User:Ludwigs2/Sandbox

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of multiple WikiProjects. Click [show] for further details

WikiProject Buddhism (Rated B-Class) This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Buddhism, an attempt to promote better coordination, content distribution, and cross-referencing between pages dealing with Buddhism. Please participate by editing the article Ludwigs2/Sandbox, or visit the project page for more details on the projects. Guidelines: Chinese Manual of Style - Naming conventions Indic Manual of Style - Naming conventions Japanese Manual of Style Korean Manual of Style - Naming conventions Tibetan Proposed naming conventions B This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale. Top This article has been rated as top-importance on the importance scale. Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need. WikiProject Atheism     (Rated B-Class) Ludwigs2/Sandbox is part of WikiProject Atheism, which aims to organize, expand, clean up, and guide atheism related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page for more details. B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) For more information and how you can help click Show → If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page for more details. Quick help: See changes to: Main talk page Article layout Links to Atheism information and Wikipedia:Research resources Writing about religion and Article development Citing sources, Verifing Sources and Original research Assume good faith and be civil Core articles Atheism article New atheism articles To Do List: edit - history - watch - purge Join WikiProject atheism and be bold Show off a userbox with {{userWPA}} or {{userWPA2}} and attract potential members Help with articles. See this month's adopt an article. Help out with the To-do lists Be consistent Use a "standard" layout for atheism related articles (see: atheism layout style, The perfect article, and Featured articles) Add Atheism navigation template on the bottom of all atheism articles; (use {{Atheism}} or see navigation template) Add Atheism info box to all atheism related talk pages (use {{Wpa}} or see info box) Add {{Category:atheism}} to the bottom of all atheism related articles, so it shows up on the list of atheism articles Maintenance / Etc Find/cite sources for all positions of an article (see citing sources, and atheism references). Try to expand stubs, however, some "new" articles may be neologisms, as this is common with positions on theories on life and may be suitable for deletion (see deletion process) Watch the list of atheism related articles and add to accordingly (see atheism articles) And always write for an encyclopedia. Article to improve for the month of November Agnosticism Create Notable atheist articles Shorten / merge into others false choice into false dilemma - discuss whether you are for or against this merge here Expand an atheism stub Your immediate attention false choice into false dilemma - discuss whether you are for or against this merge here Clarify references in Atheism, using footnotes.   Religion Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

	User:Ludwigs2/Sandbox is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 6, 2004.
User milestones Date Process Result March 24, 2004 Featured article candidate Promoted April 11, 2006 Featured article review Demoted July 24, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed Current Status: Former featured article

	This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.
	This article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia.
Additional information: B This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale. Feel free to make short comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. ??? This article has not yet received an importance rating on the assessment scale. This article is a vital article. This article is one of the supplemental core articles, which every encyclopedia should have.

	This article is being improved by the Cleanup Taskforce to conform with a higher standard of article quality. It is likely to change frequently until completed. Please see its Cleanup Taskforce page for more details.
Cleanup Taskforce page → Edit | Purge Buddhism needs first of all putting in some sort of coherent arrangement. There's plenty more to be doneafter that, which you're welcome to stay & help with if you like, but that's the priority. Added to User:J M Rice/Desk. Peter jackson (talk) 12:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC) Although buddha did need some followers.

To-do:	edit · history · watch · refresh
Here are some tasks you can do:

[edit] Lead

Revise/refine lead in accordance with WP:LEAD to make it comprehensive, neutral and readable.

• at this point we have decided to leave the lead section as is. we need to return later to incorporate a section about buddhist beliefs, but have agreed that the task will be easier after we have developed the page body more.

[edit] Central concepts

Evaluate the possible use of a section that summarizes important concepts common to all streams of Buddhism.

[edit] highlights of old discussions

let me suggest, in the light of the family resemblance concept, that we approach it somewhat on the following lines. We can start with the conceptual, historical & demographic intro as we've been working on. Then we make roughly the following points:

