth or your parentage. Maybe Hispano-Luso-Brasileiro-American but I doubt they would include the LUSO part and they would most definitely misinterpret the HISPANO part and besides, it's too wordy. Yes you may be Lusitano, but the USA wouldn't recognize it. But even so that would be YOU. It doesn't apply to all Brasileiros. If it was according to the logic that most have some portuguese blood then many, many people from castillian speaking countries could also claim to be Lusitanos but the USA won't recognize it. Also, Lusitano and Lusophone DO NOT mean the same thing.

This is not USA wiki but the article was written from the USA viewpoint. "Luso-American", the title of the article, implies USA viewpoint because the very term is only used in the USA. Even though you are technically "American" by being from the South American continent it doesn't refer to you. I'm Luso-American and so if I went to Brasil and went as far to become a citizen would I be officially recognized as Luso-Brasileiro? Maybe you are Luso-Brasileiro in Brasil but in the USA you are not Luso-American. I think that since there is not a rule saying that all articles have to be based on USA reality you could maybe add a section describing the viewpoint of the rest of the Americas regarding terms and their application to demonstrate how Brazilians of Portuguese ancestry see themselves as Luso-Americano if it is done appropriately. I am not saying you are not Lusitano but you are not Luso-(United States)-American.

Also, Galegos, etc. are not Lusitanos nor are the Sephardi necessarily unless they are Portuguese Jews. Enough with the tanga.

Lusitano Transmontano 07:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. A quick Google search confirms that the term 'Luso-American' is used by Portuguese-Americans only. I think someone should confirm also whether it is correct to describe Dinesh D'Sousa as Luso-American. He was born in India, in Mumbai, in the sixties! Also, classifying Ming-Na as 'Luso-American' seems questionable. She doesn't identify as such, at least not according to the bio in her official website. FilipeS 23:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I only disagree with the meaning of Hispanic: a word is not frozen in it's original meaning, and for some centuries now that Hispanic is exclusively used for Spain. No portuguese person that I know would define himself as "Hispanic", and would probablty be offended by the idea. As an example, an army made of say Portuguese and English is a luso-english army, and an army made by Spaniards and French is a hispano-french one ("luso-inglês" e "hispano-francês"). This is the usage in the Spanish Wikipedia BTW, when refering to the Peninsular War. Once upon a time, before the 16th century and the formation of Spain, all the kingdoms in the Peninsula were "the spanish people" ("os povos espanhóis"); Spain was also a merely geographic term. But the word changed with the forming of the Kingdom of Spain, and immediatly changed the meaning. Same thing with Hispanic, the original meaning of "Roman province of Hispania, meaning Iberia" has long been lost and is only vaguely used in that sense in US "Hispanic Studies", and even there because Portuguese is generally added latter since the main focus is Spanish history, so it's more of a praticality than a correct attribution. In short, anything related to Portugal shouldn't be grouped as a subsect of Hispanic. Iberian is the only word now that conveys that meaning, hence "Ibero-american Summit" to mean Portugal and Spain plus ex-colonies, since "Hispano-american" would immediatly bring to mind that only spanish-speaking countries were concerned. --213.58.3.120 21:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Hispanic is a whole other can of worms. I suggest we don't go there. FilipeS 21:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, Luso-American referres to Portugal only. Luso is the name of the mythologycal founder of Lusitania, so it referres to Portuguese people, just like Lusitanian or Lusitanic. Lusophone means portuguese speaking, but Luso-American doesn't. But yet again, that's my opinion only.

I have a question: This page is about American citizens of Portuguese-speaking background, aren't they? In the list of "famous Brazilian Americans", a good number of them (Sayão, Bündchen, Fittipaldi, at least) don't hold actual US citizenships, at least that I'm aware of. They're merely Brazilian citizens famous in the US... --Wtrmute (talk) 18:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sean Paul

Sean Paul is listed as "Caribbean." While he is in fact from Jamaica, he is of Sephardic descent and should probably be in that category instead. Misterdoe (talk) 16:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why are the Sephardi listed separately?

And unless it's been removed, there's no record of this having ever been discussed here. SamEV (talk) 03:31, 2 May 2008 (UTC)