Talk:Loren Bouchard

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[edit] Production credits for Dr Katz

IMDB lists Bouchard as producing one episode of Dr Katz. Unless there are other sources that can be cited, the statement "...Bouchard's first series, Dr. Katz, Professional Therapist, which he produced" is misleading. Additionally, it is written to sound like he created the show, rather than participated in its production. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.154.17 (talk) 18:42, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Um, no. IMDB only has complete credits for that one episode. It doesn't say that Bouchard didn't produce any others, it just doesn't have the information on any others. That's not the same as saying he didn't produce them (unless you seriously want to argue that Tom Snyder was only exec producer for one episode too). Primary sources are fine for this information, and Bouchard's name is listed in the production credits for these shows. Torc2 (talk) 19:29, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Torc2, you seem to have a vested interest in this article, so perhaps you can find another source? Until then, can we please agree to use IMDB as the source and stop reverting the article? Thank you. 206.248.160.155 (talk) 22:17, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
The episodes are the sources. IMDB does not say what you're saying. It does not support the assertion that Bouchard only produced one episode; the information is simply incomplete. Find me a source that says point blank Bouchard did not produce any other episodes. Why are you so convinced otherwise? Torc2 (talk) 22:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
As you suggested, I've created an RfC. IMDB says one thing, you say (without sources) another. I don't think "the episodes are the sources" is appropriate sourcing. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm simply saying that without another source specifying Bouchard as series producer, we should stick with IMDB and go with the single episode credit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.160.155 (talk) 22:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RfC: Unsourced Production Credits

IMDB lists Bouchard as the producer for a single episode of Dr Katz. As written now, the article implies that Bouchard is the series producer. The wording also suggest Bouchard was the series creator, rather than a particpant.

Bouchard's substantial involvement with Dr. Katz is already established through sources in the article. (For example: http://www.imposemagazine.com/mag/?p=2030 - "Loren Bouchard’s resume is a brief but hefty list which includes production credits for Dr. Katz, Professional Therapist." - My emphasis on the plural.). The anon editor is arguing that Bouchard is only credited for one episode in IMDB, and seems to refuse to acknowledge that this is because IMDB only has production credits listed for one episode. Anon editor has refused (or cannot) provide any evidence that shows Bouchard did not produce most of the Katz episodes, or provide a source saying somebody else produced those episodes. I have the episodes at home, and Bouchard and Katz have been credited as producer for dozens of episode I've watched so far. The statement that Bouchard produced only one episode has been proven false, and IMDB has been shown to be inadequate. Torc2 (talk) 22:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
We have a generally accepted source that only credits Bouchard with producing a single episode. If the credits on the episode show Bouchard as the producer, then there should be another source available, if someone wishes to find it. Otherwise, it counts as original research. Can we stick with sourced material here, instead of simply making assertions? 206.248.165.226 (talk) 03:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Original research? Here's what WP:OR says:

* To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should:

- only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and

- make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source.

Pointing out that Bouchard's name is credited for Producer is a descriptive claim, not interpretive. Any literate person could confirm this by reading it. The OR claim fails. IMDB in no way whatsoever contradicts this claim. Torc2 (talk) 06:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

