Talk:Lupin III/Archive 1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Episode titles

Can someone please create seperate pages for the the three TV series and move the episode titles there instead of just simply deleting them?

Missing Movie?

I've got a DVD of a Lupin III flick called "The Secret of Twilight Gemini" that I didn't see mentioned in any of the text (it does have a blurb at the bottom, and it's own stub). Unfortunately I don't know enough about it to warrant editing the page, but it is the first one I've seen (and I make no claims to having seen them all, or even most of them) that included nudity. Anyone have more info on it? -- Geminidomino 09:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Twilight Gemini is a Lupin III TV special thai aired in 1996.

Lupin III or the 3rd

So is it Lupin the 3rd or Lupin III? Title is inconsistant with text. RickK 23:25, Jul 4, 2004 (UTC)

http://www.tokyopop.com/dbpage.php?propertycode=LUP&categorycode=BMG&page=characterinfo

This says Lupin III. I will move it. WhisperToMe 00:56, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Pioneer's promotional stuff usually has "Lupin the 3rd", which is why I chose that particular name when I created the page. - Furrykef 19:06, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The Japanese original won't be much help in this case, since they actually use a kanji/hiragana combination that means: "the third".

Actually it's just kanji. - furrykef (Talk at me) 21:35, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

How did it inspire Cowboy Bebop? O.o

The similarity of some of the characters. Lupin -> Spike; Jigen -> Jet; Fujiko -> Faye. - furrykef (Talk at me) 07:56, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

The right and official names are:

ルパン (Rupan) 三 (third) 世 (generation)
Lupin the 3rd (as in the official japanese site: http://www.lupin-3rd.net/)
Lupin the third (as in the official Lupin/VAP site: http://www.vap.co.jp/lupin/)

Lupin III is unofficial but OK, because III is the roman/latin number for third
Arsene is wrong, because it refers to the french Arsene Lupin; the japanese Lupin, as in website above, doesn't have the name Arsene or Arsenio.
-- 80.182.78.25 13:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Is there any official source for what his first name really is? It's a Western convention that order to give someone the III or "the third" suffix, his name must be identical in all respects--first, middle, and last--as his ancestors. --Robotech_Master 19:19, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure official sources have used the name Arsene Lupin at one point or another, although I don't have a specific source in mind. In any case it's obvious that "Lupin" is a surname and, being the grandson of Arsene Lupin, he would thus be Arsene Lupin III. That an official website or two may have omitted his first name is irrelevant; it doesn't mean it isn't there. It's probable that they just didn't mention it because he's almost never called "Arsene" anyway. - furrykef (Talk at me) 22:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I think, if Lupin III is the grandson of Arsene Lupin, his complete name and surname (probably) is: Arsene Lupin III. But Monkey Punch never used the name Arsene, but only ルパン三世 in his manga. So I think Lupin III doesn't have a name; Lupin III probably is a pseudonym and the real name and surname are unknown. Here some official site, and no one of this report the name Arsene: http://www.tms-e.com/on_air/lupin/ http://www.futabasha.co.jp/?author=35009 http://www.lupinofficial.com http://www.lupinthe3rd.com http://www.toho-a-park.com/video/new/lupin/d_index.html -- 80.181.80.223 08:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm pretty darn certain he really is Arsene Lupin III. I have Vol. 1-5 of the manga, and I remember there was one featuring Arsene Lupin II and I believe they talked about the original Arsene Lupin (in the context of being Lupin II's father). Granted, I was reading a translation, but the translation is supposed to be reasonably faithful to the original. - furrykef (Talk at me) 22:51, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
His name is Arsene Lupin III. It states this in the manga.
In an episode of the first television series, Episode 19, Ganimard III (The Grandson of Arsene Lupin's pursuer) flies into Japan from France carrying the belongings of Arsene Lupin. He states on the air that he considers them worthless and Lupin III throws a fit and specifically screams about his grandfather's things being referred to as worthless. The episode also contains a scene where we see a brief glimpse of Arsene Lupin (The original) leaping onto a wall, followed by an identical shot of Lupin III. The two appear almost identical save for the fact that Arsene Lupin I wears a top hat, cape, and other assorted things and has a beard. It's pretty clear that he is intended to be the grandson of Arsene Lupin. If need be, I can furnish some pictures of the episode as well. Palehorse864 03:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't have a scan at the moment, but the theatrical program for the Japanese release of "The Golden Legend of Babylon" has a character profile for each of the lead roles. Lupin's profile is headed with the name "Aruseenu Rupan Sansei" in katakana/kanji ("Arsene Lupin III"). -Reed Nelson —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.43.51.147 (talk) 09:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
In "Missed By A Dollar" / "$1 Money Wars" Lupin is called Arsene by Sandie, the Brazilian girl who receives the brooch in the end. No matter how you want to try and argue it, Lupin is clearly ARSENE Lupin III, otherwise one would assume creator and director of that film, Monkey Punch, would have changed that.
This article's name should be reverted back to "Lupin the 3rd" for the reasons already mentioned. - 85.210.11.39 22:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

lupins jacket

the picturs of lupin should have the jacket red. thats the way monkey punch-sensai intended it

