Talk:Luis Miguel

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Luis Miguel Gallego Basteri → Luis Miguel (singer) — Luis Miguel the singer may qualify the primary usage of Luis Miguel page, but i think Luis Miguel should just like to disambiguation page Matthew_hk tc 02:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this is not a vote; comments must include reasons to carry weight.

• Oppose — No other notable person goes by "Luis Miguel" other than the singer, therefore he should have the Luis Miguel article.
  • The singer is a Grammy Award winner and Hollywood Walk of Fame honoree
  • Even if the singer was not notable for his profession, he is because of his romances with very public figures such as Mariah Carey and Daisy Fuentes.
  • A Luis Miguel disambiguation may be created as "trivia" for all those Luis Miguels included in the page now that do not even go by "Luis Miguel" themselves (Luismi, Miguel Monteiro, etc.). Since they do not go by Luis Miguel or Luis Miguel X, it is highly unlikely that someone would enter "Luis Miguel" just because that happens to be part of their birth name.
  • The disambiguation page should also include the handful of others that go by Luis Miguel X (Luis Miguel Sánchez Cerro, Luis Miguel Martín). None of which, again, goes by Luis Miguel but use their full name. --FateClub 19:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Note that what FC is opposing is Luis Miguel (singer), and they support Luis Miguel as title.
    --Jerzy•t 01:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
    

• Support move to "Luis Miguel" — This world-famous Latin singer, is simply known as "Luis Miguel". And there are no other significant "Luis Miguel's" out there.--Endroit 09:27, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support move to "Luis Miguel" I agree with FateClub and Endroit. Have a dablink to Luis Miguel (disambiguation). Joeldl 00:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support move (back) to "Luis Miguel" (or to Luís Míguel, depending on which research supports; in either case, one of those two should be a Rdr to the other.) GTests (cited in detail below) show Web presence of the singer, under that name, about 200 times that under the full name "Luis Miguel Gallego Basteri". (While the Dab intimates that Miguel Monteiro is known as "Luis Miguel", his own bio article asserts that he goes by simply "Miguel", and none of the other blue-lk'd articles on the Dab page mention any use of a given name w/o surname in their lead 'graphs. The recent new title Luis Miguel (singer) could in theory be justified, but not simply by the possibility of someone else well known by that double given name. If such a figure emerges later, the titles can be rearranged, but until then, there is no justification for differing more than as to diacritical marks from "Luis Miguel".) Further supportive details in a following section.
  --Jerzy•t 01:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
  

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

A survey would be a wildly inappropriate obstacle to the speedy resolution of this matter, so i have suppressed the tag into text, and struck thru the infrastructure for the survey. See the following section Restoration of status quo. [pending as you read this]
--Jerzy•t 03:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)"Pending..." notice struck thru, now that what i promised is done.--Jerzy•t 06:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

_ _ A helpful colleague has

1. renamed "#Restoration of status quo" (i correct here my bad syntax from above) to "#Statement by Jerzy",
2. implemented what i was in practice unequipped for, in terms of mastery of MediaWiki template and box markup: recasting the terms of this process from

   a strawman that no one favors into

   more open-ended consideration of the appropriate title, and

3. argued forcefully and persuasively (below and on their talk pg) for my participation in this process.

_ _ I have already roughed out below much of my position, which under current conditions amounts to restoration of the status quo ante, namely Luis Miguel. When reasons, at least as cogent and relevant as User:FateClub's & mine, below, have been put forward by others, i will argue, more tersely & specifically, within this section.
--Jerzy•t 17:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by Jerzy

1. The article Luis Miguel was created by an IP 3 years and 5 months ago (to the day!) with the content

   He is considered to be the best Latin singer of the world Also know as “El Sol De Mexico”.

   (I could be wrong, but it think the Spanish phrase means "The Sun of Mexico".) Within 24 hours, Viajero (talk · contribs) formatted it, including a standard lead sent that suggests the title was "Luis Miguel"; nothing in the history suggests a renaming until that by Matthew hk (talk · contribs) in the last 24 hours. It's not easy to trace old links to a page, but as an example, at the creation of Grammy Award for Best Latin Pop Album, when LM was 6 months old, it lk'd him as "Luis Miguel" without piping, and did so until 203.185.57.117 (talk · contribs) byp'd the new move-tool Rdr, 69 minutes after the move i cite below.

