Talk:Lufthansa Flight 181

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Contents 1 Possible factual inaccuracy relating to the deployment of flashbangs? 2 German press title for the incident 3 Aircraft Regrestration 4 inappropriate category 5 WikiProject class rating

[edit] Possible factual inaccuracy relating to the deployment of flashbangs?

The article indicates that the GSG-9 commandos threw the new flashbang stun grenades into the plane during the storming. According to the book "Assault on LH 181" (Bary Davies, one of the SAS members who were assisting the GSG 9 unit, who I think got the DSM), the SAS provided the flashbangs but that they were never thrown into the plane, instead being thrown over the wings to generate the flash and bang (and accompanying distraction) outside of the plane. The GSG-9 commandos had never had an opportunity to train with these new munitions before this event and there were fears about their own ability to perform if they were detonated inside the plane during the storming. As it was, the flashbangs appear to have served as sufficient distraction.

"Assault on LH 181", Barry Davies, ISBN: 1898125724 (can't give you a page citation until I find the book). If there is a primary source that contradicts this, I'd be interested to know if it was someone who was in a more authoritative position than Mr. Davies. 64.26.142.194 21:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC) by TomB

This would be consistent with the German version, where is says that the SAS stun grenades were used outside the plane directly before the storming. Additionally, the grenades were used by SAS personal and only Germans boarded the plane.--129.241.49.86 19:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German press title for the incident

Yooden reverted back to his own translation of the phrase "Landshut hijacking" into German without discussing, ignoring several of my attempts to discuss with him (supposedly male). I argued namely that "Entführung der Landshut" though grammatically correct is very long. It was used of course to explain the events in articles, but as a title generally "Landshut Entführung" was used as a shorthand. If there are any other opinions on the topic please voice them. Thank you. Ben ^T/_C 21:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

(Supposedly male? WTF?) First of all, there are no "several attempts to discuss", there was one.

About the translation itself: I can't remember that I ever heard 'Landshut Entführung'. I'm also not suprised since this expression is (I think) grammatically wrong, at least bad style. So I checked Google, which has more hit on "Entführung der Landshut". So there. --Yooden

How can I know your gender? I can just suppose for ease of expression.

There were several explanations given in the edit summaries (compare yours), at your talk page, and on the talk page here, mostly ignored by you. I advise you against arguing with German native speakers about German grammar. You reverted me repeatedly without addressing my arguments (read your talk page, e.g.). The difference in google hits is hardly statistically relevant, even less so, if you take into account [copying from my comment above] that "Entführung der Landshut" though grammatically correct is very long. It was used of course to explain the events in articles, but as a title generally "Landshut Entführung" was used as a shorthand

First I reverted you back and then, after considering my experience with you, decided to move the article to a new title (avoiding any necessity for a German press title). Please stop edit warring in the future. Except for being bad style, it could be considered vandalism. Please see Wikipedia:Civility. Ben ^T/_C 20:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I can see no explanations in the edit summaries. Is this a simple misunderstanding? Which edit summaries are you talking about?

Second, I reacted promptly to each of your attempts to talk about this. Against the facts, you deny this for the second time. Why?

Third, I advise you against arguing with German native speakers about German grammar. The reason must be that we Germans are always right if it comes to our grammar. (For the ironically-challanged: This is not really what I think.) Oh, and we never argued about it, I stated that it would be wrong and you did not object.

Fourth, if my answer seemed rude to you then because it probably was. I don't always see when a short answer is sufficient and when a longer one is necessary. Sorry. I did however address your arguments (read my talk page).

I'm not sure if 50% difference are statistically relevant, but the longer expression should, if anything, be hampered by its length; if Bild wants to save some mm, they would use the wrong, shorter expression.

I don't see why the new title changes anything, but then I don't see why the German expression is required at all. While 'Entführung der Landshut' is correct in German, 'Landshut Hijacking' would be right expression in English.

Please stop edit warring in the future. Except for being bad style, it could be considered vandalism. Please see Wikipedia:Civility. (And in case it's still not clear, don't assume you have the moral high ground in this one.) --Yooden

I didn't expect we would agree on anything. As this conversation is over, I see no need in proving anything to you what you can simply find by clicking on the history button, nor do I see the need in asking you to explain your third point, nor in minding your condescending attitude, nor in correcting your calculations. Ben ^T/_C 23:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

If you say it it's true, if I say it it's condescending. Figures. --Yooden

Sorry, I wasn't fair and I was condescending. I just wanted to change my comment but you came first.

Let's agree that both variants were in use. I don't know how you calculated your fifty percent but you have to admit that I also have my point. I was not reading newspaper yet at that time (see my user name) but I remember always hearing the short title when there was some documentary. Let me apologize also. I should have stopped earlier, just waited, and should have assumed good faith. I admit I got angry after you reverted me the second time and I read your comment. As for the edit summaries: my mistake. I was over-reacting and emotional. Please forget it. Ben ^T/_C 00:05, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, let's forget it and let's both take more time next time. --Yooden

[edit] Aircraft Regrestration

The Article lists D-ABCE as the regrestration of the aircraft in question. In November of 2003, I was an aircraft loader in Louisville, KY working for an air charter company that worked for Ford. We had a Ameristar charter 737, N737TW, that had a load of parts for us. When I arrived in the cabin to begin offloading, I noticed the signage was in German and inquired with the flight crew why this was so. They advised me that this was the aircraft that had been hijacked in 1977. On an external inspection of the aircraft during a break in offloading, I noted many patch holes which would be consistent with the damage received by the aircraft when stormed by GSG-9.

A subsequent search of Airliners.net resulted in the determination that D-ABGE was the aircraft in the incident. If ABGE is the Landshut from the 1977 incident, a search of Airliners.net resulted in the following history of the aircraft:

Purchased from Boeing and registered as D-ABGE, which was a QC aircraft. Flown as such untill the incident in 1977. After the incident was repaired and placed back into service. Served with Lufthansa untill sold to German Cargo in the early 1990's. Reverted back to Lufthansa when German Cargo was purchaced by Lufthansa Cargo. Aircraft sold to Air Atlanta Icelandic in the late 1990's and registered as TB-AFX. After this, sold to Ameristar as N737TW.

After a further search of airliners.net, the name "Landshut" appears on not only D-ABCE (Airlines.net photo ID: 0374190 and 0495440), but on D-ABHM (airliners.net photo ID 0528336) as well.

Additional References:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/policy/dod/part6_ct_analysis_course.htm

Spacestevie 21:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] inappropriate category

I am removing the Category:Palestinian terrorist incidents in Europe category as the article does not mention Palestine or Palestinians at all. --Abnn 04:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

it mentions the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). Misheu 05:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, you are right, it was pretty hidden as it was using an acronym and it wasn't mentioned in the lead (which I will fix), I was using FireFox's build in text search for "Pal", which usually catches everything. I'll post another message regarding the category as a whole, because I think it is problematic IMHO and I would like to rename it or substitute it. --Abnn 00:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 03:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)