I believe the reason it was green in the original series was because red paint was expensive in Japan (at the time) and used sparingly. However, this may be debatable since his jacket was red in both the 1969 pilot film and the Shin Lupin series (1977 - 80).
Maybe they started to use red because Lupin started to become popular by that time, and the pilot might've had a bigger budget. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.206.68.5 (talk) 05:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

nationality

Daisuke Jigen is japanese.--Drachen 21:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide a source? I'm tired of everybody changing around who is what nationality without sources. - furrykef (Talk at me) 01:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


It is so stated in the first TV series. If I find the specific reference I'll return with the info.

I thought Jigen was on the run from Chicago. The name "Daisuke Jigen" isn't a real Japanese name anyway, its supposed to be a cover up. BethEnd 17:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

It's hard to say what Jigen's true nationality is. Of course in 'Lupin III: Episode 0, First Contact' he is working for the mafia.

The only characters confirmed to be truely Japanese are Goemon and Zenigata.


I have been told that there was an episode of either Lupin III Part 3 or Shin Lupin III (Red Jacket) that involved an old World War II veteran living on an island. Lupin wants to know of a secret this man is keeping but he still suspects the war may be going on. Therefore, he will only trust Goemon and Lupin since he says Goemon is obviously Japanese and Lupin is half Japanese. It is generally believed that Jigen is an American, though that is still not definite.

In Lupin III series 1 episode 5, Lupin, while trying to hide his identity from the newly met Goemon, says that he is a talent coordinator and that Jigen is a man from America who wished to test his skills on a samurai. The story is obviously bunk as Lupin is making it up as part of a disguise. However, it does suggest that Jigen should look American, otherwise Lupin would expect the ruse to fall through immediately. (It eventually does fall through, but that is because Goemon knows Lupin by his inability to keep his nose out of other people's affairs, nothing on Jigen's part.)


If he is from Japan how the heck is he related to the real Arsene Lupin?

in the Lupin the 3rd official web site:
  • Lupin: Age obscurity - Nationality unknown
  • Jigen: Age obscurity - Nationality Japan
  • Goemon: Age obscurity - Nationality Japan
  • Fujiko: Age obscurity - Nationality Japan
  • Zenigata: Age obscurity - Nationality Japan —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.182.78.254 (talk) 08:24, 2 February 2007 (UTC).
I seem to recall reading somewhere that he has a French father (Lupin II) and a Japanese mother. Couldn't say where, though, so it's not exactly the sort of thing you can stick in the article itself. However, from backstory brought up in several Lupin III Series 1 episodes, Lupin II apparently spent a lot of time in Japan, so it's not unreasonable that he could have married a Japanese lady. (In Series 1 episode 13, "Beware the Time Machine," Lupin claims to have a Japanese male ancestor who looks just like him and is marrying a French girl with the Lupin surname, but that is solely to trick the time traveller.) --Robotech_Master 03:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Music

Would it be useful to add information about the music in the show? I always thought it played a significant role in setting the tone of each scene. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by OnionRingOfDoom (talk • contribs) .

Parodies section cleanup

I'm proposing that Parodies be renamed for Parodies & References and only has trivia that directly references the anime and manga. Two of the listings are subjective at best; Batman: The Animated Series and part of Cowboy Bebop. --293.xx.xxx.xx 01:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

