Talk:Lordship salvation

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[edit] Free grace

I'd like to get a better account of both sides here with sources and some quotes. MessyJ has experessed an interest in getting that done. Anyone else interested?

Some things to get us going:

1. How do you think the page stands now?
2. Is the Lordship Salvation view well represented?
3. Is the Free grace view well represented?
4. Is the page neutral in its approach (given that it is the page for "Lordship salvation")?
5. Do all free gracers agree with Ryrie as the article describes his view?

--Flex 23:24, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm also interested in getting "a better account of both sides here." I do not think the Lordship Salvation view of how to become a Christian is even mentioned, which is the far more serious matter in the debate.

~~Clnewman~~

Please explain. As I understand it, this controversy mainly revolves around a particular part of the doctrine of salvation, viz. sanctification. The implications of Lordship salvation certainly reach back to the initial stages of salvation (e.g., if a person doesn't persevere, did they truly repent and believe to begin with?), but those initial stages are not central to the debate AFAICT. Do you see it differently? --Flex (talk|contribs) 14:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, and of course I'll be happy to explain as thoroughly as you like. The initial stages are hugely central to the debate, as I see it, of course.

Sometimes a tract (or preacher, or book) will be very eloquent about the need for the work of Christ, its great provision for sin, the inability of man to save himself, etc., but when it gets down to the end, right at the discussion about how to actually receive salvation from God, without mentioning it at all until then, it throws in some phrase like "I totally give you my life" or "I give you control of everything" or something like that. This aspect of Lordship Salvation is actually where the name comes from, because the Lordship of Christ is invoked as the reason for requiring these promises. This aspect of Lordship Salvation distinguishes it from the condition that you may be referring to as "if a person doesn't persevere," which is another discussion.

Clnewman 14:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I think we might be saying the same thing from different angles. Would you agree that the difference between non-Lordship salvation (aka, carnal Christianity) and Lordship salvation is that the former says works do not necessarily follow from a converted heart while the latter says they do? (As far as the name, I take it to be drawn from the notion of Christ being Lord of everything, including the believer's life. That doesn't directly and necessarily connect to any offer of salvation.) --Flex (talk|contribs) 20:21, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from Free Grace theology

I have suggested we merge that article here, but I don't think the merged article should necessarily bear only the name of lordship salvation. I just think there's a lot of duplicated material that should probably appear in a single article. --Flex (talk/contribs) 01:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think they should be merged, as they are two distinct schools of soteriological thought. Lordship emphasizes that in order to be sure of salvation, fruit will be seen, whereas Free Grace says that fruit will be seen but is essentially irrelevant to justification. Lordship says proof of justification will be works, while Free Grace says no external proof of justification will necessarily be seen (although Free Gracers do not deny that good works will be done, which I believe is distinct from anti-nomianism). Lordship implies life change is necessary, whereas Free Grace says that you can be still be stuck in sin and be saved.

That is my understanding of both sides. But I don't feel they should be merged. --Doctorcherokee (talk) 00:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

That article has also been significantly expanded. It seems fine to leave it as-is. I'll remove the tags. --Flex (talk/contribs) 00:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Piper's contribution

In the bit about how John Piper moved the discussion forward, User:ByGraceAlone added this commentary (I'm moving it from the article to here):

Upon reading the reference to the above statement regarding Piper, the only work that Piper talked about was to listen to and focus on Jesus so that one would not "neglect such a great salvation" and drift away (Heb 2:1-4). Piper did make it clear that the drifting away in Hebrews 2 will lead to eternal destruction. However, to say that John Piper argues that "works" is necessary for salvation from hell from this sermon alone is a twisting of his words. Of course paying attention to Christ is most definitely necessary for salvation, for who can have faith in him whom he has not known? And how can one know someone whom he has not paid any attention to? Whoever wrote the last sentence of the above paragraph need to either offer better support or delete it from this article!

--Flex (talk/contribs) 00:34, 1 March 2008 (UTC)