Talk:Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou

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Contents

[edit] Title of the article

[edit] Discussion

I am totally at loss why a guy who lives in Spain and uses Spanish, and on the other hand, is pretender to monarchy (in which context English name forms are used, not local languages) has this article with French name Louis-Alphonse, Duc d'Anjou. I would expect to find him under Louis Alfonso, Duke of Anjou 217.140.193.123 16:23, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Or Luis-Alfonso? Morhange

This is English Wikipedia. As a French version is used of him, and a Spanish, we should choose neither of them, but use English. 217.140.193.123 08:49, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I will support this move (or Louis Alphonse). The present form is also incorrect French (duc should be lower-case; cf. the French WP article); but WP:UE makes clear that it should read Duke of Anjou anyway.Septentrionalis 16:14, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Oppose - Louis Alfonso is no more "English" than Louis-Alphonse, perhaps less so. The most English form would be Lewis Alphonzo, and that's clearly absurd. We should use Duke of Anjou, cf. List of Counts and Dukes of Anjou, WP:UE. It is most consistent with use elsewhere in WP to use non-English versions of royal names in circumstances like this one where the name is not particularly in use in English (cf. Alfonso, where numerous Alphonses, Affonsos, and Alfonsos are listed). This applies even more so to a name which is double. In addition, both Luis Alfonso and Louis-Alphonse are much more common in English than Louis Alfonso. Google gives 243 hits for "Louis-Alphonse"+ pretender -Wikipedia [1], 736 hits for "Luis Alfonso" + pretender -Wikipedia [2], and only 30 for "Louis Alfonso" + pretender -Wikipedia [3], many of which also contain Louis-Alphonse. The page should be either at Luis Alfonso, Duke of Anjou or Louis-Alphonse, Duke of Anjou, but not at this proposed combination name. This would be the equivalent of referring to Frederick Wilhelm III or Vittorio Emanuel! Satyadasa 14:27, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Still opposed, but to the idea that he should be listed under this name at all. He has no title, and to give him a title in the article name itself is not NPOV. His father was also called Duke of Anjou by legitimists, but we have him under his given name Alfonso de Borbón Dampierre. The most famous pretenders in the English-speaking world are under James Francis Edward Stuart, Charles Edward Stuart, and Henry Benedict Stuart, not James III, Charles III and Henry IX, not the Old Pretender, the Young Pretender, and Cardinal-Duke of York; we have Clemente Domínguez y Gómez for the sedevacantist antipope Pope Gregory XVII. Of course we should have a number of redirects, including from Louis-Alphonse, Duke of Anjou, etc., just as there is already one from Louis XX, his other non-title, but his name is Luis Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez-Bordiú Satyadasa 09:18, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