The part about Cowboy Bebop isn't subjective. The director Shinichiro Watanabe had clearly stated that Lupin III was an influence on the show.
Citations please. --293.xx.xxx.xx 09:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Taken from: http://www.ex.org/5.4/09-feature_watanabe1.html. "For example, the staff asked me "Oh, so Spike is like Lupin." The easiest answer is, of course, "Yes," but that's not entirely true. The moment I say, "No it's original and new," however, they don't know what to do." There are other statements but that was the easiest to find. It's also pretty common knowledge that he is a reputed Lupin fan and the similarities between the characters is quite obvious.
You pretty much shot your own arguement with that statement. Interprited, it can imply that Shinichiro Watanabe denies it's a direct reference to Lupin.--293.xx.xxx.xx 03:20, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
No I didn't unless you interpret his statement to mean something completely different than what he meant. He clearly states that Spike is like Lupin but obviously different in some respects. The point of his statement is that while Spike is influenced by Lupin he is not an exact Lupin clone, as he is different in many ways, which is the point he was trying to drive home Secondly, he has in other statements said that Lupin is an influence on him and like I said he is a reputed fan of the series. If you don't want to believe it that's fine, but your opinion is quite wrong, considering I have actually talked to him in person about this when he appeared in Houston a couple of years back. Send him a letter or email some time and ask him about it.
How about signing your comments, huh? With the two dashes and the four tildes that Wikipedia recommends?
Anyhow, I agree that the quote is enough evidence that, if Spike isn't intended to be a complete Lupin clone, he is at least influenced by him--if "Spike is like Lupin" is not entirely true, that means it is partly true. --Robotech_Master 03:51, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
For my part, I don't feel that the Batman reference is subjective, either. How many great clocktower fights had there been in animation prior to Castle of Cagliostro? And yet, after it, we have both the Batman Animated appearance (also noteworthy because Cagliostro's studio, TMS, did do some Batman work, and this commonly leads fans to mistakenly assume they did that episode too), and we have the similar fight in The Great Mouse Detective, which isn't mentioned in this section yet but is in the Castle of Cagliostro write-up. And the correspondences are even more similar than they seem from the writeup here; look here and here (the latter link including another Cagliostro reference from Mask of the Phantasm which I'm tempted to add). --Robotech_Master 14:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

So whats stopping others from making such assumptions in the future? "Oh, XXXX anime has a character with a Green Jacket, ergo, it's a reference to Lupin!!" The Batman one suffers from only a studio connection, and the fact the scene mimics the scene in question, not directly references it. Cowboy Bebop suffers in one aspect because the character in question doesn't act like Lupin, rather the opposite (Not Spike, let's get that one straight). I can see the Fullmetal Alchemist one and the others, but these two are questionable at best. --293.xx.xxx.xx 03:20, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter the way he acts as I have said Shinichiro Watanabe has stated that Lupin is an influence on him and on that show. Whether you want to believe that or not doesn't really matter, frankly. And what next? Are you going to try to claim that Nabeshin from Excel Saga is also not a Lupin III influenced character? Hahaha. --(that person who doesn't sign his posts)
In animation, a scene drawn to mimic a particular scene arguably is a direct reference. Every frame, every angle is planned. A character wearing a similar jacket is one thing--but if one movie's scene copies a scene out of another shot for shot, with identical framing and character actions, it had to be intentionally planned that way. --Robotech_Master 04:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Your arguement is about as valid as Creationalism. Full of holes, yet staunchly defended as fact. I think putting in the references and putting up citation tags is in order. --293.xx.xxx.xx 21:15, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

In the FLCL reference, one of the episodes has Naota's dad talking about his green jacket, and he mentions Castle of Cagliostro. If I can get the exact episode and refernce should we add it in? Kage-Lupus 09:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

In an episode of Genshiken (i dunno which), there is a sand castle version of the Castle of Cagliostro built. Don't have the time to chase this up, but does anyone know of this reference? [anonymous]

Lupin III mystery

I have heard from one of the Lupin III fanclub in Yahoo that Fujiko is actually Lupin's mother. This could explain why they could never have sex (because of sodomy), but I just want to know if anyone can verify this. --Dooly00000 10:17, 15 June 2006 UTC

You mean incest, not sodomy. This sounds entirely implausible to me, though. If this were the case, Lupin wouldn't be trying to get in her pants in the first place anyway, right? And aren't Lupin and Fujiko supposed to be near the same age, anyway? - furrykef (Talk at me) 12:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Fujiko is NOT Lupin's mother. There is a shortly lived manga Monkey Punch wrote called 'Lupin the Kid'. The main character is a boy thief who is trained by Fujiko. He claims he is the son of her and Lupin. He also appears on occassion in 'Shin Lupin III'.

Lupin and Cowboy Bebop

Since there's some "edit war"-like behaviour on the topic of Lupin's influence on Cowboy Bebop, here are some links that make the comparison:

Please, feel free to peruse and use them as sources.--Nohansen 15:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Is there a reason that Lupin's character page is deleted while everyone else's is intact? These wiki deleting zombies get really old, really fast.

