Talk:Ludwig von Mises

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Contents

[edit] Spacing in "Contributions to the field of economics"

Anyone know why there are several lines of spacing in this section? Looks very unprofessional. Is it passive vandalism or something else?Ikilled007 18:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dolfuss Coup

I know my comments will be immediately deleted by the Libertarians, but... Strange how no one mentions that Von Mises' role as chief economic advisor to Dolfuss directly led to the collapse of the Austrian economy and the coup that unseated Dolfuss. Also, no one mentions that Von Mises fled Vienna just ahead of an angry mob that wanted to lynch him the same way they had their Chancellor. Instead, there is this bogus obfuscation about "fleeing Nazi terror" -- when, really, he was fleeing the workers and peasants whose livelihoods his failed economic policies had destroyed. (unsigned comment by User:68.10.35.153)

Mises was indeed an advisor to Dollfuss, as the article on Engelbert Dollfuss notes. If you want to make the claim that Mises was fleeing "workers and peasants" you'll need a source. This English translation of a Le Monde article seems to indicate that Mises' likely motivation for moving to Switzerland and then the US was that his theoretical works offered arguments against all socialist planning and that he was a Jew.
It is true that Mises had made himself known in academic circles in 1920, through an article that demonstrated the impossibility of a socialist economy’s avoiding total bankruptcy. Thus one might now say that Mises was the very first one to foresee the fall of the Berlin Wall. The reasoning is simple: all planning involves economic calculations, which can be based only on real prices. But real prices can proceed only from voluntary exchanges. Such exchanges require that those doing the exchanging are the owners of what they exchange. In a socialist economy, however, production goods are collectivised. Thus no real price can arise from exchanging them, and consequently no economic calculation is possible, and errors of investment are inevitable. The article of 1920 had sparked an enormous debate, because many economists, even non-socialist ones, believed that economic calculation in a collectivist economy was possible.
Mises’ demonstration certainly could not have been pleasing to the Nazis, who had aspirations to economic planning. What made his case still worse in their eyes was that they sensed, with remarkable acuity, that he was the most authentic heir of the “Austrian School,” founded in the previous century by Karl [spelling sic] Menger and continued by Eugen Böhm-Bawerk. This current of thought had given a scientific foundation to the subjective theory of value. “Value lies in us, not in things,” summarises Mises. The task of the economist, accordingly, is to explain what man does, not what man should do. He seeks to explain the price of tobacco, alcohol, or marijuana, not their merits or demerits. Nothing to do with the “labour theory of value” coming from the English School (Adam Smith, Ricardo) and taken up again by Marx. Likewise nothing to do with the positivist economics professed in Germany, which trapped itself in the dead end of historicism, piling up mountains of mutually irreducible “historical facts.”
In fact, the Nazis on that 15 March 1938 had put their hand on a veritable treasure of economic thought, but they could do nothing with it but what they did: transport it somewhere in Germany in a sealed coach.
As an aggravating circumstance, Mises was Jewish, and the fact that his grandfather had been raised to the nobility by Emperor Franz-Josef in 1881, the very day of Ludwig’s birth, evidently changed nothing in the eyes of the Nazis (the Mises Institute’s crest is none other than the Mises family’s coat-of-arms after its ennoblement).
At the moment when the Hitlerites are ransacking his Viennese apartment, Mises and his wife are already in Geneva, trying to begin a new life. But the defeat of France in May-June 1940 convinces them that the whole of Europe is likely to fall under the Nazi assault. And they attempt, along with other Jews including the economist Charles Kindleberger, to reach Spain by bus in order to get from there to America. The bus is stopped in France, in the non-occupied zone. Mises telephones Professor Louis Rougier, whom he has come to know through having met him at scientific congresses before the war. Rougier plays a mysterious role in Vichy, charged with a “secret mission” to Churchill in London, a mission which will come to nothing. In any case, shortly after the telephone call all the Jews on the bus that had been stopped receive visas for America via Spain and Portugal.
DickClarkMises 03:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Additionally, I would refer interested parties to "The Cultural Background of Ludwig von Mises" at Mises.org. DickClarkMises 05:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Academia's reaction upon Mises' arrival in the U.S.