This is a very interesting argument, which I will have to consider. I'm not sure I understand it fully. Noone supports moving this article to Louis XX, as far as I know; and we have Philippe, Comte de Paris and many other French titles used because of grants by extinguished dynasties. Are you arguing that they should be treated by surname too? Who is Duke of Anjou, if he is not? Septentrionalis 19:53, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, the Orléanist claimant seems to have given the title to his nephew. No one is the Duke of Anjou in the same way that someone once was the Duke of Anjou, because of course there is no French crown. Henri, Comte de Paris, Duc de France sued our subject here for using it, and lost, but not because French courts decided for the Orléanist point of view… the view seems to have been that the Fifth Republic has no jurisdiction over titles that haven't really existed since Louis-Philippe:
It is right in my opinion that all titles given only by a claimant (for example Charles Philippe d'Orléans, who got as said the Anjou title) should not be treated as "authorised" because there is obviously no french crown who could grant such titles. But titles given by a reigning monarch should be fully accepted here mainly in republics who accept noble titles as part of the name (like Germany, France..). So the title Duke of Anjou (see below) is an authorised title, because it was granted by Louis XIV for his grandchild Philip V of Spain ans has never ceased to exist (it has never merged with the french crown) and thus the eldest male descendent of Philip V (today Louis Alphonso of Bourbon, althoug it could be argued that Don Jaime disclaimed also that title and thus Juan Carlos I of Spain is Duke of Anjou, but I have never read that this was the case, he only disclaimed his rights on the spanish crown) has the right to legally hold this title. (Xerxes M.F. 27.8.2006)
L'irrecevabilité tiendrait dans cette optique à l'inexistence du titre de Duc d'Anjou. Les plaideurs se battraient pour rien. (The inadmissibility is accordingly due to the non-existence of the title Duke of Anjou. The litigants fight for nothing). [4].
Of course, this means that moves of a number of other pages would be in order, not because the French state says there are no titles, but because it's not NPOV to use the titles in the title of the page where there is controversy. No one else but Franz could claim to be Duke of Bavaria. Satyadasa 10:14, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
The second choice (in Satyadasa's original post) should be Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou; when French names are Englished, the hyphens are dropped. I would agree to that; I proposed Louis Alfonso because it appeared to be the most popular in the pre-existing discussion. WP:RM could be clearer. Septentrionalis 18:09, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
The hyphen should stay: Louis-Philippe of France, Louis-Antoine, Duke of Angoulême, Prince Ferdinand-Philippe of France. Create a disambiguation page for those who assume no hyphen. The hyphen will not confuse anyone, and it is used in English, for contemporary Francophones: Jean Michel Jarre, those with French-derived names: Jean-Michel Basquiat, and even in English names: Mary-Kate Olsen. The hyphen is English, and the article should be Louis-Alphonse, Duke of Anjou Satyadasa 02:14, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Support but I prefer a redirect from the old one still. Louis-Alphonse is named thus because he is the pretender to the French throne by the Legitimists and Anjou is in France. He is not Spanish because he had been denied his right to the Spanish throne by his grandfather. English, though, would make the most sense since this is and English encyclopedia. His titles can be displayed after his English name. My final conclusion is that Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou is the most logical and most in line with other similar French names.
--Whaleyland 03:17, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Oppose If that's the title he is known under, keep it that way. There is no need to translate everything into english. Gryffindor 23:47, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Actually, the French form is Louis-Alphonse, duc d'Anjou (note lower case). See the French wikipedia, linked to from main page. And why not follow WP:UE? Septentrionalis 16:42, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
      • Actually, the French WP uses Louis de Bourbon (1974-)[5]
        • So it does; I'm not sure whether it moved or whether I checked another Duke of Anjou. For the point of usage, however, see the text of fr:Liste des comtes et ducs d'Anjou and fr:Jean Ier de Bourgogne. Septentrionalis 19:24, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
          • That's an inconsistency on the French WP. fr:Liste des comtes et ducs d'Anjou lists the claimant dukes under Titres de courtoisie, but fr:Titre de noblesse makes it clear that accepted titles are ones that have been recognized by the Third, Fourth, and Fifth Republics, and these are usually rather less grandiose titles, like Marquis de Montalembert than these claimants to the throne take, and are not and have not been recognized by the French state. Also note again the legal dispute above. If we use his legal name and point to it through all sorts of disambigs, we will be more consistent than if we choose any of these variants Satyadasa 20:37, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
            • You mistake the point under discussion here, which is simply that Louis-Alphonse, Duc d'Anjou, with a capital D is flat wrong in either language. Septentrionalis 20:44, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
              • Of course it should be Duke of Anjou, the question is whether or not that title should be in the title at all. Why change it to this if it would be better to change it to something else that would both be more correct and avoid the language issue altogether? Satyadasa 21:44, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Consensus

There are four questions here, and seven editors:

  1. First Name
    • One suggestion of Luis, otherwise Louis.
  2. Hyphen
    • Two for, four against
  3. Second name
    • Two for Alfonso; otherwise Alphonse. I would tolerate Alfonso if it made consensus; but I don't prefer it, and Satyadasa's argument of consistency should be considered.
  4. Title
    • Four for Duke of Anjou, one for no title, one for Duc d'Anjou [sic].

Is Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou consensus out of all this?

Note: the question is not, "is that right?"; this is, "would you, as a neutral closer, close that way?"

