Talk:Louis Armstrong

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Contents

[edit] older entries

Does anyone actually have a citation for Billie Holiday's response to the Uncle Tom accusations? I can't find a single online source to that effect aside from this article itself. - Nicholas Tam

Louis Armstrong is the king,
- Practically invented swing,
- Hero of the twentieth century.
- Did duets with many a fella,
- Father Hines, Bing, Hoagy, Ella,
- Strange he never thought of Kenny G.
 -

"I agree with Pat Metheny" - Richard Thompson

The article is now *much* improved, IMHO. --Robert Merkel

The section on "Was Armstrong an Uncle Tom?" is interesting but slightly non-NPOV and non-encyclopedic in style. For a start, it would be good to identify those who labelled him one.

I knew it was pushing it, which is why I put it in the summary, which I just did again.

I felt the Uncle Tom accusation was such a common perception|misperception that it had to be dealt with. The quickie version of his career is "from artist to irrelevant cartoon". Downbeat magazine complained about the Zulu king bit. I have a couple of URLs on the rest of it I'll add soon.

I tried to keep the arguments neutral "he was born in the south in 2001" so people could put 2+2 together. also the Little Rock statement belongs, so only the Miles Davis quote is a bit of a stretch and basically unattributed (but wow).

I think of kids doing term papers. Lots of encyclopedias have sidebars where they take up interesting issues.

Ortolan88

Just to clarify (I'm the one who commented on the Uncle Tom issue, sorry for not signing), I agree that it is highly relevant to the article. I just felt that that section was too close to an argument rather than description of facts and opinions. --Robert Merkel

-- I thought it was the same person, which is why I left your compliment in when I took out the other stuff (but I just now put back the Pat Metheny bit).

My thought on the Uncle Tom section -- here are points to be discussed about Armstrong -- I tried not to be offensive about his act (obviously an admirer, but it was corny to say the least) and I tried to mention some items that put the thought in context -- it was entertainment after all, and old-timey at that, he did speak out at least once, and Miles Davis of all people stuck up for him. I really tried not to make an overt argument. Maybe you or someone else will come up with a better way to handle it, but that's my best shot, so if it's up to me, I'm keeping it. Thanks for your interest. Ortolan88

"Oliver's band brought New Orleans style ensemble jazz to the attention of a wide public for the first time, and Armstrong blossomed. The Armstrong-Oliver recordings of 1923 were the first jazz most of the world had ever heard. "

I changed this because, alas, it is not true. Outside of Chicago and New Orleans, the Oliver Creole Jazz Band recordings attracted little notice at the time other than in a circle of "in the know" musicians. They sold in tiny amounts compared to the recordings of other groups of the time like the Original Dixieland Jass Band and Paul Whiteman. They are important as doccumenting this band that had an important influence on other musicians in Chicago, who then spread this influence widely. -- Infrogmation

So you took out the black bands because the white bands sold more. The ODJB was important (I wrote most of the article on them), but Paul Whiteman was a fraud and his orchestra played nothing like jazz. I will be replacing these paragraphs after some additional research. Musical influence is much more important than record sales. Ortolan88
"Musical influence is much more important than record sales." I agree completely! Don't misconstrue what I said. The earlier version said "Armstrong-Oliver recordings of 1923 were the first jazz most of the world had ever heard." This is wrong; most of the world unfortunately did not hear them at all. I wish they did! But alas in the early '20s the public at large were first hearing jazz (or commercial products marketed as "jazz") from the likes of Whiteman, Ted Lewis, Red Nichols... and even for African American bands, groups like Wilber Sweatman and Johnny Dunn were selling more records at the time. That's why I changed the paragraph. -- Infrogmation.


78 collectors know that "scat" singing was recorded a number of times before Armstrong's "Heebie Jeebies" (including by Red Nichols a few years earlier and by Gene Greene in the 1910s).