Lupin's character page has been deleted

Just FYI, User:Centrx has deleted Arsène Lupin III citing that it is "Likely copyvio, no reliable sources". You all probably want to go talk to him about that, since, although I have no idea about copyvio, I'm sure there are reliable sources on Lupin and he's certainly notable. Axem Titanium 00:24, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

He has his talk page protected so I can't say anything to him, but that was a good page with good information, and I don't think any of it was copyright violation. I don't know what why he deleted it but I sure would like to find out —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.43.82.69 (talk) 06:24, 15 February 2007 (UTC).
Shouldn't the article be tagged for improvement rather than deleted, especially as it links to a rather large selection of articles? What about a request for undeletion if his talk page is not accessible? 71.76.218.40 03:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I undeleted the page now, and I should have done it sooner. I don't think the deletion was reasonable and I'm going to try to sort the matter out with Centrx. - furrykef (Talk at me) 03:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I believe the matter has been sorted out now and the article is going to stay. Centrx thought that the article was illegally copied from another source, but it turned out that it was simply copied from this article. - furrykef (Talk at me) 23:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to Block 293.xx.xxx.xx From Editing Lupin III

This user does nothing to this article but come in to remove the OBVIOUS references from Bleach and Cowboy Bebop to Lupin III. I don't know if he has some sort of grudge or personal problem with that fact. I mean, how is it "debatable" that the outfit in this image is not EXACTLY the same, piece for piece, with Lupin's 2nd series outfit?

I don't know what issue he takes with those facts, but he keeps coming back and deleting them and has done so on numerous occasions. If it's a possibility, I suggest he be blocked from editing this article.

Well, this is not the sort of behavior that we "block" people for. I sympathize with your cause, but you also need to have a sense of perspective about this. Calling the removal of the image "vandalism" will not get support for your cause. I think what 293.xx.xxx.xx is concerned about is that there's no use in keeping debatable "homages" around when there are plenty more that are more certain. I agree: the list is too long. You shouldn't take it personally if it happens to be your contribution, or something about your favorite anime/manga, that gets the axe. I must say the "Shinji Hirako" image does resemble Lupin, though, and I think the image should stay unless we can find an even more obvious reference. - furrykef (Talk at me) 00:13, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Drastic Changes to the Refrences Section

Before someone does such drastic changes to that section, they need to discuss it here. Those changes are not necessary. That section is very appropriate and the only reason that person removed it is because they have a personal vendetta against the Cowboy Bebop and Bleach references for some reason, which is very childish. They need to come here and prove how the outfit Shinji Hirako wears in the picture is not piece for piece the same as Lupin's 2nd TV series outfit, and how that could not possibly be anything but an undisputable homage. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.43.82.69 (talk) 15:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

I agree Bebop has some similarities to Lupin. I even gave some links that make the comparison in the above "Lupin and Cowboy Bebop" editors could cite as sources. But 293.xx.xxx.xx doesn't have to prove it's not an homage. The editor who writes the comparison must prove it is. By citing a reliable source that makes the comparison, be it a reviewer or the series creator himself.--Nohansen 15:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Many of the homages are visual homages! It is extremely difficult to find direct quotes to support it. We are all logical enough to look at the picture of the villain from Sympathy for the Devil in Cowboy Bebop or Shinji Hirako's outfit in the picture that's in the article and say "well, how many other characters in anime history wear the exact same outfit as Lupin, piece for piece, without specifically being a direct homage?" I mean, it's simple logic. Of all the color schemes the animators could choose from, they picked the one that is piece for piece the same as Lupin's outfit right down to the color of the belt? That is a plain and obvious homage!
Wikipedia:Citing sources. Cite either an artist interview mentioning the homage, a reviewer mentioning it, or it being pointed out in a DVD commentary, and i'll stop editing it out. Also, please see Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, Wikipedia:Featured article criteria, and most important Wikipedia:Manual of Style.--293.xx.xxx.xx 19:57, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
How can you not see that one character wearing an outfit piece for piece exactly the same is not an homage? Do you have something personal against Cowboy Bebop and Bleach making references to Lupin?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.43.82.69 (talk) 01:32, 31 March 2007 (UTC).
Source creditable works that mention it, or it risks being deleted. Which I did delete because it turned into a fancruft nightmare rife with weasel words and cruft.--293.xx.xxx.xx 23:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
These are references IN THE SHOWS, which means people will read the reference, and if they want to check it, they can go and see what the reference is about. I'll tell you what your issue is, though. You think that Bleach and Cowboy Bebop are way, way better than Lupin the 3rd and there is no way on Earth that these two shows would ever stoop as low as referencing Lupin, right? Well, sir, that is not the case. Tell me right now, just sit here and tell me how one character wearing the EXACT outfit, and I mean piece for piece the same, is not an homage? Are people not smart enough to be able to look at the picture and say "hmm...this happens to be an homage because it's the EXACT SAME OUTFIT." You're not going to find an animator or a director saying "oh, yes, I chose that outfit because I wanted to reference Lupin." They expected people to be smart enough to figure it out on their own, especially since Lupin is such a huge icon in Japan.
How do I know this? It's because originally you would ignore every other reference but would delete the Cowboy Bebop and Bleach one specifically, even though those are the most easily verifiable ones. Then when you saw it wasn't working, you said that the whole section is a list and it's supposed to be paragraphs, and so you deleted all the information and replaced it with a useless paragraph that says "this and this show pays homage to Lupin" without even stating how or in what way the reference was made. Why? Because you hardly cared, and even when you did that you did not include Cowboy Bebop or Bleach in the list of shows that referenced Lupin. And now, after I went back and EXPANDED the article to include information about what references were made and in what way, your excuse about this being a list didn't work anymore, so you're claiming this whole "weasel word" thing. I don't see why you're bothering to contribute information to a show you don't even like.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.43.82.69 (talk) 03:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

