Talk:Luis Carrero Blanco

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Contents 1 Conspiracy theories 2 Statement by ETA 3 Disputed paragraph 4 Statement by ETA 5 Accents in titles 6 Opus Dei is non-political

[edit] Conspiracy theories

Should there be a section on the conspiracy theories behind the accomplice? Although most people say that ETA’s role is undeniable, did the US have a role in the assassination?

What is the significance of Franco’s “no hay mal que por bien no venga” comment in a speech four days later after the assassination? My contemporary history Complutense professor doesn’t know. Does anyone? --Patpecz 23:22, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by ETA

[edit] Disputed paragraph

Obviously, this page is translated from Spanish. Few things cause people's blood to boil like ETA or Franco, but frankly, I find this section be a bit biased. Talking about Spanish jokes regarding any Spaniard's assasination is of questionable taste and probably irrelevant to the facts at hand, that is my first comment.

I haven't read the English page for ETA, so am not aware of where the terminology regarding "etarras" has settled in English, however, linking the assasination of Luís Carrero Blanco and the subsequent transition from the Falangist dictatorship of Franco to the restauration of the monarchy and later institution of Spain's 1978 constitution is pure conjecture.

The last year's of Franco's regime involved issues more complex than those presented here, and I believe the bias of author is showing in this regard.

I have no love for Franco nor ETA, but saying that transition from the Falangist dictatorship of Franco to the restauration of the monarchy and later institution of Spain's 1978 constitution is pure conjecture These paragraphs need re-assessment.

-sirimiri 06:02, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Huh? Jokes? Anyway, just to add that I don't see any bias in here. I am studying Spanish History right now and that is just about what my textbook says. Carrero Blanco was one of the most prominent figures in Spain at the time, widely applauded as Franco's successor and in line with Franco's conservative policies. His death did make a difference towards the democratic transition, as Franco's later "successors" lacked his standing.

You don't see the bias? What about mass executions, when it was exactly five people executed, and not all of them Basques (large amounts!). I just corrected this point.--JoseFMartindelPozo 20:29, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

On which period do you count? Repression against Basque separatism lasted about the whole duration of the regime... Surely the Franquist regime executed more than five people... -- JidGom 14:51, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I have been trying to find exact figures, but found none. Anyway, executions (apart from the first few years after the Civil War) were exceptional. I daresay no more frequent than in contemporary USA. --JoseFMartindelPozo 21:51, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Seriosly, the part with the jokes about Carrero Blanco being the first spaniard on the moon should really be edited away, regardless of what it says in your history book. Such unneccessary and tasteless information has no place in Wikipedia. Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, and thus should it not take part of the subjects of the articles. nor should Wikipedia take part indirectly, i.e. adding unneccesary information in the article, information that obviously is written to show the opinions of the author of the text.

What would be interesting to know, though, is what happened to the assasins, those who arranged the bombing. I have a slight memory that I read somwhere that they were caught and that they were to be garroted, but that Franco eventually - propably after reactions from the outside world - changed his mind and had the convicted persons executed by a firing squad instead.

The Spanish verision of this page says that the detonation charge was loaded with 100 kilograms of explosives, not a ton (=1000 Kilograms). Which one is correct?

-SzymonSpengler October 3, 2005, 01:31 (CET)

According to the movie Ogro (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0079655/) at least the chief of the commando (Izzara) was alive 10 year after. I don't think any of them got caught... I tried unsuccessfuly to source the book by Julen Agirre... Sourcing this book would clear the explosive question too. JidGom 03:21, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

---

Made some changes to the text to make it more fluid, but the content is essentially the same. There's a lot of discussion as to whether ETA are terrorists or "armed separatists" but the previous text said "independist" which doesn't seem like common usage in English to me...perhaps a direct translation of "independista"? At any rate, I modified it to simply say "members" of ETA, since that seems NPOV and factual, without any added controversy.

Regarding the "moon" phrase, I still posit that it is irrelevant to the facts and should be stricken.

The current phrasing "his death forced the transition toward a democratic government in Spain" is an oversimplification and should be modified, in my opinion. To equate the assasination of one man (albeit influential) with modern, constitutional Spain popping out on the the other side of the rabbit hole is over-reaching.

Raymond Carr's "Spain 1808-1975" is a good reference book for details regarding the Franco era...having read the section about Blanco's assasination, I can find no mention of his death being "widely applauded by the liberal sector", much less any definition of who or what groups might have composed this "liberal sector". So we can better understand each other's positions, what is your source and what does it have to say?