The trumpet was a lead instrument in jazz before Armstrong; the trumpet or cornet was the usual lead instrument in the early New Orleans style. Armstrong's stylistic change was to make it a soloing instrument.-- Infrogmation

I cut the sentance "He learned music in a reform school." since that understates the importance of what he learned from older musicians, and the subject is dealt with in more detail further down in the article. -- Infrogmation 18:39 Jan 20, 2003 (UTC)

I removed the misinformation just added alledging the Armstrong was born in Storyville. (Jane Alley is a good distance from the District). -- Infrogmation 23:18 Jan 31, 2003 (UTC)

I know nothing of Tad Jones's research, but if the only source for Armstrong's "actual" birthdate is "church documents from when his grandmother took him to be baptised", then I think there is still room for a bit of doubt. I once phoned up a relative of mine to wish her a happy birthday, having found her date of birth (21st Jan 1919) on a transcription of her baptism record in the OIOC. But she replied that it wasn't her actual birthday for another four days: she kept 21st Jan as her "official" birthday (written on forms and so on), because that was the date she had documentation for, but she had been told by her parents that she was actually born on 25th Jan, the priest having made an error when he filled it in on the baptism record. -- Oliver P. 20:31 Feb 10, 2003 (UTC)

The Catholic Baptismal documentation was the "smoking gun", but Jones has uncovered quite a bit of other collaborative evidence; at one of the New Orleans International Music Colloquiums a couple of years ago Jones gave an hour long lecture on Armstrong's birthdate alone. As far as I know, all the serious Armstrong and early jazz scholars accept this. Perhaps we need a seperate article on Armstrong's birthday? It seems the subject that keeps getting the most attention here. -- Infrogmation 22:36 Feb 10, 2003 (UTC)
Well, that's why I changed it to "currently accepted". :) I must admit that I'm terribly uncultured, and more interested in boring old facts like dates and things than in his music... -- Oliver P. 00:50 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Armstrong's Date of Birth

According to various Web sites, researcher Tad Jones found Louis Armstrong's baptismal record at Sacred Heart of Jesus Church, 139 South Lopez Street Street in New Orleans. I have examined many such records, and they are generally accepted to be accurate. They are obviously accurate as to the date of baptism. It is possible, of course, that the priest was given the wrong date of birth, or that he wrote it down wrong. But this is possible with any document. For my money, short of viewing a copy of this document myself, I'd go with the date reported by Jones. Regards, Peter J. Curry, e-mail: ka2ttu@aol.com

...transformed jazz from barrelhouse dance music into a popular art form.
I had no idea what 'barrelhouse' meant. So I looked it up at m-w:
1 : a cheap drinking and usually dancing establishment
2 : a strident, uninhibited, and forcefully rhythmic style of jazz or blues
Perhaps it should say something less obscure, and possibly confusing considering it is a style of jazz, that omits that word. Maybe just replace 'barrelhouse dance music' with 'the music of cheap bars and dance halls'?

[edit] mv from Legacy section

This IMO does not belong under his legacy:

The Louis Armstrong New Orleans International Airport in Kenner, Louisiana and serving New Orleans, Louisiana, is named after Armstrong. Also, the secondary stadium court at the USTA National Tennis Center in Flushing Meadows Park in Queens, the site of the US Open, is named for him.

-- Viajero 09:42, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] mv from Legacy section

This IMO does not belong under his legacy:

The Louis Armstrong New Orleans International Airport in Kenner, Louisiana and serving New Orleans, Louisiana, is named after Armstrong. Also, the secondary stadium court at the USTA National Tennis Center in Flushing Meadows Park in Queens, the site of the US Open, is named for him.

The articles on those topics can mention, if necessary, that these places where named after him. -- Viajero 09:43, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Then again, a "Tributes" paragraph could be formed. --Rover Segundo 23:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "charismatic"

I don't see any reason to link adjectives in the first place, and particularly not in this case. The only thing in the charisma article beyond a dictionary definition is a discussion of Christian charismatics; it's misleading to link to this since Armstrong was not, to public knowledge, this type of charismatic. Jgm 20:38, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Indeed. I was tempted to delete anon's dubious linking of the term altogether myself. Looks good. -- Infrogmation 20:46, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] revert

I reverted 2 small recent changes. One removed the photographer's credit from the photo. I'm not sure of our use of this photo, is credit required here? The other was the removal of the link to krewe after the Zulu Social Aid & Pleasure Club reference, with the comment "slight technicality, but glaring--Zulu Social Aid and Pleasure Club is not a krewe". It is commonly refered to as a "krewe" in the sence that it is an organization that puts on a New Orleans Carnival parade. If this usage is incorrect, an explanation in the Zulu article &/or the krewe article might be appropriate. -- Infrogmation 15:17, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Because the image is contended to be fair use on the image description page (which also mentions Gottleib), I just took the photographer's name out. (That is, we don't have express permission to use the photo, nor any particular restrictions on what has to be in the caption.) Anyway, to address your concern I worked the photographer's name into the caption I wrote earlier today so that the caption would comport with the guidelines at Wikipedia:Captions. -- ke4roh

