Talk:Longevity myths
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What sorts of records are accepted as adequate documentation ("demonstrated records") ? When did people start using those sorts of records ? Did those sorts of records exist over 300 years ago ? --DavidCary 21:16, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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- Well, no. That's the whole point.
"When were you born?" "It must have been a hundred years ago." "Can you prove it?" "Are you calling me a liar?!" DS 14:33, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] verbatim ?
Moved from article because much of the text is copied verbatim from the printed Guinness Book of Records . See http://207.178.248.67/editorial/boston/0801/080601.html for an example of a rewritten version of the same information.
Longevity myths have been around for as long as human records. As the Guinness Book of World Records stated in numerous editions from the 1960s to 1980s, "No single subject is more obscured by vanity, deceit, falsehood, and deliberate fraud than the extremes of human longevity."
At the time those words were written Guinness had never acknowledged anyone as having reached the age of 114, but longevity has increased in recent years. The first three people to be acknowledged by Guinness as reaching 114 have all been subjected to doubt by others,and the first two people Guinness accepted as reaching 113 (both male though the 113-plus age bracket has since been shown on the order of 90% female) are both no longer regarded as having done so.
Even today with Jeanne Calment the recordholder at an indisputable age of 122, the facts remain clear:
Fewer than fifty people in human history have been documented as reaching the age of 114.
Fewer than twenty of those people who reached 114 have reached the age of 115.
Yet in the face of the ages that can be validated by investigation,we are still confronted with claims that the observed extremes have been far exceeded - longevity myths.
Leaving aside claims in mythology of lives into the thousands of years, and biblical claims like Methuselah, there have been reports for centuries that persist today of people decades, even generations, older than have ever been shown authentic.
A National Geographic article in 1973 treated with respect some claims subsequently disproven and retracted, including the notorious Vilcabamba valley in Ecuador, where locals pointed to ancestors' baptismal records as their own. Also in that article were reports of very aged people in Hunza, a mountain region of Pakistan, without documentary evidence being cited.
It is typical that extreme longevity claims come from remote areas where recordkeeping is poor, but generally observed life expectancy is rather lower than in the areas where genuine claims are typically found. The Caribbean island nation of Dominica was lately promoting the allegedly 128-year-old Elizabeth Israel (1875??-2003) but has a smaller population and lower life expectancy than Iceland, where the documentation is very good and the longevity record is 108.
The Caucasus mountain region of Abkhazia was the subject of extreme claims for decades, inspired by the desire of Stalin to believe that he would live a very long time, the most extreme claim there being that of Shirali Mislimov (1805??-1973). An earlier claim of similar lifespan from South America was for Javier Pereira (said to have been determined to be 167 years old by a dentist looking at his teeth!). There have likewise been a scattering of extreme claims from Africa, the most recent being Namibia's Anna Visser, who died in January 2004 at an alleged 125 or 126.
The most extreme claim in the 20th century was a wire service story announcing in 1933 that a Chinese man, Li Chung-yun, born in 1680, had died at age 256 (mathematical error as in original).
In prior centuries there have been other claims, one of the best-known being Thomas Parr, introduced to London in 1635 with the claim that he was 152 years old, who promptly died and was buried in Westminster Abbey. Greater English claims include those of the allegedly-169-year-old Henry Jenkins (apparently concocted to support testimony in a court case about events a century before) and the supposedly 207-year-old Thomas Carn (died in 1588 by most reports).
Longevity myths did not come in for serious scrutiny until the work of W.J. Thoms in 1873, and the odd wire correspondent looking for a captivating filler reports extreme undocumented claims to this day: in early 2000 a Nepalese man claimed to have been born in 1832, citing as evidence a card issued in 1988. In December 2003,a Chinese news service claimed (incorrectly) that the Guinness Book had recognized a woman in Saudi Arabia as being 131.
Responsible validation of longevity claims involves investigation of records following the claimant from birth to the present, and claims far outside the demonstrated records regularly fail such scrutiny. The United States Social Security Administration has public death records of over 100 people said to have died in their 160s to 190s, but often a quick look at the file immediately finds an obvious error.
The work of sorting genuine supercentenarians is a continuous process, and a news story must never be taken for authoritative fact if no validation is cited.