I've said these things because I believe a topic like this, which is tangential to hot button issues like Franco/ETA, etc. should try to leave the debate on those pages and be as NPOV and factual as possible.

-sirimiri 07:19, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I changed the wording making his death "instrumental" in the democratic transition and not "having forced it". Does it suits everyone? JidGom 16:36, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

Weighing in on the importance of Blanco death to the transition, I watched a documentary produced by the Spanish tv station RTV, part of Memoria de Espana. The documentary said the assassination killed the only person capable of continuing a Francoist regime. Considering the documentary's source, I think it mostly presents the accepted history, so Blanco's death seems to be considered very important to the transition.--Bkwillwm 8 July 2005 21:31 (UTC)

--- Anonymous Spanish user,

The text says Carrero was a monarchist... If that's true he could have acted as Suarez. Suarez was the first Spanish president after Franco. He "killed" Franco political structure from inside. I guess his intentions weren't clear and I thinks it's clear he couldn't talk about democracy being at a dictatorship and being a so close person to Franco. He would have been removed.

I think the earlier edit talking about his death being "instrumental" (JidGom 16:36 2005 Jun 23) helps move it towards NPOV, thanks for the contrib. I'm still not so sure about the "widely applauded by the liberal sector", perhaps we could put something more like "applauded by some liberal opponents of the Falangist regime"? That would be enough to remove the NPOV tag, in my opinion. Comments?

-Sirimiri 06:47, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that we could call the late Franco regime "Falangist" personally, feel free to tone down the sentence a bit and remove the tag. JidGom 17:19, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I've put in some less polarizing language and removed the tag. If only all Wiki-wording tussels were this civil :) Oh, also re-worked that last para a little bit, as there was some word repetition which was a bit laborious to read.

Sirimiri 07:58, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by ETA

I believe that the "manifesto" section added by Kaliz is blurring the line betwine this article and the one for Operación Ogro. In that, LCB was a member of government, etc. etc., later assassinated by ETA, but the particulars of that last action are best spelled out on the Ogro page, not on Blanco's. It's quite a lot of text and my opinion is it should show up once, on the Ogro page. Opinions? --Sirimiri 17:29, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

...perhaps it should be suppressed altogether, is that it? The assassination is the standard marker that journalists and historians use to designate the beginning of the transition from the Falangist dictatorship of Franco to the restauration of the parliamentary monarchy and Spain's 1978 constitution: it would not be dismissed as "pure conjecture" by any neutral witness. I have added a reference to the US Library of Congress on this point, though I have not incorporated into the article this LoC assessment:

"Carrero Blanco had embodied hard-line Francoism, and he was seen as the one who would carry on the Caudillo's policies. His assassination precipitated the regime's most serious governmental crisis and interrupted the continuity that Franco had planned."

To say that the assassination was applauded by liberals is actually incorrect—because of the restrictions on the Spanish press in 1973, not because the liberals did not breathe a sigh of relief. If "Falangist" may not be applied to Generalisimo Franco because it is "polarizing", what kind of a rewriting of Spanish history is being insisted upon here, by a single individual? --Wetman 03:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Accents in titles

[copied]
Hallo! I see you moved Luis Carrero Blanco to Luís Carrero Blanco. As the author of the German version I found out by interwikis. AFAIK in Spanish Luis is written without accent as the accent lies on the "u", not no the i. Chigliak 20:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

In this case, I was just going by the orthography within the article. If the article was wrong, then it should be moved back and the article text should be changed accordingly. - Jmabel | Talk 23:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[end copied]

Just did that. Chigliak 13:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opus Dei is non-political

I will remove Opus Dei in this phrase: Carrero Blanco and Opus Dei, without explicitly supporting political liberalization, aspired to economic integration with European markets.

Opus Dei encourages political pluralism. British historians Paul Preston and Brian Crozier state that the Opus Dei members who were Franco's ministers were appointed for their talent and not for their Opus Dei membership.^[1][2] Also, there were notable members of Opus Dei who were vocal critics of the Franco Regime such as Rafael Calvo Serer and Antonio Fontan, who was the first Senate President of Spain's democracy. The German historian and Opus Dei member Peter Berglar calls any connection made between Opus Dei and Franco's regime a "gross slander."^[3]