Talk:Louis XV of France

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Here we go again! JHK has decided for everyone else that written documentation from the courtiers of the King is not acceptable as historical fact.

Documents have to be read with an eye for who they were written for, and the prejudices of the authors. For example: were the courtiers expecting the king, or the royal family, to read what they wrote? If so, they're going to avoid unflattering remarks, true or not. A courtier who writes that today the queen was in bed with a fever is probably telling the truth as he knows it--but the queen might stayed in her apartments for some other reason, and not wanted to offend an important guest, so claimed a fever. In other words, this isn't medical evidence, though it is evidence that the queen wasn't holding audiences on the day in question.

Another important point is when the courtiers wrote these things: a diary or account-book kept at the time is much more likely to be accurate than a memoir written years later, because memory is a tricky thing. Vicki Rosenzweig

DW, if it is "fact" (and I gather that you're talking about the bits I cut), here's how to make it stick:
"According to x, who was one of y's courtiers, x was spoiled, inebriate,thick as two short planks...whatever."
Attribution in reporting is key here. So is a critical look at sources. Do we know if y was a favorite? Did y write years after falling into disfavor? Did z, the Lord Chamberlain, say it was a pack of lies or confirm it?
It doesn't really make sense to complain about unfair edits if you refuse to write in a manner that supports what you say. JHK


I have watched with interest and note that from looking at numerous Wiki articles, virtually none have references or identify sorces except for ones pasted from the 1911 encyclopedia. Suddenly, you are asking DW to do something new. Perhaps I'm mistaken and someone can direct me to articles by JHK that are referenced and attributed..... Elliot

articles by JHK don't make statements that are not NPOV, normally speaking. I've asked for attribution for articles that are written with an inappropriate amount of purple prose -- in some cases that contradicts what sounds correct. JHK

If it's of any value, I fully support JHK in her battle on these pages. -- Zoe

contradicts what sounds correct Since when is what souns to JHK the facts. Unfortunately on the Internet anyone can take the identity of someone else or create a phony biography. A quick response and the ability to cut and paste does not validate the imposition of someone's view. It seems many regulars on this site have been intimidated and are allowing this to continue. ...Elliot

You're not satisfied with driving JHK away, you still want to character assassinate her? Why don't you post YOUR credentials? -- Zoe

Contents

[edit] Contradiction

In the paragraph talking about the family tragedy it says that Louis XIV died a week later than his wife of smallpox, the same disease she had. Then in the first sentence in the next paragraph it says that he was dieing of gangrene. Which one is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.110.171.4 (talk) 03:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Louis XV in popular culture

Perhaps some mention is warrented that he is a main character in the 2006 anime Le_Chevalier_D'Eon? MaKamitt 09:54, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Would be better described as "portrayals" or something. "X in pop culture" is bile-inducing. Stevage 14:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, so no objections if I add in this under "Modern portrayals of Louis XV"? MaKamitt 23:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Louis XV - Naval battle of Quiberon Bay (1759)

Did Louis XV have a naval minister at the time of this battle or alternatively what were the name(s) of the key admirals involved? Was there a minister/admiral with a name like Maximillion? If so to really push it what was his wife's first name?

The battle was apparently in the Bay of Biscay is there a port with a name like Amiens (I know that's inland at the site of the Somme battles of WW1)?

Please reply to alan.millett@bigpond.com originally Jan 2004, editted Feb 2004

A list of Louis XV's ministers would be more useful than hearing about Mme du Barry's career as a prostitute... Wetman 18:21, 23 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Why did someone change the picture? What was wrong with the old one? I happened to like the old one...

[edit] Making a decent article

This article is just a pile of gossip, cliché, and prejudice. It doesn't honor Wikipedia. I have started to turn it into a more decent article, writing an introduction, and first two chapters. Other chapters remain to be written and rubbish to be deleted. Hardouin 01:05, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hardouin, good edits! Huge improvement. You'll understand my few tweaks I think. Some minor reservations
  1. "announces the bourgeois rulers of the romantic 19th century" This stretches the sense of bourgeois too far. Be more accurate: sentimental and informal?
  2. I changed "Parliament of Paris" to "Parlement of Paris in the text.The similar etymology of these separate institutions is misleading. Making "speeches" is about all they have in common.
  3. "from a royal family who had never interbred with the French royal family, and it was hoped that she would bring new blood into the French royal family." These are semi-modern theories about "interbreeding" that did not obtain. Your other remarks on suitability are more to the point.