Just a note, he was labelled a "right-ring reactionary":

"At a time when every communist and social democratic exile from Europe was given a high academic post in the United States, Mises was refused a job. But with the help of Henry Hazlitt and Lawrence Fertig, Mises secured a visiting professorship at New York University's Graduate School of Business. His salary was paid by business people and foundations, and he was never to be a regular member of the faculty. The dean, John Sawhill, even lobbied good students not to take Mises's "right-wing, reactionary" classes. In later years, Sawhill helped mangle the market as head energy bureaucrat in Washington, D.C."WHEELER 16:16, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Copyvio

What's the dealio on Ludwig von Mises? I spoke directly with Jeff Tucker, the Vice-President of the LvMI and he gave me permission to use that text. It was written for ANB (who the LvMI gave permission to use it) by a fellow (Hullsmann) who up until this month was a resident senior fellow there (he has now gone on to a University in France). Anyways, I stated that in the edit log and at the bottom. Although I appreciate the concern, please contact me next time.

--Tejano 13:48, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

Since you posted it anonymously, I had no idea who to contact. If you are User:Tejano you should log in to that account. Anyway, the article says this: "Copyright © 2003 American Council of Learned Societies. Published by Oxford University Press. All rights reserved." Is that wrong? Does Mr. Tucker have the authority to license this under the GFDL? He's not the original author and he doesn't appear to represent the copyright holder. Also, let's move this to Talk:Ludwig von Mises. I'm copying these comments there. Rhobite 22:02, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)
Is there some way we can have an actual article up here while the copyvio process works? This is kind of an eyesore, and its covering up the pre-copyvio information that some people might want to get at. - Nat Krause 07:03, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

I've put in the ODP category as there is a list of links. I maintain them as the editor for the Austrian Economics page, but I think that they are worthy of being listed.

I've taken out the LvMI link, as there is an already referenced Wikipedia article about him.

I've also removed the LvMI bio, as although it is excellent, it is listed on the ODP category and to cut down clutter. I've actually "cooled" it so it will always be listed first. Some other editor may want to relist it, but I think that it should be taken off.

user:JASpencer

I don't think three links is particularly cluttered, and I disagree that as soon as something is on ODP it should be deleted from Wikipedia. I'm relinking the bio. Rhobite 20:45, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Hulsmann version

If you have any questions regarding the version I recently edited into place, contact Guido Hulsmann at: jgh@guidohulsmann.com (he is the original author who wrote it while employed at the Mises Institute of whom, the Vice-President - Jeff Tucker - gave permission to have it placed here).Tejano 23:50, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Poor Ludwig

Considering the fact that communists and socialists have been persecuted and murdered for their beliefs for over 200 years, I have an extremely difficult time feeling sorry for Dr Mises. Perhaps he should have considered taking a job at the University of Idaho so his feelings would not get hurt at NYU.

A difficult feat, since communism didn't exist until the mid-19th century. If you have a suggestion on how to improve this article, please make it. Rhobite 19:45, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

This paragraph should just be deleted. It's nothing more than an attempt at denigration. It adds nothing, and is in fact quite crass. Lose it.

For your information, communists murdered those who did not fall in line with their beliefs (can you say Cultural revolution). --Knucmo2 22:58, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Austrian nobility

What was von Mises place in the Austrian nobility? Are we adding him simply because he has "von" in his name? I don't see any mention of nobility in his linked biographies. -Willmcw 22:51, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

Do to the lack of a source this assertion, I'm removing the category. -Willmcw 02:08, May 9, 2005 (UTC)


Yes, because he has a "von" in his name, he was nobility. People in Austria who had a "von" in their name were probably 99.9% nobility. Note, in northern Germany that was not necessarily the case. His full name was Ludwig Edler von Mises, Edler being a noble title similar to the english "esquire". You can check this website out as well [1]. I am putting him back into the category, cheers. antares911 21:41, June 6, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I searched on Edler and apparently it is the lowest rung of German nobility.[2] Unless anyone is claiming that Mises misppropriated the designation it seems fair. Thanks, -Willmcw