- ONE CLEARLY IDENTIFIED SENTENCE is from the Guinness Book.NOTHING ELSE.To call this article copyright infringement is outrageous harrassment!--Louis Epstein/12.144.5.2/le@put.com
Why This Article from the-signal.com and Longevity myths both refer to the same mathematical error? "The most extreme claim in the 20th century was a wire service story announcing in 1933 that a Chinese man, Li Chung-yun, born in 1680, had died at age 256 (mathematical error as in original)." Optim 00:50, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- Actually,the Boston article didn't pick up on the mathematical error.(1933-1680 is of course 253 so even if he HAD been born in 1680 he could not have been 256).The point is,my article text is NOT an infringement on the Guinness Book text...Bcorr claimed on the "Copyright violations" page that much of the second half of the article is verbatim from the Guinness Book when the only quote from the Guinness Book,clearly identified,is near the top!The Guinness Book text (1960s-1980s) on Li Chung-yun is The height of credulity was reached on May 5,1933,when a news agency solemnly filed a story from China with a Peking date-line that Li Chung-yun,"the oldest man on earth",born in 1680,had just died aged 256 years(sic).It was modified somewhat thereafter and the reference last appeared in 1994.I have every edition of the Guinness Book since 1970,and did not use their words in referring to anything in the article,except for the one quoted sentence.--Louis E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com
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- OK,ThanksLouis.ICheckedThe1966HardcoverVersionOfTheGuinnessBook(pp.12-123)AndIStandCorrected.OfCourseThatIsWhyItIsCalledPossibleCopyrightViolations.ThanksBCorr ¤ Брайен 21:40, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Since life expectancy is basically an averege,
IMHO "where the life expectancy is rather lower" is not a valid argument. In most under developed areas life expectancy is very low due to large numbers of infant deaths
HussaynKhariq 05:47, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
That is NOT correct! Life expectancy is based on median values, not averages. For example, suppose you have five people die at ages 0, 13, 41, 56, and 73. The AVERAGE is 36.6 (0+13+41+56+73)/5. The life expectancy, however, is 41--the median value. When added up to millions of people, there is still a difference, as you pointed out the infant mortalities tend to weigh down the AVERAGES but have little effect on the MEDIAN or 50% mark, which in most countries occurs in the 70's range.
A little more about statistics: only about 1 in 2 billion people can expect to live to age 115, and only 1 in 10 billion to age 120. So, do you really think age 167 is possible? I don't!Ryoung122 09:33, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Life expectancy is not only life expectancy at birth.Actuarial study records the proportions of people reaching various ages,and the average life expectancy remaining after various ages are reached.It's true that the life expectancy after childhood may exceed life expectancy at birth in countries with high infant mortality,but nonetheless the number reaching extreme ages is also small,and demonstrated survival curves for those within high ages show a high mortality rate that indicates against accepting extreme claims.--L.E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 18:18, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] The name of this article is wrong: it should be Longevity claims
I oppose to the name of this article. If this article is meant in the popular meaning of the word myth (an untrue, popular story) in contrast to the sociological meaning (a unverifiable story that is important for the group) then I think the title is wrong. The word myth in its popular meaning implies that it is untrue but in many cases this article fails to supply proof of the lack of veracity of these longevity claims hence the right word is claim, not myth. Wikipedia articles do not get their names because the writers want to make a point but they get their names to provide the reader with factual information. Andries 22:23, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You missed the whole point! These aren't just unverifiable claims; many have been shown to be false. Moreover, there is a pattern of myth-making, rooted in paternalism, maternalism, nationalism, the "local villager elder," and of course the "fountain of Youth" and "Shang-ri La." Despite scientic documentation (see Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research, Odense Monographs) that high age claims are a function of illiteracy and lack of record-keeping (and disappear when record-keeping is in place for 100 consecutive years), people from lands such as India continue to make extra-ordinary claims, not realizing that Europe itself once did as well...but has now matured to "proven" longevity (except for Eastern Europe, where the myth of longevity survives).
