Talk:Lowell, Massachusetts

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[edit] Old statements about someone's edits

I made a pretty major rewrite of the history section. Enjoy the process of revising it. Couldn't figure out how to cite offline sources; my source for the early history of the site of Lowell is Gookin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.228.204 (talk • contribs) 03:16, 27 July 2005

[24.147.228.204 (27 July 2005) and 24.147.160.15 (16 August 2005) edits by same person. Yes, I want to remain anonymous.]

More recent additions: I changed the listing of "Centralville" to reflect the way it is spelled by the Lowell Police Department on their website; I have seen both spellings in wide use. The only neighborhoods I mentioned that are not listed on the Lowell Police Department website are "Lower Belvidere" and Oakland. Oakland is the area around Shedd Park (particularly on the south and east sides of Shedd Park: the school used to be called the Oakland School, and the Fire Station near the park was called the Oakland Fire House, I believe (and I think both buildings probably still have the name "Oakland" on them).

I added a short description of the government of Lowell. I added the names of the current City Manager and the current representatives in the Massachusetts House and Senate, and the representative in the US House, because those names don't change too often (but added a date). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.147.160.15 (talk • contribs) 23:37, 16 August 2005.

[edit] Africans?

I haven't spent much time in Lowell, but I very quickly noticed that there are a lot of immigrants from Africa there. Their presence seemed to define the character of the city nearly as much as the Cambodians. I'm moving to Lowell soon and will probably work on this article over time, but if anyone is knowledgable about this community, it seems important to mention. --Brian Z 13:49, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't know much about the African immigrant community; just goes to show you that you can't know everything about a place. I should also have mentioned the Portugeuse-American and Brazillian community, which has been growing for the past 10-15 years and was always important to the community.

The African-American community is somewhat small, but I'm sure should also be mentioned. By the way, thanks for catching the typos.

[Anonymous author of previous edits.] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.147.52.112 (talk • contribs) 01:21, 19 August 2005.

There are African- Americans in Lowell. I'm Cambodian and have no issue with putting that in. The reason, I believe, that it is left out is because the section is trying to emphasize the majority which is indeed known to be Cambodian and Latino people. Edit away if you feel like it. Lowell's diverse so it's comprised of almost every race.

[edit] Statement about prosperity True/NPOV ?

Prosperity? I find the line "The public and private funds that have been invested in Lowell in the past few decades have been paying off greatly." to be a little baseless and simply anecdotal. Are there any numbers that can back this claim up? Are more businesses being opened and surviving? Are median incomes rising faster than inflation? If there isn't such information, and instead we have only the assurances of the elected officials, I think it should simply be considered an advertisement for the city and not actually fact. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.253.229.131 (talk • contribs) 13:59, 18 April 2006.

I think it can be reasonably argued without any numbers that the opening of the National Park, the renovation of many of the old mill and commercial buildings, and the improvements to public space have been good for the city as a whole - at least its image. The median income in downtown has gone up quite a bit, although it remains well below the city-wide average. Compare Lowell to Lawrence - something is paying off. Crime rates have fallen dramatically in Lowell in the past 15 years:
http://www.lowellpolice.com/crime_safety/crime_rates/crimerates.htm
This isn't very formal and maybe someone should do some more formal research, but I think the statement in question is fair.
-- CSZero 15:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about Pawtucket?

"Pawtucket was the birthplace of the American Industrial Revolution. Slater Mill, built in 1790 by Samuel Slater on the Blackstone River in downtown Pawtucket, was the first commercially successful cotton-spinning mill with a fully mechanized power system in America." Chevin 15:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

There was also an early mill at Waltham, Massachusetts.
You are correct, Lowell is correctly called the "Cradle of the American Industrial Revolution" - not the birthplace.
Lowell was the first planned factory town in America, and the size and scope of the "Lowell Experiment" was unprecidented. But it was not the first place where a full cotton-to-cloth factory existed.
--CSZero 16:58, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] People from Lowell

Centrx, you removed a bunch of people who are definately spent a great deal of time in Lowell or were actually born in Lowell. If you can find information to the contrary lets discuss it here and make the list the best in can be. Not sure about some of them like John Kerry, but the ones below are pretty obvious IMO.