Edler was a title that was more or less unique to Austria only (not Germany, *ahem*). (with the exception of Bavaria maybe, not 100% sure). Even without a noble title like Edler, Fürst, Graf,..etc. there was also the untitled nobility, which had a simple "von" in their name. you´re welcome :-) Antares911 22:36, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That may be true in Austria. One of the other sources I found said that in Northern Germany, IIRC,:some folks who are not noble use "Von" in their name. The noble there use the small "v" "von" or the abbreviation "v." to distinguish themselves. Anyway, it looks like there's sufficient evidence for von Mises. Cheers, -Willmcw 22:43, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

The "von" in a name in Northern Germany can be quite similar to the "van" in Dutch names. More confusingly there is some nobility, that did not have a "von" in their name, but where noble nevertheless. such cases are rare though (not so in France, where many of the high nobility did not have a "de" in their name, and some who had a "de" were not noble). It literally translates as being "from" a certain place. The "v." that is sometimes used by some nobility (in letters, name-cards, but not officially) is more fashionable in Northern Germany (Old Prussia for example), however in places such as Bavaria or Austria, it was snuffed upon as being unsophisticated. therefore an abbreviated "v." was not common in the south. Antares911 21:16, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Mises was Jewish, and the fact that his grandfather had been raised to the nobility by Emperor Franz-Josef in 1881, the very day of Ludwig’s birth, evidently changed nothing in the eyes of the Nazis (the Mises Institute’s crest is none other than the Mises family’s coat-of-arms [3] after its ennoblement)." [4] This came from Roderick Long's website. Dr. Long is a senior faculty member of the Mises Institute. DickClarkMises 03:45, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

That's a great anecdote. I would imagine that it was rare honor, and that his grandfather must have been notable in his time. Could you add something to the article, either a sentence or paragraph, in your own words about Mises's family? Or even an article about the first "Herr von Mises" if enough information is available. Cheers, -Willmcw 08:21, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Human Action" links in e-books

I'm wondering if it is necessary to refer to both the "standard" and scholars edition of the book "Human Action". For someone knowledgeable about the content, would the scholars edition be sufficient? Thanks for the thought.

P.S. of course, the scholars edition being a whopping 54 Mb of PDF download might be reason enough.

Courtland 03:00, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

There is indeed a reason to include both. "Human Action" has gone through 3 revisions. The Scholar's Edition, which is published by the Mises Institute, is a reproduction of the first edition, with an introduction by a number of important present-day Austrians including Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Guido Hulsmann, et al. The Scholar's Edition also includes an original index that has never been published with any other version of "Human Action." There are also textual differences between the different versions, although I have not read any other than the Scholar's Edition, so I cannot personally testify to the accuracy of that. The editorial vice-president of the Mises Institute was my source though, so I feel it to be reliable information. DickClarkMises 22:08, 28 July 2005 (UTC)


[edit] content dispute on coercive monopoly

There appears to be a content dispute on the coercive monopoly article. If this subject is of interest to you, please reply to the straw poll at Talk:Coercive_monopoly. -- BBlackmoor (talk) 16:25, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Praxoelogy useless?

From the article:

"Praxeology has been criticized by most economists as useless, amongst them Friedrich August von Hayek."

This line feels wrong to me. A quick google search for turns up nothing to suggest such universal condemnation.

[edit] Page move

Someone moved this article from Ludwig von Mises to Ludwig Heinrich Edler von Mises. I reverted this move, due to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). Since he is most often referred to as Ludwig von Mises, that's what this article should be called. Rhobite 01:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. The vast, vast majority of folks aren't aware of his full name (the Margit von Mises-endorsed LvMI has a Mises portrait which is labeled with a placard that states his name as "Ludwig Edler von Mises."). Dick Clark 06:11, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
The article on the preposition "von" claims that:
In Austria, in contrast, not only were the privileges of the nobility abolished, their titles and prepositions were abolished as well. Thus, for example, Friedrich von Hayek became Friedrich Hayek in 1919 when Austria abolished all indicators of nobility in family names. On this issue, also see Austrian nobility.
This is covered in greater detail at Austrian nobility. As it appears that our Ludwig von Mises was a resident of Austria in 1919, and subject to its laws, wouldn't this law, if correctly depicted, have applied to his family as well? What the state gives the state may take away. Do we have access to his books or articles published in Austria after 1919? Presumably the author would have been listed as "Ludwig Mises", or "Ludwig Heinrich Mises." -Will Beback 19:55, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
If this is the case then I don't suggest that we change the title of the article, but we might say that he resumed use of the "von" when he left Austria, or whatever. -Will Beback 19:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyvio redux