What is your source for the assertion that Bouchard produced more than the single show credited in IMDB? If it's your personal viewing of videotapes, that's OR. If it's something else, please cite it. Otherwise, can we please revert to the version that agrres with the IMDB credits until such time as you locate another source? This isn't a personal battle, it's simply an attempt to stick with WP guidelines. Do you have a personal interest in this article? 206.248.135.191 (talk) 12:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
As clearly indicated from the section of WP:OR quoted above, reading the production credit for a TV show is not, by any twisted stretch of the imagination, original research. There is no interpretation of the material involved whatsoever. Torc2 (talk) 21:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Torc2, please don't be belligerent. You asked for, and received, an explanation of how the article is inaccurate, and why the credits you have supplied constitute OR, as per the guideline that you selectively quoted. Let the RfC settle the disagreement. Do you have any relationship with Bouchard or the production in question? 76.10.151.136 (talk) 21:53, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I have received no such explanation. I've only seen disruptive edits and allegations that reading a credit is somehow original research, in spite of clearly being shown why it is not. I have no relationship whatsoever to Bouchard, Dr. Katz or any associated topic. Torc2 (talk) 22:23, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello people, dropping in from the Third Opinion page. Would suggest that a reliable source is required to substantiate any new edit. If Bouchard is a producer does the studio not have a website or document confirming this? An editor saying they personally saw something on the show's credits is not enough when adding information. RomaC (talk) 15:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
The series is some ten years old, so there is no website. Can you explain what in WP:OR supports your statement "An editor saying they personally saw something on the show's credits is not enough when adding information"? WP:OR certainly allows this for primary sources provided there is no interpretation. WP:OR says: "To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge" - reading an reporting who is credited as producer clearly falls into this category.Torc2 (talk) 00:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

My opinion: While I can't be sure that all the various comments by different IPs are from the same person, it certainly seems that way and I will address my comments as such. First, I note the IP editor is pushing a false dilemma; it is certainly as possible that IMDB's data is incomplete as it is that Bouchard only contributed to one episode. I also note that the IP editor is misinterpreting WP:OR, as a fact that is trivially obvious from a primary source (i.e. reading the credits of the episodes) is not Wikipedia:Original research. Also, WP:OR does not apply to talk page discussions, only to article contents, so Torc2's proof that IMDB's data is incomplete cannot be dismissed out of hand. Even if WP:OR did apply, trying to claim that the one-episode theory is true because of that is argumentum ad logicam. I also see the IP editor throwing unfounded accusations of conflict of interest in an attempt to silence discussion. All in all, the IP editor seems to be being disruptive and tendentious, and engaging in wikilawyering.

However, it should be relatively easy to find a reliable source that mentions Bouchard's connection to the television show in more global terms. A quick Google search for '"loren bouchard" "dr katz"' turns up this promising reference from the New York Times, and I have no doubt even better references could be found with a little work. Rather than continuing this pointless discussion, I recommend you just find such a reference. Anomie⚔ 16:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. The reference you gave is actually already in the article. Many articles already already cited indicate substantial (but inexact) number of credits. Their coverage is similar to the NYT article: they note that he produced the show, but since it was for a the entire show, there's no reason any of the reports to qualify it or list individually which episodes he produced separately (since it very well could be the entire series. The entire series was just released on DVD a few months ago, but it runs around $100, and even then, the credits on a DVD set are not substantially different than credits on the episode itself, so anon would likely still complain. Torc2 (talk) 00:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Anomie, you are correct in your assumption that all IP comments, including this one are from the same person. Your other accusations are less correct. We clearly disagree on what consistutes OR. All that is being asked is that the article be corrected to jibe with IMDB credits or another source which gives credits (not in passing in a marriage announcement) be found. How is that wikilawyering? 206.248.161.158 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:48, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Another opinion: Quite frankly, the shows credits are the prefered source. Although IMDB has a vested interest in being accurate, the show's credits are required to be accurate under contract law, a far stronger reason to be reliable. Simply stating trivial details from a primary source (trivial as in those needing no more than raw observation of the material and no deduction or reasoning) is perfectly allowable and correct. More importantly, I would like to put forth the following simple point "how is information within a primary source being stated again within a secondary source any more reliable than the primary source itself?". Where no further primary sources have been synthesised together and the secondary source is not also a primary source for the subject, a statement within a secondary source cannot be any more true than the one within the primary source. LinaMishima (talk) 01:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. IMDb is not always accurate but the credits to a show certainly are. This interview lists him as "executive producer on the mid-90's, straight man vs. sane man program, Dr. Katz: Professional Therapist". Variety lists as "Produced By: John Fisher, Jonathan Katz, Loren Bouchard". Benjiboi 20:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)