1. Nearly all Buddhists practise devotion to 1 or more Buddhas, & often other beings as well. The most popular are the historical Buddha, & the celestial Buddha Amitabha.
2. Most/nearly all believe in rebirth (strictly, reconception) ...
3. This is regarded as usually being in accordance with karma (which also influences experiences during life) ... However, many/the majority believe that those who are sufficiently advanced spiritually can determine their own & others' rebirths. In particular, many believe Amitabha will ensure his devotees are reborn in his Pure Land.
4. Buddhists believe in the importance of generosity, particularly to support monks.
5. Most Buddhists accept, at least as an ideal, a morality based on the 5 Precepts: refraining from killing living beings, stealing, sexual immorality, lying & intoxicants.
6. Most Buddhists are led by an order of monks, & often nuns (tho' the latter, where they exist, are subordinate.
7. Buddhists believe in the necessity of meditation at some stage of the path, tho' most do not regard themselves as having reached that stage yet.
8. Nearly all recognize scriptures, tho' they disagree on which are authentic & important. Reading, study, memorization, recitation & devotion are widespread practices.
9. Some Buddhists study various doctrinal systems to provide a framework for the development of insight in meditation. Others regard conceptual thought as an obstacle to insight into reality.
10. Buddhists recognize 1 or more concepts of liberation, ususally liberation from rebirth. Some/many talk of renouncing liberation to help others spiritually.
11. All recognize the ideal of dedication to helping others spiritually, & the majority believe everyone should follow this.
12. Nearly all participate in rituals, & some regard this as very important.
13. Some believe in the practice of sexual yoga, but most disapprove.

The order here is roughly progressive. Peter jackson (talk) 10:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Now let me elaborate the situation as regards scriptures.

• historians 1st
  • a very few believe most of the contents of the agamas, corresponding to about 1/4 of the Pali Canon, go back to the Buddha
  • some believe the Buddha's original teachings entirely lost
  • some have produced a wide variety of intermediate theories
  • increasing numbers are agnostic
  • nobody believes the Mahayana sutras go back to the Buddha
• Theravada fundamentalists believe most of the Pali Canon goes back to the Buddha
• Mahayana fundamentalists believe:
  • most of the Vinaya, Agamas & Mahayana sutras go back to the Buddha
  • the agamas give an elementary teaching suitable, in theory, for some people who aren't ready for Mahayana
  • it is better to follow Mahayana from the start
• In practice the agamas play no role in Chinese & Japanese Buddhism, & were never even translated into Tibetan
• Vinaya is another matter. In theory, all Buddhist monks follow similar vinaya, tho' it must be remembered that the Japanese clergy aren't monks in this sense, so it doesn't apply to them.
• non-fundamentalist Buddhists believe whatever someone has told them historians believe

Peter jackson (talk) 15:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

For one thing, it's obvious that when "Buddhism" existed in Ashokan times it was just Buddhism. (This was before there was "Theravada" or "Mahayana" or "Vajrayana," although I am aware there were already various Buddhist "schools" or Nikayas, during Ashoka's times. But from what I know they were all the old schools from which Theravada is a descendent.) I'm not a historian, but doesn't one of the Ashokan pillars record Ashoka as paying homage to the Triple Gem: Buddha-Dharma-Sangha? Today, if you were to ask any number of practicing "Buddhists" as diverse as a Theravadin in Sri Lanka to a Pure Land follower in South Korea, what it means to pay homage to Buddha-Dhamma-Sangha, I'm sure they'll have a good idea what you're talking about. Indeed, if you read any of the Pali suttas where the Buddha or one of his disciples is teaching a lay person, most of the suttas end with said lay person paying homage to the Buddha-Dhamma-Sangha. So my point is that although the various "Buddhist" sects are quite different from one another, they're not at all historically or doctrinally independent of one another, in the same way that two completely different Indian linguistic groups are independent in the sense that they're mutually unintelligible. Therefore, the various Buddhist sects are still "speaking the same language" in that they all purport to be the authentic route to the nirvana of which the Buddha spoke. I'm not really sure about how else to demonstrate Buddhism as a single religion without merely restating the obvious.

In regards to karma & rebirth, I don't think that these teachings are ink-blot tests where one person may interpret it one way and another may do so another way. I agree that some generalizaton is desirable, but they should not be misleading. In the Pali Canon, the Buddha's teachings on karma & rebirth are quite specific, especially when the Buddha contrasted his teachings on karma with the Jains. See: Devadaha Sutta from the Majjhima Nikaya (Pali Text Society citation: PTS: M ii 214). I believe a Pali scholar could help us to define Buddhist teachings on this topic...of course, I imagine that most Pali scholars would be Buddhist, since they've chosen to devote so much of their time to these texts.