  • I Support the name Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou as the official Wikipedia page title, with the others acting as redirects.
    --Whaleyland 21:20, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose — seven editors throwing out at least a dozen different possibilities for his name is not a consensus. Satyadasa 11:22, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Support I think it shows consensus on each point separately, and there is no objection (so far) of inconsistency. Septentrionalis 19:19, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discision

Page moved. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 01:25, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Morganatic marriage

According to the article concerning his father, Louis-Alphonse was born into a morganatic marriage. So, how can he rightfully claim the French throne? --Anglius 20:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, France has never been keen on enforcing the status loss in that way. Earlier French dynasts have married under high aristocracy, and it did not hinder their descendants' succession rights. Morganatic marriage is very much a German concept. Shilkanni 11:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Please explain this to me: since his parents marriage was annulled, why is he still considered to be the legitimate heir?

Annulment does not always (and now rarely does) result in the illegitimacy of a child. Charles 21:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
He was born a legitimate child, during the period the marriage was legitimate. Changes afterwards in the marriage situation does not affect this. Stijn Calle 12:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HRH in opening line.

I am not sure why Terrence Darnell thinks removing HRH from the opening line of this article constitutes vandalism. Certainly, the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) under the heading Honorific prefixes states: "(3) Styles shall not be used to open articles on royalty and popes. Thus the article on Pope Benedict XVI shall not begin 'His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI . . . ' nor the article on Queen Victoria begin 'Her Majesty Queen Victoria . . .'" It would appear beyond dispute that this article should not begin with HRH which, according to wikipedia, stands for "His Royal Highness." I also note that the HRH was removed from this article previously and then reinstated by someone. Is there some type of campaign to promote this person? Whatever the case, HRH in the opening lines is clearly against Wikipedia style guidelines. Accordingly, I am removing the HRH.

--ThomasK107 07:00, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The vandalism was not in removing HRH from the opening line of the article, but it was in the multiple lies full of hate written by the IP 205.188.116.130 in his/her edit [6].

--Terence Darnell 19:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the following sentence should be included in the article: "He is recognised as His Royal Highness by the French Minister of Justice." Nobility titles ("comte", "duc",...) are only recognized by the French Republic as a part of the name (and included as such on official documents), but "H.R.H" is not one of those titles. Refer to this offical court transcript of a dispute between two former pretendants to the throne: http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/proces2.htm, and note that "Son Altesse Royale" (His Royal Highness) never appears in the document.

Mrglass123 (talk) 00:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)mrglass123

I have no evidence regarding Louis Alphonse himself - which is why today I added the {{Fact}} tag. However, in the case of his father, uncle, and grandmother, it is certain that they are/were recognised with the style "Son Altesse Royale" by the French Republic. "S.A.R." appears on the French national identity cards of all three. Noel S McFerran (talk) 01:23, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean exactly by "recognised"? Except this possible mention on their identity card (themselves less official than the 'Etat-civil' anyway), this title certainly never appears on official documents or laws. Again, refer to the court transcript linked above, during this dispute between two would-be-Kings, never once is SAR (HRH) used. Saying he is "recognised" as "His Royal Highness" by the State also implies that royalty still has a place in the French legal system, which is obviously false.
"Recognised" means that the HRH style is used by the French Republic on a legal document that it issues for the purpose identification of individuals. You cannot "except this possible mention on their identity card": that is to ignore the kind of act on the part of the French Republic that is intended and is accepted as the nation's legal designation for French residents and/or citizens. It need not be the only designation which the Republic uses in order for it to be an official and/or legal designation. Howsoever "obviously false" it may appear for the French Republic to recognise "royalty", if in fact the Republic does so -- it does so. The court's ruling on the Anjou vs Orleans lawsuit does accord the title of "Prince" to parties of the suit, even if not HRH. But given that neither's princely title derives from any non-French fount of honour, how is that usage any less indicative of their "royalty" than HRH? Until 1950, the heads of France's former reigning dynasties and their heirs were banished from the Republic. That law was enforced by expelling some of those persons from French soil several times since the 1880s. That law and each enforcement thereof constituted "recognition" of royalty -- the more so because the reason for the banishment was those dynasties' potential for arousing public repudiation of the republic and restoration of monarchy. French law does not deny the existence of "royalty", only of monarchy. At the moment. Lethiere (talk) 08:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Well this definition of "recognised" is far-fetched at best. Unless you can prove Louis Alphonse has special "royal" powers or rights recognized by the French Republic, I will edit the page to clarify the amount of "recognition" he has: a possible title on his Identity Card (a fact that still has not been proven in the citations). In particular, if you have any evidence of current French laws barring his family from France, then again please provide a proof; but I don't think any such law still existsMrglass123 (talk) 01:56, 12 December 2007 (UTC)Mrglass123

