Talk:Lot (Bible)

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[edit] Pictures

Im removing offensive picture of lot having sex with his daughters. It deeply offends me to have a nude picture pertaining to the bible, let alone, one of people having sex. It makes it seem to an unknowing reader, that he wanted to have sex with his daughters! Maybe, the pictures can be moved under the text. An unknowing reader is then able to understand the paintings. A very good website on bible and culture is http://www.statenvertaling.net, de Dutch translation of the Bible and comparable to the King James Version (KJV). It has a lot of pictures.

E.g, Lot and his daughters: http://www.statenvertaling.net/beeld/lotdochters_grt.jpg (the same category as the removed pictures.

But other examples include:

Blubberbrein2 21:51, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

To say that you've removed something because it offends your sensibilites smacks of POV to me. The bible story says that Lot had sex with his daughters. Artists have depicted this event. Therefore, the history of this artistic theme belongs in this article and the picture should be included. If you take issue with the subject or its inclusion, you should call up the author of J and have a conversation with him/her.--64.230.78.95 16:46, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree so I have put the image back. I think it illustrates very well how even in the C17 rational people were able to make fun of these stupid myths Albatross2147 01:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Watch the tone here. If a picture is worth a thousand words, than what this picture seems to be saying may be POV. He is right, it looks like he wants sex with his daughters, which is not what the text we have says. I think we should have another picture. It may seem to you that this is just a myth, but to others it isn't, so be a little more neutral in your tone, please. Whether or not you think it is a myth, this picture portrays a POV which is somewhat unbalanced. Perhaps what is needed is a more neutral picture at the top and a discussion at the bottom (with the current picture) of the controversy of Lot. Wrad 21:05, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The Picture in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lot_%28Bible%29#Homosexuality is pornography picture? Azmi 07:16, 14 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.161.131.203 (talk)

[edit] Content

This is "Sunday School" stuff. The book is Genesis, it needs chapter and verse reference; the midrash traditions are separate and should be identified; what is the use made of Lot? what of Lot's Wife? Are these etymologies of Moab and Amon any more than conventions? What use is made of Lot in the New Testament and the Qur'an? Wetman 13:39, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Salt

Salt is not hard; see Halite. Someone should fix this statement of fact to a (mis)statement of interpretation.

This 'pillar of salt' allows for a lot of interpretation as the opinions vary. That is why it is in another section

I fixed the statement about salt being "as hard as the hardest of rocks," it is indeed one of the softest in relation to most rocks. Furthermore, I also agree in incorporating the Qu'ran's version of Lot (Luth) I'd suggest simply filling in the information that differs where needed, by simply writing "according to the Bible" and "according to the Qu'ran" 142.35.4.130 02:33, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rename

see discussion in Talk:Lut. --Striver 19:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed section

This needs to be WP:CITEd or otherwise it looks like a combination of WP:OR and WP:WEASEL. Megapixie 00:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Critics have attacked the story of Lot in the Bible as supporting rape, homophobia, racism, and disrespect for the victims of incest. They point to the following:

  • Lot offers his daughters to the men of Sodom to be raped. The text nowhere condemns this act. The text implies that one's (male) guests are to be valued more highly than one's daughters. Some also see in the text a suggestion that raping women is a cure for homosexuality, and that homosexuality is a worse sin than the rape of women
  • Some argue that the depiction of the citizens of Sodom and Gommorah is a ethnic slur against the enemies of the ancient Hebrews. Likewise, in making the ancestors of the Moabites and Ammonites the descendants of incest, critics see another ethnic slur against the enemies of the ancient Hebrews. This slur, they argue, forms part of the foundation for the genocide of the Ammonite ethnic group repeatedly advocated in the Old Testament
  • Some also point to the portrayal of the men of Sodom is a slur on homosexuals
  • Many find the story that Lot was seduced by his daughters highly implausible. To many, it seems far more likely that Lot would rape his own daughters, and then attempt to shift the blame on to them for what he did. From a feminist perspective, this is in line with patriarchial society which seeks to make victims of rape and incest responsible for their abuse, rather than the perpetrators
Note that some of the above criticisms (e.g. the story of incest) do not apply to the Islamic account, since Islam denies the incest occurred. However, other criticisms, e.g. Lot's willingness to offer his daughters to the men of Sodom, apply to the Islamic account also.