[edit] Possible POV issues

Here's a couple of paragraphs from the Music section of the article:

In his early years, Armstrong was best known for his virtuosity with the cornet and trumpet. The greatest trumpet playing of his early years can be heard on his Hot Five and Hot Seven records. The improvisations which he made on these records of New Orleans jazz standards and popular songs of the day, to the present time stack up brilliantly alongside those of any other later jazz performer. The older generation of New Orleans jazz musicians often referred to their improvisations as "variating the melody"; Armstrong's improvisations were daring and sophisticated for the time while often subtle and melodic. He often essentially re-composed pop-tunes he played, making them more interesting. Armstrong's playing is filled with joyous, inspired original melodies, creative leaps, and subtle relaxed or driving rhythms. The genius of these creative passages is matched by Armstrong's playing technique, honed by constant practice, which extended the range, tone and capabilities of the trumpet. In these records, Armstrong almost single-handedly created the role of the jazz soloist, taking what was essentially a collective folk music and turning it into an art form with tremendous possibilities for individual expression.
Armstrong's work in the 1920s shows him playing at the outer limits of his abilities. The Hot 5 records, especially, often have minor flubs and missed notes, which do little to detract from listening enjoyment since the energy of the spontaneous performance comes through. By the mid 1930s Armstrong achieved a smooth assurance, knowing exactly what he could do and carrying out his ideas with perfectionism.

I have bolded the phrases/sentences I feel are opinion and not fact. Does anyone else agree? Johnleemk | Talk 16:45, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree that these passages could use some NPOV improvement. I think, however, that there are some legitimate bits of fact in there as well, especially in the last example. We should give thought to rewriting those portions. -- Infrogmation 19:11, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
These statements are not POV, but general consensus among those who know the history of jazz, musicians and scholars alike. The Hot Five and Seven recordings are seminal events in the annals of recorded jazz, and are literally to jazz what the Homeric epics are to Western literature. Their importance cannot be overstated, and any superlatives regarding their genius are most likely understatement rather than anything else.PJtP (talk) 22:20, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] hypochondria/laxatives

Thanks for your work in improving the Armstrong article. I do have a concern that in your generally good edit to "streamline flabby and misspelt para" (I fear such flab and misspelling is likely my fault, sorry) some relevent information might have been lost. Specifically, that Armstrong thought that laxatives were good for preserving one's health in general, not just for losing weight. (There were other points as well, such as valuing the practice taught him by his mother. No doubt much more could be written about Armstrong and "Pluto water", Swiss Kriss, etc.) Perhaps we could discuss on Talk:Louis Armstrong? Thanks, -- Infrogmation 13:09, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Here is the para as it was:

Armstrong was well known as an enthusastic advocate and user of laxatives as a means of preserving health, a traditional folk treatment he learned from his mother. He gave out sample packets of herbal laxitives to friends, fans, and other celebrities he met. He wrote about using laxitives as part of a weight loss plan, and published diet charts under the title Lose Weight the Satchmo Way.

And after I'd finished with it:

Armstrong was greatly concerned with his health and bodily functions. He made frequent use of laxatives as a means of controlling his weight, a practice he advocated both to personal acquaintances and in the diet plans he published under the title Lose Weight the Satchmo Way.

Thanks Infrogmation for your points. I'm not an expert on Armstrong and if there are others around that know for a fact that all the above is true (and ideally can quote some sources) then I'll bow to their superior knowledge. But I do wonder whether there's a risk of going a bit over the top in terms of minute detail on this one very small point, and unbalancing an article which, although good, could still use plenty of beefing-up in more important areas both personal and musical. We don't want to end up giving the impression that the editors of the text were just as fascinated by Armstrong's bodily functions as he was himself.

Specifically, is it really true that laxative abuse was a "traditional folk treatment" in Armstrong's culture? For a start the use of the word "treatment" is questionable where no actual illness exists. I doubt that medical opinion then or now regarded routine laxative use as part of a normal healthy lifestyle.