The remaining old text at the tail end of the article isn't up to the standard set by your new edits. --Wetman 11:29, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree about all the "few tweaks", except for those in the introduction. The king was very close to the queen for about 10 years, and did not have mistresses at the time, so things are a bit more complicated than saying that he liked intimacy away from the queen. In fact after about 10 years his love faded because of the unconditional love of the queen, and frequent pregnancies ending only in girls. I intend to talk about that in the rest of the article, when I have time to add more chapters. Number two, only the Pompadour had an influence on policy, the other mistresses did not have influence, so it is a bit exagerated to say that he was criticized because of the influence of the mistresses on the policy. Actually, the real criticism was more moralistic, it concentrated on the fact that the king had sex with so many women, and on the fact that they were not chosen in the aristocracy like in the days of old Louis XIV, but they often came from lower-classes.
To answer the questions above:
1- bourgeois... in France people commonly say that the king had a bourgeois lifestyle in private. When I talk about the Bourgeois rulers of the 19th century I am thinking about Louis-Philippe of France for instance, or the kings of Belgium. After all, when you visit Versailles, guides will tell you that if Louis XIV was famous for building the Hall of Mirror, Louis XV was famous for building the first water closets with flushing system and bathroom with running water...
3- about bringing fresh blood in the royal family... again, I have always heard that. Even back then I think people new that marrying cousins was not necesarily good. Think about the Habsburg and some of their disfigured members... Hardouin 10:43, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Family Name of Louis XV

Is the family name of Louis XV caled Quinze Scope_Creep 21:27 20th September 2005 (GMT)

No. "Quinze" means "Fifteen" in French. john k 20:38, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

He was a Bourbon. As was Louis XIV and Louis XVI. Sonic Mew | talk to me 20:34, 12 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Marquise de Pompadour

I can't believe no one has changed the description of the Pompadour as "frigid". The term is extremely offensive and misogynist, to say the least.

Which word would you use instead? It's just a medical word really. Are we going to use "politically correct" expressions such as Female sexual arousal disorder or Inhibited sexual desire? That sounds a little bit long-winded to me... Hardouin 13:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Régence

I have tried to improve the style and content of the recent edits about the Régence. I have also deleted some lenghty passages that are not really relevant to Louis XV. These deleted paragraphs, on the other hand, could be added to the article about the Régence and to the article about Philippe II d'Orléans. Hardouin 01:06, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] few things

There is not scientific evidence / concensus that supports the idea that mental stress causes miscarriages. In any case it is impossible to prove that there were not other physical factors some 200+ years ago. That line should be changed / modified to read, "many believed that her miscarriage was related to hearing the news of what happened to her family"

The parts about Damiens are not very academic either. J.Collins and Dale Van Kley (French History Academics) both argue that Damiens attempted assination was related to Jasenist - Parlement refusal of sacraments, anit-clerical and growing public opinion situations. The 'speculations' on what may have motivated him in this article are a little far fetched and there is documentation from his trial found in Van Kley in which Damiens says he was motivated to force the king to act justly, expell the Jesuits and ensure that good Catholics (Jansenists) receive the sacraments.

I also found the term frigid unacademic, unecessary and without support. There were many pamphlets that implied she was the opposite of frigid but these are not reliable either. The term should just be removed because it is offensive and because it is inconsistent and not verifiable.

[edit] repeated stuff

i'm removing a few info at the conclusion section which is redeundant.

[edit] Pastel

Can someone who is far better at editing than me please restore the pastel picture of Louis XV that is in the pastel article

[edit] too long

There is too much information in this article that has nothing to do with the King himself.

Best Wikipedia article

I think this article deserves ten stars. This user has done a terrific job giving the details on this man's life. I got most of the info on him by reading this document! HERE ARE THE TEN STARS; **********

[edit] known as

What was Louis XV known as before the deaths of his father and brother? john k 00:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marble Court pic

I'd like to see a picture of the Marble Court of Trianon for the Damiens section.

I would also like to see the same pastel portrait that is in the Pastel article Cloud Stryfe 21:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deluge vs. flood

There has been a dispute about the appropriate English translation of the French phrase "Après moi, le déluge". Michaelsanders contends that "Flood is the conventional English translation of that phrase (more intelligible)". Here are the statistics from Google:

  • 11,500 "after me the deluge"
  • 6 "after me comes the deluge"
  • 3,000 "after me the flood"
  • 640 "after me comes the flood"

And here are the statistics from Google Books:

  • 615 "after me the deluge"
  • 4 "after me comes the deluge"
  • 58 "after me the flood"
  • 3 "after me comes the flood"

Based on Google and Google Books, it would seem that deluge is far more frequently used. Noel S McFerran 22:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] April 11 Edits

I have made some edits, mainly stylistic, to try to polish up the tone of the article. I hope they have improved it.

My substantive edits were primarily to change the emphasis of the discussion of Louis' 1744 illness. Based on the sources I've seen, it appears that the refusing of absolution was done in order to get the King to renounce his mistress. The publication of his renunciation seems to have been done without his consent.

I think some work is still needed on the article. For example, the source I read (Julian Swann's chapter "Politics: Louis XV" in William Doyle, ed., Old Regime France 1648-1788, Oxford Univ. Press, 2001), indicates that the financial reforms of the 1740's were opposed principally by the clergy, and that the opposition wasn't irresistible -- i.e., Louis unnecessarily caved. It also indicated that the Parlement's remonstrances came genuinely in response to the persecution of Jansenists not as a pretext for opposition directed at the financial reforms.