I looked up some citations and added the rape and homophobia stuff, but I couldn't find anything on racism and incest. Wrad 21:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

This whole section, as it stands currently, seems to need a bit of revision so that it becomes coherent and understandable. Maybe it should be re-tooled to a "Critical View" heading with the varying interpretations of these events all laid out clearly. It is something of a mess. Rshaulcolm 17:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I would have no objections to making it better. Wrad 17:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Maybe change “The Story of Lot in the Bible” to “Lot in The Judeo-Christian Bible” and have beneath it “Lot in The Qur'an” and “The Joseph Smith Translation”. Then just cut and paste the Islamic and LDS view with whatever cosmetic alterations are necessary . By the by, there is additional material for discussion on the subject of how the Qur'an treats Lot (as well as his wife), but that is probably best left for the main article on the subject. So then a change of “Homosexual View” to “Critical Viewpoints” or something similar. I would suggest that any discussion of the people of Sodom in 19:5 be placed within Sodom and Gomorrah, rather than on a page dealing with Lot specifically. A discussion of the implications of the text should probably be focused on Lot ‘s actions and those of his family, rather than external players who have their own Wikipedia entry. All that is left to do is to write about 19:8 and 30-38 in a readable and unbiased fashion that mentions the varying interpretations. Rshaulcolm 22:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I fixed it to match with some of your suggestions. Wrad 08:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I have been told that the story of Sodom had nothing to do with homosexuality, but rather it was meant as a parable about the importance of honoring guests. For example, this point of view says that Lot didn't offer his daughters to the crowd because it was better that women were raped than men... He offered them because it was better that his own daughters were raped than to have guests in his house be dishonored. The article doesn't really mention this perspective, so it may be something to look into... 02 Jan 2008

[edit] Pass the salt

I added this:

"Finally, it has been suggested this is a metaphor meaning she was made barren, in allusion to salting fields making them infertile."

I recall reading this someplace, but I'm damned if I can recall where, or I'd cite the source... Can somebody confirm? Trekphiler 13:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC) I would suggest waiting until we have a source before adding it. 199.71.183.2 (talk) 18:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] LOT and LUT shouldent be merged

dont merge my history with the quran lot and his story and its interpretations are part of the bible and of the jewish history and not the quran "lut" can have its own page and the islamic view of him

[edit] 'midrash' duh!

i misread/thought 'mishnah' (spot the gentile). i assume it is from comentary on Tanakh? can someone provide more specific reference? → bsnowball 11:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy Surrounding Lot's Ability to Fornicate

I am completely unsure where this material is derived from. The source material he cites doesn't even mention anything in regards to this. I have never heard this discussed before in any context, and can only presume it's some sort of joke or personal response to the subject matter at hand. I think it should really be removed. Rshaulcolm 21:27, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] "Pillar of Salt": Figure of speech Idiom

Lot's wife did not actually turn into a pillar of salt. Its a figure of speech that is virtually equivilent to an idiom (figure of speech) used in the USA, when we refer to a person "kicking the bucket". Because we say they kicked the bucket, does not make them into a bucket kicker. It means they died. At least one authority has written about this figure of speech. Bishop Pillai. The name of his book, which book, I'm not sure of. I copied his comments to my bible and sold the books. He wrote that the figure means Lot's wife had a stroke or heart attack: died. There is a list of Biblical Figures at the bottom of this page Figures of speech in the bible from Dr. E. W. Bulligner. "Idiom" is the figure from Bullinger's appendix that fits this situation explained in detail by Pillai.Mdvaden 00:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Found this page mentioning Dr. Pillai - the idiom is in one of the books listed About Pillai.Mdvaden 00:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what's going on here, but "pillar of salt" isn't mentioned on either of the pages referenced above. "Pillar of Salt" is a figure of speech now, but only because it was ased in the Bible. I haven't seen anything to indicate that it was a figure of speech in biblical times. 199.71.183.2 (talk) 17:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Joseph Smith Translation

I don't wish to be rude, but does Joseph Smith offer any actual textual evidence for translating the passage in the opposite sense to the way everyone else does? 199.71.183.2 (talk) 17:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

That's not really relevant to the article. It's just what they believe. You could ask the same question of the Koran. This article attempts to express a variety of beliefs, not critique those beliefs. Wrad (talk) 18:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia

Wikipedia isn't a pornography Website, but who's upload the Image:Lot and his Daughters.jpg. That image is pornoghraphy (I can't speak English. Sorry) Azmi1995 07:35, 9 Februari 2008 (UTC) 13:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a source of information, pornography is information. Also it's art not pornography, pornography is created with the intent of sexual gratification. This is a biblical story scene, what makes this scene pornographic and jesus dying on the cross not? The daughters are not engaging in sex, merely lounging. Not looking out at the viewer or implying being owned witch is a major distinction between art and porn, and the context isn't meant to gratify but disgust and intrigue the viewer.Sanitycult (talk) 01:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
It's not porn. Cloths are covering everything you wouldn't see in any other classical painting. It's a work of art. It's based on a biblical event. The artist goes out of his way to cover things up. Wrad (talk) 02:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Rename

I've been correcting links on various pages from Lot (a disambig page) to the proper articles. I'm seeing a lot of links from religious but non-Christian articles to this page. I propose that this page be renamed to Lot (religious figure) and Lot (Bible) be redirected here. Anyone agree/disagree? Aylad ['ɑɪlæd] 17:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)