Cite sources, or it risks being deleted. It wasn't fulfilled. Homages via clothing changes is not creditable unless the creators or the director mentions it in a verifiable interview or article thru a legit third party source. Wikipedia:Citing sources.--293.xx.xxx.xx 04:29, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Listen...you just proved my above point. You will NOT find animators stating that stuff they worked on are homages because THEY EXPECT people to know about it. Lupin is ICONIC in Japan. When animators put something as obvious as dressing a character in clothes that matches Lupin's SIGNATURE outfit PIECE FOR PIECE, COLOR FOR COLOR, from the neck down to the shoes, that is AN HOMAGE that everyone but you accepts. The facts are: you don't like Lupin. You don't like the fact that Shinichiro Watanabe references other anime in his anime (apparently you have problems with homages in Samurai Champloo, as well). Accept the fact that this will be how it is and leave it alone. Oh, and what you claim to be "fancruft"? How is it? The paragraphs say what was referenced, how it was referenced, and where it was referenced, sometimes it INCLUDES THE EPISODE AND VOLUME NUMBER, which when you go back and erase the EXPANDED information, you just take it out completely and don't even bother to add it again, proving that you don't care for article and you just have a grudge against Lupin the 3rd being popular—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.43.82.69 (talk) 05:11, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

Either prove the info, or don't put it in at all. If you can't, then I have every right to delete it. It's that simple. I've given you the appropiate pages to look into. Follow the rules. --293.xx.xxx.xx 11:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Your lack of response to all the other issues I raised above says a lot, but, would you be so kind as to tell me what words in the paragraphs are "fancruft" and "weasel words" so that I may fix them? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.43.82.69 (talk) 15:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC).
Not after your comment on the Anime and Manga talkpage, so consider my bluntness below to be my response.
I've tagged the items with the appropiate tags. Some need exact verification, others require more through verification. The images need sources where it explicitly states the homages are Lupin related. Images alone do not constitute "proof." --293.xx.xxx.xx 00:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Must we?

Must we even say he is the grand son of Arsène? Its horrid to have such a great piece of history linked with this.... Horrid piece of... Cartoon.... Meh. A true disgrace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nokom (talk • contribs) 01:48, 7 April 2007

Wikipedia is a neutral source of information. If it is a critical element to understanding who the main character is (which it is), then it must be reported. Whether or not you like the story (or the series itself) is immaterial; it is our duty to report the story as it is. - furrykef (Talk at me) 02:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


I understand. I don't mean to sound like a butt, I really don't :) I just don't like Lupin III. Hes just not like Arsène. And I feel, he is somewhat embaresing. But if you like it, thats fine ;)

How is he not like Arsène Lupin? He's a gentleman thief and a ladies' man...have you even seen Hayao Miyazaki's Castle of Cagliostro? -_-

He is... Just not. Hes certainly no gentleman like Lupin. Hes not even from France.

You really should be signing your comments, you know. Use two hyphens followed by four tildes at the end of your statement.
And this really isn't the place to argue over whether Lupin III is or isn't like Arsène Lupin, so I won't go into it in depth (though I'll happily meet you in some other forum for a lengthy debate). But suffice it to say that the character has not always been as he is in the recent shows. In the 1971-2 TV series, he bore a much closer resemblance to the original Arsène. Not identical by any means, but then, people are a product of their times. --Robotech_Master 01:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

That's not it for Lupin references in that show, however!

I was asked to make some comments on the current reversions. The above line looks very "fancrufty" and is not at all encyclopedic. It needs re-writing something like "Other references to Lupin include, ..." CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 08:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)