Bette Davis was born in Lowell, check her article
While not born in Lowell, Ed McMahon "grew up" in Lowell and is closely associated with the town.
James McNeill Whistler, born in Lowell, see his article
Scott Grimes, born in Lowell
Michael Chiklis, born in Lowell

DrunkenSmurf 14:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The criteria I used was a little more relevant to the city than simply being born there. The list is so long, the more people that are listed with only the most attenuated, tangential connection to Lowell crowd out the people who actually choose to live there for decades and have an influence on the politics, business, and culture of the city. Note also that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of facts. If the people listed here are ultimately relevant to the history of the city, then they should be integrated into the main body of the article, and are here only as a stopgap until that time, or as a "See also"-like section for persons important to the town, like An Wang and Francis Cabot Lowell.
According to the James McNeill Whistler article, he apparently only lived in Lowell until he was six years old. The Ed McMahon article mentions absolutely nothing about Lowell. Bette Davis went to a private high school and the only mention of Lowell in her article is her being born there. The only mention in Scott Grimes again is his simple birth and, starting in television and movies at the age of 13, unless there is indication to the contrary a large part of his upbringing was not in Lowell. The Michael Chiklis article says that while he was born in Lowell, he grew up in Andover. The John Kerry removal was erroneous; he apparently lived there, campaigned, and was otherwise involved there, though this is probably true of numerous Massachusetts cities and towns. -- Centrx 17:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Fair point, I realize that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of facts, but having a section which displays prominent residents or other people affiliated with the town does make the article more interesting, which is also one of the goals of Wikipedia. I think this is probably why most articles about cities or towns that I have come across include such information. In addtion I would argue that inclusion of the information can lead to other articles which the veiwer may never have come across had they not clicked on one of these people to see what they are all about, as I have done many times.
Sorry for completely reverting your edits, I realized too late I had done that and then for some reason could not get back to the site to change it back before you did. In the case of Ed McMahon, he is always prominently figured in advertising that the City of Lowell does to promote itself and Chiklis always says he is "from Lowell" during appearances on local radio. Anyways, no big deal, I think your bigger point is to only include relevant peoples on the page and I don't disagree with that. Thanks for you input. DrunkenSmurf 19:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I'm From Lowell

Per this section, I currently live in Lowell. Let me know if I can inform you on local things. Yankee Rajput 13:56, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gangs

"The city of Lowell is home to thirty known active street gangs, many comprised of Latino and Asian youths."

I am just wondering why it is important to list that there are thirty active gangs in Lowell. The source is a quote from an individual, not an official agency like the police. Lowell does have gangs, but so do most cities in Massachusetts. I checked out the entries for the other large cities in Massachusetts. Most of these have worse crime rates, including Boston, but none mention a number of "active gangs" and most do not mention gangs at all. How about changing the entry about gangs to say: "Like most large urban communitees Lowell has some gang activity."?

Better yet why not remove the entry completely since nothing like it exists for the other large cities of Massachusetts?

I believe the current entry unfairly gives the impression that Lowell is a more violent place than it really is. 68.160.32.108 01:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)Tom Whiting

I agree. Putting a gang comment is really damaging the quality of the article. Like the above mentioned, gangs are everywhere, if not more than Lowell. Yes, I live in Lowell and crime here is, from my perspective, on a little increase. I here about gang related deaths/ violence a lot. It might be better to mention the efforts to prevent crime and even the Lowell Police's "efforts" to curb gang activity and the above.
I agree that it read out of place, and the number of active gangs is unimportant and I'm sure ever-changing. The poverty and crime that this city is largely (unfortunately, but somewhat fairly) known for does need to be mentioned in this article somewhere, but in a manner that is NPOV. We can't say that it doesn't belong just because bigger cities don't mention it. Boston is a large city area wise and geographically. People don't associate Boston with crime, because they don't associate Boston with Roxbury, Mattapan, and Dorchester - they think of them as seperate, even though they legally are not. Lowell is its inner-city neighborhoods, like Lawrence, Holyoke, etc, and what that brings along with it. Lowell just happens to be the largest of Massachusetts' depressed mill towns. You really can't go ten feet here without seeing some sign of gang activity, and it hurts our economy and image, and it is important. CSZero 13:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Government

The info box lists Lowell as having a Mayor/Councel government. This is incorrect I believe. Lowell has a Council-manager_government and the Mayor is more or less only a figurehead. Does anyone have a problem with me changing this? CSZero 14:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I just noticed that the actual "government" section on the page is correct, so I'm just going to make the change. CSZero 14:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link added for text about immigrant women coming from Canada, historical

"Please do not add links to your book to Wikipedia, as you did to Lowell, Massachusetts. This is considered spamming. Thank you, CSZero 16:54, 26 February 2007 (UTC)"

What has been asked and what I tried to address in adding the link to the Lowell page, is to address the French aspect in the state, and particularly, the women of French heritage.