Coolbo (talk) 06:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] new discussions

[edit] Structure

Develop an effective and comprehensive structure for the article that provides readers with a sense of the sweep of Buddhist philosophy and practice. Note that to reduce overall article length, some sections could use summary style, with links to appropriate sub-articles

[edit] highlights of old discussions

I suggest that "Thematic" be the first order followed by "Historical." (That is, organize by themes and then within themes order historically, e.g., "Practices" followed by "first this," "then this," etc.) How does that sound? Windy Wanderer (talk) 13:04, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Now to your suggestion. I hadn't thought of combining 2 arrangements like that. If it's done that way we'll need an introductory outline of history to give context. It's an interesting idea. East Asian Buddhism, which now turns out not to be properly sourced (like much of the article). Peter jackson (talk) 17:39, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The historical arrangement is fairly consistently as follows:

1. India
   1. Early ("Hinayana"; derogatory name)
   2. Middle (Mahayana)
   3. Late (Vajrayana/tantra/esoteric)
2. Theravada: close to early Indian Buddhism
3. East Asian Buddhism: derived from middle-period Indian Buddhism, but adapted very substantially to Chinese civilization
4. Tibetan: close to late Indian Buddhism
5. Modern/Western

(talk) 10:04, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm suggesting historical as the main structure, and then within that go by themes. I don't know the body of literature well so don't know much more to suggest. Here are some layperson ideas but I'm not an expert:

1. Origins (where/who/when)
2. Beliefs/Practices (what/how)
3. Contribution to Buddhism today/Current groups (where groups are? who practices? current activities?)
4. Relation to other Buddhist traditions (more conservative? literal? austere?)

Windy Wanderer (talk) 14:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Let me try to rough out how your ( Windy Wanderer (talk) 13:04, 24 April 2008 (UTC)) scheme might work in practice:

1. Indian Buddhism
   1. Early
      1. Origins: the Buddha &c
      2. karma & rebirth, 4 noble truths, 5 precepts, monastic order, stupas, abhidharma ...
      3. Theravada Buddhism close to this; many ideas & practices still used in mahayana as well
      4. ?
   2. middle
      1. origins of Mahayana
      2. teachings &practices: bodhisattvas, emptiness, mind-only ...
      3. East Asian Buddhism derived from this
      4. radical reform of earlier tradition
   3. late
      1. origins of tantra
      2. practices
      3. Tibetan Buddhism close to this
      4. less radical relative to Mahayana
2. Theravada
   1. arrival in Ceylon
   2. ...
   3. main religion of Veylon, Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos
   4. conservative
3. East Asian Buddhism
   1. introduction to China
   2. Pure Land, Zen &c
   3. main Buddhism of China, Korea, Vietnam, Japan
   4. nonliteral
4. Tibetan
   1. introduction to Tibet
   2. ...
   3. Tibet, Mongolia, Bhutan, Kalmykia
5. ...

Peter jackson (talk) 11:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] new discussions

[edit] Additions to article

Note additional sections that need to be incorporated into the article; add specific references and comments below

[edit] Pure Land

[edit] Karma

[edit] Rebirth

[edit] Demographics

[edit] Sources

Offer reliable and verifiable sources from authoritative practitioners and respected academics, that apply to buddhism generally. please note source context (i.e. how, where and why it might be used in the article

[edit] practitioner sources

[edit] academic sources

• "The early teaching (Harvey, Introduction, p. 47) and the traditional understanding in the Theravada (Hinnels, John R. (1998). The New Penguin Handbook of Living Religions. London: Penguin Books. ISBN 0140514805. ,pages 393f) is that these are an advanced teaching for those who are ready for them. The Mahayana position is that they are a preliminary teaching for people not yet ready for the higher and more expansive Mahayana teachings. (Harvey, Introduction to Buddhism, p. 92) They are little known in the Far East. (Eliot, Japanese Budhism, Edward Arnold, London, 1935, page 60)" Peter jackson (talk) 09:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

• "many Buddhisms (Gethin, Foundations of Buddhism, Oxford University Press, 1998, page 2) or "Buddhist religions". (Robinson et al., Buddhist Religions, 5th edn, Wadsworth, Belmont, California, 2004) Others again define religion in ways that exclude it. (Numen, vol 49, page 389; reprinted in Williams, Buddhism, Routledge, 2005, Volume III, page 403)" Peter jackson (talk) 09:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Editing and Copyediting

Editorial team to edit article.

[edit] Pictures and other resources

Further develop the article to be as interesting and informative as possible.

[edit] Review FA requirements & Submit for article assessment

Develop a strategy for reaching FA status.

[edit] General comments, complaints, and/or observations not covered in the above

if you don't know where to put it, put it here; expect this section to be refractored frequently.