Talk:Lordship of Ireland

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[edit] Flag

Where does the source of the flag come from? Was there one or is it used here as a convenience? --sony-youth^talk 22:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I did a few searches but it appears that Lordship did not have a specific flag and seeing it was a possession of the Kingdom of England St Georges Flag is used by default. --Barry entretien 02:34, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I've found several sources that put the Three Crowns/flag of Munster as the flag of the Lordship of Ireland:

• GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives
• Seven Bros
• Celtia.info
• Flags of the World
• European Rugby Cup
• Tripod website

There's more like these but granted no authoritative source.

While, of course it was a possession of England, this would not mean that it would share the same flag as they were politically seperate. --sony-youth^talk 19:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Folks - clear up some confusion: the emblem of the Harp as shown would not be the same as the emblem employed by the English- they would have used a Harp with a Crown- the Irish would not of course use the Crown -so you havethe Harp sans Crown used by the President of the Republic. Coinage issued by the English and later by the Irish reflects this usage: the harp with crown by the English, and Irish issued coinage with the harp less the crown. The flag with the three crowns is of course the flag of the province of Munster, I do not know if the English ever used it for their Lordship of Ireland scenario, which of course which was honoured more in the breach rather the observance by the King's very nominal Irish subjects --86.43.99.51 21:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Sources for the Three Crowns/Munster flag are above. A more authoritative source mentioning the same (although as arms, not as a flag) is here. That source says that the crowned harp was introduced by Elizabeth I who "used a crowned harp as badge for Ireland in her second Great Seal of 1586" and that Azure a harp or was attributed to Ireland at least in 1280 (during the Lordship). Elizabeth was way after the Lordship of Ireland, and I don't think her Great Seal would affect the arms of Ireland anyway. --sony-youth^talk 20:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It would have been the personal flag of Henry, marked for a younger (cadet) son in 1185. Two leopards on a red field. The harped flag (crownless or not) was not used before the 1300s. We may like to think in 2007 that it was "honoured in the breach", but in fact we don't know. Let's not make it up.Red Hurley 17:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I've come across more support for the Three Corwns representing the Lordship. (Personally, I would be suspect of a personal standard being the arms of a state. The Lordship wasn't a personal posession.) However, I'm not coming across anything that would put the harp as the arms for the Lordship. I cannot agree with Red that the harp didn't exist at this time - we have a source that puts it existing as the arms of the "Kings of Ireland" in 1280. Presumably it existed for at least some time before then, but who those "Kings of Ireland" are is the crunch question. If it the "Kings" referred to here were the rulers of the Lordship of Ireland then the harp was clearly the arms of the Lordship. However, I suspect not. Most sources put Henry VII's use of it as "new." So, these "kings" would, in my opinion, more likely be the the Gaelic kings.

I have however come across a reasonable explaination for why the Three Crowns stoped being used (and may hint at why they were use to being with). One source says "that the three crowns were replaced with the harp by Henry VIII, in case they were mistaken for the Papal tiara." So, just as he wanted to change the title from Lordship to Kingdom to fend off encroachment of the Pope, it appears he did the same with the symbols of the state.

(Incidentally, I have also come across something quite surprising which I am going to post to Talk:Kingdom of Ireland. ATQ Stewart says the following on Henry VIII in The Shape of Irish History: "Ireland was given a new green flag and the harp as its national symbol." Unfortuneately, he was not more about this "green flag." However, this got me thinking, was this the Green Flag of the kind associated with 1798? Certainly, the Saltaire (the flag currently appearing on the Kingdom of Ireland article) was in no way a flag of that Kingdom (it was coined only 20 years before the end of that state - and even then as a flag for the Order of St. Patrick NOT the kingdom. The Green Flag was used certainly as a naval jack during the KoI and was was hugely popular. It is attributed as the flag of Ireland by rolls in 1600's. In fact there are may references to it being the "flag of Ireland" during the period of the Kingdom, some putting English flag upper right corner. Before this period, blue appears to have been the "colour of Ireland" whereas afterwards green becomes so. For Henty VIII to change from the "flag of Munster" to the "flag of Leinster" also has some sense to it.) --sony-youth^talk 09:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Finally an authorative source: "Our readers will observe that the arms which for many hundred years after the Conquest were borne by the whole of Ireland are now borne by the Province of Munster alone. In the time of Edward the IV. a Commission was held to enquire into the arms of Ireland, which Commission returned that 'yt ye three Crownes were ye armes,'" The Arms of Ireland, Rev. JFM French

See pages 19-21 for a full explaination.

However, it appears that the Harp had a strong association with Ireland such that "when Henry the VIII placed a harp instead of three crowns on the Irish shield he may have only called into requisition a well known Irish badge or crest, which would on that account be the more readily accepted ... [such that] the adoption of the harp as the badge of Ireland was a decided success, and has proved equally acceptable to all parties in the State." --sony-youth^talk 13:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

A clearer description of the use of the harp:

Not so long ago it was generally believed that the inclusion of the harp in the arms and coinage of Ireland dated only from the reign of Henry VIII., but the fact is that the national instrument appears on coins issued by King John and Edward I.; and, in 1251, we read that "the new coinage was stamped in Dublin with the impression of the King's head in a triangular harp." A harp was originally the peculiar device of the arms of the Leinster province, and it was subsequently applied to the whole kingdom of Ireland-namely, in heraldic language, 'on a field vert, a harp or, stringed argent.'" - from Medieval Harps and Harpers --sony-youth^talk 13:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] further cleanup

Added surrender & regrant. Removed Henry viii's excommunication (he wasn't / relationship veered from obedience to strong dislike). Henry burnt protestants at the stake; hated Luther and the Papacy.Red Hurley 15:55, 24 March 2007 (UTC)