You know something? This article is just plain copyright violation. It was taken from http://www.mises.org/misestributes/misesjgh.asp ... note that that page is "Copyright © 2003 American Council of Learned Societies. Published by Oxford University Press. All rights reserved," not copyright of the Mises Institute. I e-mailed Hülsmann, and he told me that he has no rights to it. This thing belongs to American National Biography which is subscription-only website. I can't see how this could possibly be GFDL. That being the case, I'm going to list this as a copyright problem. To avoid blanking the article, in the meantime, what I'm going to do is this: this article and its history are goign to move back to Ludwig Heinrich Edler von Mises. I will put up the pre-copyvio version of this article back at Ludwig von Mises. Once everything is sorted out, we can reunite this page with its edit history. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 23:12, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Weird. Thanks for catching that. Sounds like a good recovery plan. -Will Beback 00:03, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page history merge and copyvio removal

I have merged the revision histories of Ludwig von Mises and Ludwig Heinrich Edler von Mises, leaving out all revisions which contained the copyright violation (and those which were superfluous, like edits reverting to the pre-copyvio version). These deleted edits are now located at the title "Ludwig Heinrich Edler von Mises". This removal of copyvio material explains the significant gaps visible in this article's edit history. Despite this, this article's revision history should flow smoothly if people reverted to pre-copyvio versions properly. This page history merge has been brought to you by Mark 17:28, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

The proper pronunciation of "Mises" might be useful in the first line, even if it's not IPA. Srnec 17:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Smth like [ludvιk fɔn mi:zes] I believe.Constanz - Talk 10:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re-work e-books header

The main page's heading of "Online e-books" inhibits contributors from adding wiki links to pages on specific books by Mises. I'm suggesting we make an adjustment encouraging the wiki links followed by "Full text" external links and ISBN numbers, similar to what we see on the Murray Rothbard entry. -- RayBirks 15:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

It's a good idea. Otherwise it's chaotic. Jouvenel 04:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mises a Catholic?

An anonymous editor added Category:Catholic to this article. While many of the notable figures from the Mises Institute are Catholics, Mises himself was an Austrian Jew who was personally agnostic. As Laurence Vance notes here,

Although one of his grandfathers had been a rabbi, Mises was not a synagogue attendee. He was an agnostic, believing that no one could know about God.

DickClarkMises 20:13, 9 February 2007 (UTC) He suffered and emigrated because of his Jewish origin.His both parents were ethnic Jews . Then he is also a representative of the people of Jewish origin , like Einstein , von Neumann, Spinoza , Karl Marx etc .He also was American - lived a good part of his life in the USA and had American nationality. He was born in Galiczia, in Ukraina , under the Austrian monarchy domination and was of Austrian (German - speaking culture) and as it was emphasized a "representative of the Austrian school of economy" - that could be a better definition than Austrian economist - because Austrian refers first and all to his country of origin - then the Austrian-Hungarian empire - Galitzia having been then a part of the Austrian empire . It's true that those facts are mentioned in the body of the text they could be mentioned also in the definition - it's also true that this can sound rather heavily - Austrian - American of Jewish origin ,born in Galitzia ( Ukraina ),representative of the Austrian school of economy. This was my intention. Sorry.Cpt.schoener (talk) 19:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pronounciation

Can someone please add an IPA pronunciation to this article? Thanks, --Selket Talk 22:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Never mind, someone put it further up, but didn't add it to the article. --Selket Talk 22:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:15, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Misessuit.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Under "Contributions to the field of economics"

I'm wondering if this passage is a quote of Mises or just POV on the part of the author?

"The only certain fact about Russian affairs under the Soviet regime with regard to which all people agree is: that the standard of living of the Russian masses is much lower than that of the masses in the country which is universally considered as the paragon of capitalism, the United States of America. If we were to regard the Soviet regime as an experiment, we would have to say that the experiment has clearly demonstrated the superiority of capitalism and the inferiority of socialism."

??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.211.20 (talk) 13:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, nevermind. It was right in the reference. :( 75.45.211.20 (talk)