Another concern is that the article virtually ends in 1757. More is needed on the last 17 years of Louis' reign.

Aldrichio 23:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

The article is full of heavily biased unsourced statements in the spirit of revisionism:

While historians have traditionally treated Louis XV harshly, more recent research has suggested that he was in fact very intelligent and dedicated to the task of ruling the largest kingdom of Europe.
Yet at the time the French public, influenced as it was by a violent campaign of libels against the king and the Marquise de Pompadour starting in the mid-1740s, could only see royal incompetence and spending sprees.
Although history has painted him as a weak, vacillating, and indecisive ruler who preferred pleasure over government, Louis XV did make some important reforms during his reign.

If these statements accurately reflect the modern scholarly consensus (which needs to be proved), they should be spun off into a separate section which will list the conflicting views of different historians on Louis's activities. The prospective section should be well referenced. Otherwise I urge the casual statements to be removed. --Ghirla-трёп- 15:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Wholeheartedly agree with the above. There is nothing in this article that makes me think Louis XV was anything but incompetent, given that most of the beneficial effects from his reign come from Cardinal Fleury and his amazing reliance on him, rather than from the king himself. When left to his own devices he was nothing greater than decidedly mediocre. The article consistently highlights the main problem, his lack of a strong will. The offhand comments thrown in give the entire article a contradictory tone that is rather confusing. On one hand, all the things about Louis XV that made him nothing more than average are plain for all to see in this article and would be if not for the aforementioned comments. 204.95.62.232 18:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

My understanding is that general consensus is that Louis XV was naturally intelligent and might have made a good ruler, but that his character was ruined by his upbringing, leaving him an incompetent and ultimately disastrous ruler. So, anyway, there was no problem with his natural talents. The problem was that he had no particular patience for the task of government. The general agreement, I think, is that he was certainly a lot smarter than his grandson. Anyway, I agree this stuff should be referenced and incorporated into the text in a smooth manner. john k (talk) 07:47, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

In agreement with both of you. Louis XV was better suited to be a constitional monarch. GoodDay (talk) 18:20, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Continued agreement and addition of original research tag

I do not know much about French history, but it certain appears that someone has a particular perspective that they wanted to share. It may not be wrong, but it should certainly be cited and possibly--as the above writer stated--spun off into a separate section. I read this article for information, but I felt I could not trust the content. I also felt confused, like the writer above. G

Given what seems like original research (or the absence of citations if it is not original research), the tag is justified. I would be happy to change this myself, but my lack of knowledge on the subject makes me hesitant to do so. I hope others will be able to make this better. Kearnsdm (talk) 00:14, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Personally I don't see what's contradicting in the statements quoted above. Louis XV was for a very long time portrayed in a very bad light especially by French historians (he was, after all, the last great king before the French Revolution, so it is only natural that French people in the aftermath of the Revolution would depict him in a bad light), but modern historians have a much more nuanced view today. I'll try to find references when I have time to add to these statements (I think Encyclopaedia Universallis in particular can serve as a reference for this). Someone above also said that Louis XV was incompetent and that anything good that happened during his reign was due to Cardinal Fleury. But let's remember that the first ministry of Fleury accounts for only a small part of the reign of Louis XV. If Louis XV was a incompetent and mediocre as some of you say, and given that most of the reign was spent without Fleury, then surely the country should have crumbled and disintegrated. And yet none of this happened.
Let's remember that during the long reign of Louis XV France was never invaded (that can't be said of Prussia, Austria, or even England considering the 1745 invasion of the young Stuart pretender). France was the most prosperous European country along with England. In fact the country was much more prosperous than under Louis XIV. There were no huge famines contrary to the reign of Louis XIV, the country was professionally administered by intendants chosen and controlled by Louis XV. French trade increased greatly (one can think of Bordeaux, Nantes). French cities were modernized and embellished by the intendants (the Quais of Bordeaux, the public lighting and street naming in Paris, and so forth). In fact historians often compare the 18th century to a Golden Age for France. The French population increased from a low of 19 million at the end of the reign of Louis XIV which had been catastrophic in human terms, to an all time high of 26 million at the end of the reign of Louis XV (the first European country ever to cross the 25 million threshold). All of these achievements are not really what would be expected from a "mediocre" and "incompetent" king. Of course if by incompetent you mean that Louis XV failed to invade England, did not crush the English colonists in North America, did not overcome Germany and set the border of France on the Rhine, then yes I guess Louis XV was incompetent.
Anyway, probably the achievements of the reign such as those I've just mentioned should be added to the article so the readers can better understand the reassessment of modern historians. I'll try to do that as soom as I have time (unless someone else want to have a try). Godefroy (talk) 22:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)