[edit] Chambord is a place

Just for the record:

  • Chambord is a place and NOT a person.
  • Henri Comte de Chambord/Henry Count of Chambord or Comte de Chambord/Count of Chambord or Henri/Henry are/were persons.

Str1977 (smile back) 08:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Chambord is a place and a person. "Comte de Chambord" can legitimately be shortened to "Chambord." A good percentage of British peers' peerage titles are places, but we still call them "Norfolk," "Castlereagh," "Salisbury," and so forth. john k 12:44, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
John is correct. Particularly with individuals such as the Count of Chambord, the use of the territorial designation to refer to the person itself is not uncommon. Charles 20:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Genealogical confusion

It is my understanding that the French crown cannot be inherited through the female line, yet it appears that Louis Alphonse descends from Louis XIV through Queen Isabella II of Spain. Either I'm mistaken about something, or some French legitimists have been looking the other way from their own principles....Anyway, the article could use clarification of this point. Kevin Nelson 09:36, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this principle is called Agnatic succession (See Salic law). It means succession to the throne going to an agnate of the predecessor; for example, a brother, a son, or nearest male relative through male line (collateral agnate branches, for example cousins, very distant cousins included). Chief forms are agnatic seniority and agnatic primogeniture. The latter, which has been the most usual, means succession going to the eldest son of the monarch; if the monarch had no sons, the throne would pass to the nearest male relative through male line. Stijn Calle 18:36, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
In the 1870s the rival Orleanist and Legitimist claimants agreed, for the sake of the French Monarchy, to end their rivalry. The comte de Paris accepted the prior claim to the throne of the comte de Chambord. Chambord, who remained childless, in turn acknowledged that the comte de Paris would claim the right to succeed him as heir. Since then, a new rift between Legitimists and Orleanist originated, which exists untill today. However, the more ardent Legitimists argued that the renunciation of the French throne by Philip V of Spain, second grandson of Louis XIV, was invalid, and that in 1883 the throne had passed to his male heirs, as follows:
So, to answer your question, Isabella (so called II) of Spain, comes into it, because she married Francis of Spain, and he was the male primogeniture of the Bourbons, and so his male descendants (which are also the descendants of Isabella), were rightfully pretender (not hers), i.c. Alphonse I, king of France. Stijn Calle 18:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick and informative response! I would like to suggest that some more of the information you give above could be put in the article. This raises another question, though. If Louis Alphonse's claim to the French throne rests on the theory that one cannot renounce a royal inheritance for one's descendants, then it seems one could argue that Louis Alphonse's own grandfather could not have properly renounced the Spanish throne...and Louis Alphonse has just as good a claim to the Spanish throne as to the French--maybe even better! Incidentally, did Alphonso XIII of Spain ever make any sort of claim on the French throne as the above list indicates he could have? It is certainly news to me that _anyone_ ever considered him as a French royal claimant. Kevin Nelson 16:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
1. Alphonse I of France did claim to be the legitime pretender to the French throne.
2. Within the salic law, if a male primogeniture pretender renounces, he only renounces for himself on a personnal level. If his renouncement would automatically mean a renouncement of his male heirs, this would de facto change the system, which cannot be allowed. So the bloodline continues with the next male primogeniture. And therefore Jacques II of France / Henry VI of France could not renounce for his male children on June 23 1933. He only renounced for himself. So H.R.H. Louis XX de France indeed got a claim to the Spanish throne that is superior to the actual, constitutional, (so called) king Juan Carlos. But as far as I know he has never publicly stated this claim. Problably for tacticle reasons in order not to 'insult' the other branch. It is a fact that they never accepted the declaration of Philip V of Spain, that one person could never be king of Spain and France at the same time. Stijn Calle 18:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Correction. H.R.H. Louis Alphonse has also got a (theoretical) claim, besides to the French throne, to the Spanish throne. But I do not think he transformed this theoretical claim into a practical claim, in order not to threaten his theoretical and practicle claim to the French throne. There could be a possibility of invalidity perhaps if the two thrones were to be combined in one head. Stijn Calle 14:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Kevin, the Utrecht renunciation is totally invalid, even a king of France cannot refuse the crown for himself, he can only refuse acting as a king, if this happened there would be a regency or any other government. King Charles X did not abdicate, he named his cousin "Lieutenant-Général du Royaume", and his cousin managed to be named "king of the French" (in this way, one can sustain it was not an usurpation, as he didn't pretend succeeding to his cousin, but instore a new monarchy; he renounced to his arms, etc. If Utrecht renunciation had been valid (what none legist admitted, I think, anyway fortunately, the États-Généraux were not called, this was a success from Louis XIV who knew that id would make any change in succession order invalid), as their text precise very clearly, all descendents of king Philip V of Spain would be excluded from the French crown. Orléans princes, as well as Napoléon princes, do descend from Philip V, so the Utrecht renunciation, if valid would exclude them too. TR, 8 June 2007