Incidentally, on my earlier use of the word "hypochondriac" (now deleted), that was the word chosen by Humphrey Lyttleton on a recent BBC Radio 4 programme about Armstrong. I didn't say he was one, just that he had that reputation. It's probably a matter of opinion at what point a trumpeter's natural concern for his lips and teeth, and for his general health, becomes obsessive, but there seems little doubt that Armstrong was very much interested in his body and how it needed to be actively managed.

Harry 13:48, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I seem to recall that Louis recorded a song with a title something like "Heat always travels to the colder from the hotter", and I can't help thinking that it came from some animated cartoon (Disney?". Does this ring a bell with anyone?--202.124.115.216 09:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References?

The term bibliography is ambiguous. It can either mean a list of works about a subject or a lsit of sources consulted to fact check or add material to an article. The distinction is very important, so if someone knows which is the case for each work please split them into a references section and a further reading section or rename the section one way or the other. If no one knows, I guess it will need to be named further reading unless someone can get a hold of these works or others and fact check the article. See Wikipedia:Cite sources and Wikipedia:Verifiability for more. Thanks - Taxman 18:08, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Waifs' home

User:Infrogmation changed "...the New Orleans Home for Colored Waifs, where he had been sent for general delinquency, though it is widely believed that he was sent there after firing a pistol into the air at a New Year's Eve celebration"

to: "...where he had been sent multiple times for general delinquency, most notably for a long term after firing a pistol into the air at a New Year's Eve celebration"

with the comment: "Waif's home: no need to say "widely believed" when it was public record"

But is it definitely known for a fact that firing a pistol was the reason for his stay in the Home, as the sentence implies? Can we have some references showing that this is accepted as fact, in an area that abounds in folklore and unverifiable rumours? After all, plenty of people think it's a fact that Buddy Bolden was a barber, or that Bessie Smith bled to death while being denied admission to a White hopital -- there may not be a shred of evidence but it's certainly "widely believed" (which in itself is interesting information). Flapdragon 15:31, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Armstrong himself told the story in his "My Life In New Orleans" autobiography and several interviews, and it was in the police report records, and mentioned in the police report sectoin of at least one of the local papers at the time. (Sorry I don't have a specific reference on the latter-- University and most public libraries and archives are still closed here in New Orleans at present-- but I recall seeing copies of the original clippings at various conferences, and at least one, including such details as the arresting officers etc, made its way into a PBS tv doccumentary on Armstrong's early life that Tad Jones had some input on about a decade ago. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 19:23, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
By gosh, I just happened to run into Tad Jones! The expert confirms the pistol incident is documented from period materials. No doubt we can learn all about it in great detail whenever he finishes his book. -- Infrogmation 22:51, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Great. Have added a mention of police records in order to give the anecdote a bit more substance. No disrespect to Armstrong's memory but the fact of something being mentioned in someone's autobiography doesn't necessarily prove it happened! Flapdragon 00:18, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Samples

were removed by anon 69.249.246.42. I did not see reason here and rv.Mikereichold 02:11, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not a Freemason

According to the Grand Lodge of British Columbia there is no evidence that he was in fact a Freemason. Dwain 18:53, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Daniel Louis Armstrong

Isn't it Daniel Louis Armstrong rather than Louis Daniel Armstrong? Flapdragon 11:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Viper

Nothing at all about his use of "Gage"? That's strange. Here is some info http://www.cleartest.com/testinfo/louis_armstrong.htm as I don't have time to write it just now... The Real Walrus 16:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of "Louis"

In the 1970s and through most of the 1980s, I always heard it pronounced "Looie." Then is started to change so that now I almost always hear it as "Lewis." Which did the man himself use and/or prefer to be introduced as? Did the change come from people who thought "Looie" wasn't respectful enough? Dvd Avins 22:39, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The short answer is that he used both. I don't know which he "prefered", but there are documations of both, ranging from the phonetic "Lewie" written down by the census taker in 1920 to his clearly saying "Lew-Is" in the film of "Hello Dolly". -- Infrogmation 23:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
A few years back at the U.S. Open (maybe 2001?), during a match in the Louis Armstrong Stadium, Tony Bennett came to see the commentators on the USA network and told them that it would mean a lot to Louis Armstrong's family if they would stop pronouncing it "Looie Armstrong" and start saying "Louis Armstrong." Since then, almost all of the commentators use this pronunciation. --Faith healer 19:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
The assertion in the introduction that Armstrong preferred the pronunciation "Lewis" is contradicted by the source it cites (an interview with Louie Bellson, who worked with Armstrong). I'm about to change it to "Looie", but if anyone has any more information, do keep talking about it. Echobeats 00:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Why is his name listed here at "louis" when in both his autobiography, most autographs, his draft card and drivers' license, his signature is very clearly "Lewis"? His birth certificate says "Lewis" too, so I'm confused as to why the Wiki entry says "Louis." 198.135.224.110 (talk) 17:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Joe Glaser