I posted the link to the book, Canuck and Other Stories, because the book addresses that gap in the knowledge. http://www.rhetapress.com/ The book is an important book because it is authentic, written by the women who came to the U.S., Lowell, via the land bride to work and live. It is also available in French. This is not a commercial. I am serious about making these works known.

The world is set to view all things in terms of best seller lists, profit margins, etc. that I think we are duped into believing that advocacy is the same thing as seeking celebrity. I think it is not. I advocate for the voices of Franco-American women in many aspects due to the fact of the silencings that have happened.

If this wikipedia is to be up-to-date...inclusion of local diversities is the way to go.

Rheta10 14:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)RCoteRobbins, 2-27-2007

Yes, but the text of the book is not available at the site. Wikipedia:External_links is the guideline on this sort of thing. As a Lowell resident from a long line of Lowell residents, some French-Canadian, the history is definitely appreciated. Perhaps we need an immigrants section in this article, since Lowell's history, intertwined with its industrial heritage, is those who have come here and continue to come here looking for a better life. However, we cannot allow Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia, to become a collection of links to books that must be paid for, or compete against each other. CSZero 15:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Let me add that I feel that many of the books in the "Lowell in Print" section are unnotable and are basically spam as well. Jack Kerouac, for example, is a well-known, encyclopedic person. Many of the other people are not and should probably be removed. Actually, let me go do that now and clear out the red links. CSZero 15:05, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

I think we should move the history section into its own article: History of Lowell, Massachusetts. For now, I've just tagged it a stub with a bunch of links, but I plan to, or others might, make it a bit more coherent and pull some of the size/pictures out of this article.

CSZero 19:29, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

There. I completed the article this morning. Please edit away. I feel bad that I didn't inline cite virtually at all, but I did include a bibliography. Also, the Greater Lowell article I feel could use a hand other than my own in it. Thanks, CSZero 05:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone want to reconcile/edit the History section on this page with the History of Lowell, Massachusetts article? I don't want to do it, because since I wrote the latter article, I'd feel I'd be unfairly biased doing it. Thanks, CSZero 13:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Done. CSZero 17:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources Cite Request

The history section on this page doesn't cite a single source, DalmatianMommy is correct. A large percentage of this information can be verified at [1]. What's the convention on how to attribute a section to a single source? CSZero 12:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Geography

I would like to make some changes here:

"Belvidere is the mostly residential area south of the Merrimack River, east of the Concord River and north of the Lowell and Lawrence railroad. Belvidere Hill is an Historic District along Fairmount St. Lower Belvidere refers to the section west of Nesmith Street. Back Central is an urban area south of downtown towards the mouth of River Meadow Brook. South Lowell is the area south of the railroad and east of the Concord River. Other neighborhoods in this zip code are Ayers City, Bleachery, Chapel Hill, the Grove, Oaklands, Riverside Park, Swede Village and Wigginsville, but their use is mostly antiquated."

I would argue that Oaklands at least is still used, but I do know people who are not familiar with the term. Perhaps more important though is the definition given for South Lowell. The definition here is basically that of the Woburn Street area, whereas the official city "neighborhood" map contains many of these antequated neighborhoods in South Lowell. For example, Ayer's City, which is very clearly signed when exiting the Connector from Plain Street, is in South Lowell on this map. If we don't word it this way, the entire section of the city west of the Concord River and South and East of the Connector/River Meadow Brook is not in any recognized neighborhood. Since the 3A South exit from the Connector says this is South Lowell as well as the map, I think we should word the article as such, and then point out many of the specific sections, like the Bleachery (is there anyone alive still from when a Bleachery was operable there?) are obsolete. CSZero (talk) 23:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me also add that Patrick Murphy, who ran for Congress, called his neighborhood sandwiched between Gorham St and the railroad The Grove, so there's someone under 30 who recognized another one of these terms. Also, I was taught that Lower Belvidere is not only the area west of Nesmith Street, but also the area north of Andover Street, down along the Merrimack. CSZero (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm being obsessive, but I'm bored at work. Google Maps labels the Bleachery, the Oaklands, and Ayer's City in addition to the also not-always-recognized Middlesex Village. CSZero (talk) 23:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)