[edit] King of Albania

Why is Louis de Bourbon a pretender to the Albanian throne? I don't remember the House of Bourbon having reigned in Albania... (?) - Louis88 17:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello? - Louis88 15:13, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Stijn Calle added the category. But Louis Alphonse could be the heir of the Angevin Kings of Albania who belonged to the House of Valois which was a cadet branch of the Capetian dynasty of which Louis Alphonse is the senior member. - dwc lr 15:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, he is. Stijn Calle 16:06, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
If the title of King of Albania was held by a junior branch of the family, it doesn't mean it belongs to Louis Alphonse now as head of the house. The only way is if he is a lineal representative of that particular title. Charles 00:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] King of Jerusalem

I read that HM Juan Carlos of Spain is the Bourbon pretender to the throne of Jerusalem (see Kings of Jerusalem) - they can't be both, now which article is right? - Louis88 10:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

If there can be more than one pretender to the throne of Jerusalem, there can be more than one Bourbon pretender to the throne. It depends upon whether one sees the claim to Jerusalem as having been permanently united to Spain. When Louis Alphonse's grandfather, Infante Jaime, Duke of Segovia, renounced Spain, did he also renounce Jerusalem? Since Jerusalem had no requirement of equal marriage (as Spain did), Jaime's son Alfonso, Duke of Anjou and Cádiz could be a dynast of Jerusalem and pass on his rights to his son Louis Alphonse. Noel S McFerran 12:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

This page was vandalised yesterday by an anonymous person, who wanted to discredit Louis Alphonse in an sexually offensive and graphic way. Stijn Calle 07:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Usually when vandals do such things, they do not include an edit summary. In this case, the individual wrote, "Fixed various syntax and spelling mistakes"; this was highly misleading. Noel S McFerran 11:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why not use his real name

If he was born as Luis Alfonso (on his Spanish birth certificate) and on his French Identaty card states Luis Alfonso, and when he is written up in magazines as Luis Alfonso, why did we name him "Louis Alphonse"? We use Juan Carlos I and not John Charles I. Callelinea 22:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name and title in infobox

I'm not a proponent of using infoboxes, because their intention is to simplify matters - and in this case, simplification isn't easy or helpful. Virtually everything about Louis Alphonse's name and title is complicated. Today User:Counter-revolutionary changed the infobox entry for English name to "Louis XX, King of France". Then User:Demophon reverted it to "Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou". Now is the time for discussion. Noel S McFerran (talk) 20:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The way I see it the infobox for a pretender, which this is, should refer to their title in pretence, in this case Louis XX. From what I've seen this is done in other articles, and really makes the most sense. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 20:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Please take another look at Template:Infobox_pretender (you have to click on "Edit" to see the whole thing). There is a field for "English name", and another for "Regnal name claimed". Then see how the template is used on the articles for Henri, comte de Paris, duc de France (Louis Alphonse's rival for France) and Alexander, Crown Prince of Yugoslavia. Noel S McFerran (talk) 14:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)