Removing the link to Joe Glaser - the article doesn't deal with Armstrong's manager but some guitar maker. The "right" Joe sounds like he was a colourful character, deserving an article. Until then though... CCooke 18:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] William Armstrong

Removed the link to William Armstrong, it leads to a disambiguation page, none of which are the William Armstrong that is mentioned in the article.Zapatista comeau 00:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I noticed that a while ago. Long before I started editing wiki. Thanks for fixing it. Iseebias

[edit] Karnofskys

I just heard a remark on the radio on American Routes that because of the Karnofskys' generosity, he wore a Star of David around his neck for the rest of his life. Does anyone know if there is something citable on this? Might be worth adding to the mention of the Karnofskys, shows a closer bond that might be gleaned from the current wording. - Jmabel | Talk 05:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Joe Peterson? I think someone has tampered with this article... 69.139.20.101 03:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)ryl, 2/12/07

217.132.237.1 17:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC) Hello, there seems to be an error, in the year of his birth. It reads 1901 in the article but 1898 in the side caption... Anyone know which is the the right one could fix it?

It's fixed now, thanks for pointing it out. Robotman1974 17:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vaudeville

I'm currently working on the List of vaudeville performers. One of my main sources includes Armstrong as a vaudeville performer, but includes no other information on his performances. I've added Armstrong to the list and included him in the Category:Vaudeville performers, but after checking Grove's and Grove's Dictionary of Jazz as well as some biographies, I can find nothing else that puts him on the vaudeville stage. Does anyone have any information that he did perform in vaudeville? I would be most appreciative! Thanks! *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 15:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

He did at least one childhood performance at Iroquois Theater, a "colored" vaudeville/cinema in New Orleans. After leaving NOLA in '22 he was playing at dance halls and cabaret shows. I think it is may be stretching some to label him a vaudeville performer, but how wide is your definition? -- Infrogmation 18:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
With some exceptions, I'm limiting vaudeville to the 51 years between 1881 (when Tony Pastor opened his first vaudeville show in New York to 1932 when the Palace Theatre held its last 2-a-day vaudeville show. The performances must be on the American (including Canadian) vaudeville stage and the performance must have been either scheduled through a vaudeville circuit or in a recognized vaudeville theatre. While the criteria is fairly loose, I'm not sure if this performance would be covered.
I actually have one book that specifically lists Armstrong as performing in vaudeville, but it lists him as part of a list of names and no further information is given. The Wikipedia article on the Theater Owners Booking Association or TOBA as it was known, also states that Armstrong was scheduled through their booking office. However, I can't seem to find any other source (yet) that backs this up. In fact, I'm running into the same problem with Fats Waller, though I haven't yet checked any of his bios. Thank you very much for your help! *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 16:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tour de France

I am extremely angry while typing this. I have just noticed that KNcyu38 (now AldeBaer) has sent me a message saying the following. "Please do not add unhelpful and unconstructive information to Wikipedia, as you did to Louis Armstrong. Your edits appear to be vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 01:53, 1 April 2007 (UTC)".

I will try to assume that an innocent error was made and not attack AldeBaer personally. (I am sitting here with steam coming out of my ears so this is pretty difficult).

The fact is that some weeks ago an idiot added information to this page saying that Louis Armstrong took part in the Tour de France. Obvious vandalism. By taking out such stupid vandalism I appear to be accused of the same thing. This is why I am absolutely furious. The changes that I made were to take out "unhelpful and unconstructive information".

People who try to correct vandalism are going to be wary of doing so in the future if they are going to be incorrectly accused of doing the same thing.

Allan - NYC.

[edit] Louis Armstrong's Concert Tour to Tanganyika

In or about 1964/1965 Louis Armstrong and his band did a couple of concerts in Dar es Salaam, Tanganyika. The country is now called Tanzania. My parents were involved with the Round Table and assisted in the organisation of the tour. Louis apparently did at least two concerts, one expensive one for the wealthy and another for the people. I have a concert programme somewhere in my archives that was signed by Louis and a few of his band members. At least one of the concerts was for charity.