2. At 15:32, M-hk renamed the article, and converted the resulting Rdr to a supposed {{hndis}} Dab page. (He seems to have followed up with prompt Dab-bypasses of about 10% of the references to LM, and perhaps most of the rest later.)
3. At 20:39, i objected as follows:

   == The singer Luis Miguel ==

   Just two Google tests,

   356 for "Luis Miguel Gallego " OR "Luis Miguel Gallegos "

   and

   773 of about 106,000 for "Luis Miguel " singer OR musican

   suffice to convince me that your move of Luis Miguel to Luis Miguel Gallego Basteri utterly ignored WP:COMMONNAME. I have not yet researched whether the correct title is

   • Luis Miguel, with a ToP Dab lk'g to Luis Miguel (disambiguation), or
   • something like Luis Miguel (singer),

   but if you don't fix it quickly, i will do so without further communicating with you.
   --Jerzy•t 20:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
   

4. At 23:35, a user objected, AFAIK independently of my note, saying

   == Luis Miguel Gallego Basteri ==

   I would consider your move from Luis Miguel to Luis Miguel Gallego Basteri as a highly controversial renaming of an article. Please do not take offense, but I am positive that you are not familiar with this topic, or Spanish culture in general. Here are my thoughts on this:

   • Luis Miguel is a singer of worldwide fame and much more notable than the other four Luis Miguels that you included in that disambiguation list.
   • Luis Miguel is much more of a public figure than any other Luis Miguel, since he is a Grammy winner and is often romantically associated with big stars, such as Mariah Carey, Daisy Fuentes, etc.
   • Please also note that "Luis Miguel" is his professional name, and that is why he is notable, he is not a scientist or politician or any other profession where a full name is used.
   • Also only one of the other Luis Miguels has an article, therefore people looking for "Luis Miguel" will be taken to that disambig page while almost all of them will be looking for the singer and not anybody else.
   • In addition, none of the other Luis Miguels go by "Luis Miguel" only the singer.

   I will strongly suggest you moved the page back to Luis Miguel and create another Luis Miguel (disambiguation) page.

   Respectully, --FateClub 23:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

5. As to response to those,

   _ M-hk has made no response on his or my talk page or via EMail.

   _ AGF requires me to say that M-hk has made no response here that refers to my msg: my treating the {{move|Luis Miguel}} tag on this page as referring to my msg would be accusing him of a self-serving lie about either his competence in English, or about what i said.

   _ M-hk has made no response on FC's talk page.

6. On this page, M-hk took a position on a move no one (else?) has argued for, tho i'm not sure what position that is. He had included (what i presume to be) boiler plate that

this is not a vote; comments must include reasons to carry weight

but neither endorsed nor countered the reasons FC and i offered against his original approach, and offered for his own new or old one this reason:

i think Luis Miguel should ...

That unexplained personal preference is a reason, but it's a bad reason, no matter what (concerning WP) it's his reason for.

--Jerzy•t 06:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why i'm restoring the status quo

_ _ If the idea M-hk had is a good one, it will be a good idea next week or next month when there's been a chance to given it thorough consideration, but putting it off that long offers no significant harm, compared to the years that WP has limped along with Luis Miguel being an article on the singer. On the other hand, it will be surprising if we've run with a bad idea for three and a half years without anyone else suggesting that. And two people quickly came up with different reasons (or different versions of similar reasons) why the old way was a good one, once the new one surfaced. The burden of proof lies with M-hk, and his suggestion of in effect waiting around while he solicits someone else to defend it for him is offensive.
_ _ In fact, i'm confident that his idea is a bad one. There is not even a consensus, i think, that pages concerned with people who share given names are encyclopedic. IMO they have been tolerated for two reasons:

1. PAPER, and
2. their advocates have generally been satisfied to have such pages' visibility subordinated to that of more widely endorsed pages, via dab'g suffixes on their titles.

I've already cited COMMONNAME, and i remain open to someone giving evidence that there is another Luis Miguel who can muster more than 100K G-Hits, or something close with more than 77% uniqueness (in the first 1K). In the meantime, we are going back to having an article with his common name. I will add a ToP Dab to the low relevance page that M-hk has created, bcz it's hard to show how close to worthless it is, and i've got more important work to do than to try to show it.
--Jerzy•t 06:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I am glad that you have voiced an opinion. However, I must stress that it is not your place to withdraw another user's move request. By all means state the reasons why such a request may be flawed, but you should under no circumstances remove the request. If your arguments are strong, then the page will not be moved, but we must allow the discussion to take place, without involved parties deciding whether or not the discussion should take place. You may suggest in the move discussion that the article be moved to Luis Miguel, for the reasons you stated above, and if a consensus forms that that is the best solution, then it will be done. Being open and transparent and involving many editors lends more weight to a decision than the opinion of a single editor. Please do not strike the move out again; contact me if you have any further comments about this. I have changed the boilerplate to allow a wider choice of names to be considered; I hope the original proponent will not be too put out by this. --Stemonitis 07:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] magiciandude's statement

We COULD just put on the Luis Miguel article (This article is about the Mexican singer, for other uses, see Luis Miguel (disamgution [not sure how it's spelt]). I'm pretty sure when someone types Luis Miguel, they are more than likely looking for the Mexican singer, not the others. magiciandude 20:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.