I will try and dig it up.

Do you think it would be a useful addition to the article?

--Tiucsib 18:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Floyd Levin pic

Is it just me, or does that picture look like a Photoshop job? (Hallander 01:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC))

Not at all. -- Infrogmation (talk)

I agree that it looks a bit weird, but I don't think it's a Photoshop job. For one thing, if you look at the glare from the camera flash reflected on both Levin's and Armstrong's faces, it's in the exact same places on both (cheekbones and centre of forehead), suggesting that the two men were each illuminated by the same light source. I agree that you could fake that on Photoshop if you were seriously good, but if the supposed artist were that good, why would he or she have left Armstrong's right arm looking so bizarrely foreshortened? Anyone who can do the subtle stuff so well wouldn't have screwed up on the obvious thing. It's just one of those photos that looks mysteriously wrong, IMO. Lexo (talk) 15:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I deleted it , because it seems odd to have a photo which makes Levin as prominent as Armstrong, absent some evidence Levin was influential on Armstrong or somehow important to his career. Edison (talk) 04:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
If it was free licensed, please undelete it and move it to Commons! It may not belong in the article, but having another free licensed photo of Armstrong availible on Commons is good, and the photo may be useful on Wikipedia at such time as Wikipedia gets an articl eon writer Levin. -- Infrogmation (talk) 21:07, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Ah, I see you did not delete the image at all, thank you. It is already in Commons, and already in use on our existing Floyd Levin article. -- Infrogmation (talk) 21:11, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Transformed jazz

Armstrong was a charismatic, innovative performer whose musical skills and bright personality transformed jazz from a rough regional dance music into a popular art form.

Cute, but wrong. Armstrongs' impact on early jazz was a breaktrough in soloing. His incredibly influential solos were the main stepping stone for the shift from collective ensemble polyphony to expressive improvised solos. But most certainly he did not transform jazz from 'rough regional dance music' into a 'popular art form', whatever that is supposed to mean.

Jazz was, by Armstrong's time already popular enough, mostly by means of incredibly well selling records of the Original Dixieland Jazz Band, which, admittedly, was rough and frenetic dance music with barnyard animal imitations, but being successfully sold Americawide, it was hardly regional, even notwithstanding the fact that jazz, by the 1920s, was spread more or less throughout the whole of America.

Furthermore, as detested as generally Whiteman is, his ensemble's music was far from being rough, Whiteman mainly capitalizing on the then fresh dance craze in "high society", playing dance music (JAZZ INCLUDED) with a big band of extremely capable musicians who set the standard for all future jazz big bands to come. All in all, the jazz that Whiteman's ensemble did play was very far from rough, Whiteman's main ambition being (well, earning dollars didn't hurt either) elevating jazz into music to listen to, not music to dance to, his band's premiere performance of Rhapsody in Blue by and large fulfilling it from his point of view. In any case, his performances were not in the least rough. The numbers they played that were truly jazz, not some form of social dance or another, the "hot numbers", were executed on the same high level of musicianship as any other arrangement they performed.

Neither did jazz cease to be dancing music after Armstrong's appearance - the swing era jazz is not exactly comprised of contemplative compositions, it's driving and constant rhytm being there for the dance. Also, the implied claim that jazz, prior to Armstrong, was not an art form is incredibly bigoted and far beyond neutral.

Therefore, I am changing the horrendously misleading line that resides at the top into this:

Armstrong was a charismatic, innovative performer whose inspired improvised soloing was the main influence for a fundamental change in jazz, shifting it's focus from collective melodic playing, often arranged in one way or another, to the solo player and improvised soloing.

Note that I used "collective melodic playing" instead of "ensemble polyphony" to simplify things. By "arranged in a way" I mean either note-for-note arrangements (like in Whiteman's band) or collective memorization of a piece with little or none subsequent improvization (like King Oliver's band, Jelly Roll Morton's band or the O. D. J. B.). Of course, outright claims that earlier jazz bands did not improvise would be preposterous, but improvisation was certainly not regarded as a defining element in early jazz, so it is fair to assume that Louis' constant improvising, from his days with Fate Marable onwards, had a great impact on the perception of what jazz performances should be like, and did indeed inititiate a change in what was later deemed to be of key importance in jazz.

He also acquired recognition and influence already as a cornetist, switching to trumpet somewhat later. --Rover Segundo 00:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Your change in the article seems reasonable to me. Thanks for your detailed explanation. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 00:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I like the change as well, good job.71.238.71.180 01:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Personal life

Separating Satchmo's personal life from his carreer as a musician would help the article a great deal. Per instance, the paragraph "Early Carreer" begins with information about his personal life, first wife and his children, needlessly obscuring infromation on his early carreer, which was supposed to be the subject matter. Creating a paragraph titled "Personal life" would keep all information in tidy, meaningful clusters. I suggest that someone who knows more about the man's personal life than me does it, lest I screw it up. --Rover Segundo 23:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

There is very little here on critical and scholarly reception of his work, and some of what little there is lacks citation. For what it's worth, Gary Giddins, "How Come Jazz Isn't Dead", p. 39–55 in Eric Weisbard, ed., This is Pop, Harvard University Press, 2004. ISBN 0-674-01321-2 (cloth), ISBN 0-674-01344-1 (paper) cites an interesting negative remark by Rudi Blesh, a minority view but one that should probably be represented, saying, effectively, that from the time he left King Oliver, Armstrong was doing something other than jazz; the relevant passage is on p. 42 of the cited work, and an endnote cites "Rudi Blesh, Shining Trumpets: A History of Jazz (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1958 [1946])". Here's the passage:

"Printed scores are not a part of jazz," historian Rudi Blesh declared. Armstrong, he said, had abandoned jazz; "West End Blues" "narrowly misses banality," with its "dark romanticism foreign to jazz." Ellington's "tea dansant music" had no jazz content whatsoever.

I know that Giddins has written a book on Armstrong (Satchmo), and I see that it's not cited at all here. I haven't read it, but I've read other things of Giddins', and I imagine it is well worth a read. If someone is serious about working on this article, they should probably track it down. - Jmabel | Talk 18:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

  • That Blesh quote is just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Hot Five and Hot Seven Armstrong isn't jazz? Ellington isn't jazz? What a moron. It may indeed be a minority view, but not one that in my view is worth representing, as I've never heard any other serious jazz critic say anything so tin-eared and idiotic. Lexo (talk) 15:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Believed birthdate

I have asked for a citation to the claim "Armstrong lived his entire life believing that he was born on July 04, 1900", which I think is dubious and should be removed. Certainly he gave that date in a number of public interviews, but the facts that he sometimes confessed he was unsure of the exact date to serious researchers and used "1901" in some of his government doccuments seem to contradict the statement. -- Infrogmation 15:38, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

If anyone wishes to keep the current wording please provide a citation soon. Otherwise I shall plan to rewrite that sentence next week. -- Infrogmation 13:50, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
As an anon has removed the citation request more than once, I have gone ahead and reworded. If you disagree, please provide information and/or discussion here. -- Infrogmation 03:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Armstrong

a long term after (as police records show) firing his stepfather's pistol- I don't like the fact that the bracketed part is before the verb--Dominik92 18:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trumpet in Time Capsule

I would like to have the following removed:

On December 31, 1999, US President Bill Clinton announced that Armstrong's trumpet was among several items of national memorabilia that were to be interred in a Millennial time capsule to be opened 100 years later.[38]

It's simply not true -- check http://clinton4.nara.gov/Initiatives/Millennium/capsule/burns.html

Armstrong's trumpets are on display at the Louis Armstrong House Museum. I think someone talked metaphorically about "the sound of Louis Armstrong's trumpet" being included in the capsule, and it got distorted to "his trumpet being in the capsule," which it isn't.

149.4.110.62 (talk) 21:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] St-louis blues

in the Grammy Hall of Fame, st-louis blues is classified under the genre of jazz ( single) but st-louis blues is a blues song. The Grammy hall of fame is the source of the error, but i think the genre should be corrected on this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boibn (talk • contribs) 18:49, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What samples?

The "Samples" section has three items; two of them have no links at all and the third has a blind link. May I suggest that the section be removed? 83.70.164.71 (talk) 21:44, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll delete the section. Binksternet (talk) 22:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] songs removals

The list below discography was removed because it was a poorly formated, incomplete and pointless since 2 lines above there were links to both discography and songs categories listing all the important items. -- m:drini 18:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Louis armstrong

when he was a child, he was poor —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.179.245.143 (talk) 20:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)