- This article is specifically concerned with untrue claims,and the reasons they should not be taken at face value.The phenomenon of making unsupported claims of longevity has been known throughout history,and the burden of proof is on the claimant'.An article that encourages respect for unsupported assertions in the name of "NPOV" is not providing factual information,but obscuring it.--Louis Epstein/le@put.com/12.144.5.2 17:51, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Let me say that a separate article, "longevity claims," could be established. In Louis's "longevity myths" article, he cites only extreme claims that are obviously false--and not only that, but these claims often take on nationalistic-myth or ethnic-myth overtones. The recent Elizabeth Israel myth was turned into a tourist industry, school play, etc. for Dominica.
A separate article for "longevity claims" could include supercentenarians whose age is not entirely proven but for whom either some evidence suggests is true, or the claim is within the realm of possibility--i.e., 110th birthday--and was made more on an individual basis than as a banner of nationalism, as was the case with Thomas Parr of England, Christian Drakenberg, Shirali Mislimov, Javier Perreira, etc.Ryoung122 09:26, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
To resolve this issue, I have decided to create a Longevity Claims article. I believe that these are two separate discourses. This page is better served by explaining the history of the myths of longevity. The longevity claims article can explain the problems with the age verification process, and list some age claims that are partially-validated but not fully authenticated.Ryoung122 08:49, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I still don't like how biblical "claims" are listed under a heading with the word "myth" in it.
- I agree. The claims that were proven to be a myth should go here, and those that have not been proven should go at Longevity claims. Calling religious longevity "myths" may affend people, and these havn't even been proven whether or not they are true or false. -AMK152(Talk • Contributions • Send message) 19:52, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Abkhaz?
I had the impression that there was once a practice in the Abkhaz regions whereby one could avoid military conscription if one was of advanced age, and therefore people would often buy documents showing that they were actually in their 70s. Presto, an extra 50 years added to someone's age.
Or something.
[edit] Benito Martinez
New contender for the oldest living person.. Should be at Supercentenarian but 2 editors don't feel its valid. But Guinness is not THE authority. this is hypocritcal of them >>> "No single subject is more obscured by vanity, deceit, falsehood, and deliberate fraud than the extremes of human longevity" It is they.. who are making money out of the disparate, the media savvy, and fallacious claims - indulging in the presentation of false/elitist 'record' system. dishonest u catch me?. Do they rule achievement history? max rspct 17:15, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In other words, Max Respect (an avowed Marxist), is advancing a case without proof, and then throwing in the red herring of profit-making. Guinness has millions of records, they are not making a profit off of a single "world's oldest person" record...Benito Martinez has no proof of existence before 1925, nor does he have any family tree that can establish his age in context.
[edit] Shigechiyo Izumi
Noticed that other pages are saying there is some dispute to his age but this page has him undisputed. Perhaps some consistency - SimonLyall 10:13, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
The case IS disputed. The problem is, people who don't know what they're talking about keep corrupting the system.
Now I've been given a word that a child is using his imagination - and I've come to put a stop to it! Anyway, How can this be possible?:
The longest working career for a person ever recorded is th 98 years worked by Shigechiyo Izumi, who began his career goading draft animals at a sugar mill in 1872. He retired as a sugercane farmer in 1970 aged 105.
And this article is out of date!:
Copyright 1987 Asahi News Service Asahi News Service
APRIL 6, 1987, MONDAY
LENGTH: 391 words
HEADLINE: JAPANESE EXPERT DEBUNKS IDEA OF 'VILLAGE OF 100-YEAR-OLDS'
DATELINE: TOKYO
BODY: A Japanese expert on aging says reports that the oldest Japanese man died earlier last year at the age of 120 are false -- he was only 105.
The true age of Shigechiyo Izumi, who died in February 1986, was discovered through research in his family's registration records, says Toshihisa Matsuzaki, director of the Department of Epidemiology at the Tokyo Metropolitan Institute of Gerontology.
At an April 4 meeting of the Japan Association of Medical Sciences, Matsuzaki also denied there is any village in the world made up mostly of people well over the age of 100, including a Japanese village with such a reputation.
There is no such thing as the village of centenarians, Matsuzaki says.
The village of Yuzurihara in Japan's Yamanashi Prefecture has a reputation as the home of many old people who go about their daily work with the vigor of those much younger. But Matsuzaki says statistics show that of the village residents over the age of 65, fewer of them are 90 or older than the national average.
The village is dubbed as a senior citizens' village only because many young people left for the city, he says.
Matsuzaki also casts doubt on other villages in the Soviet Union and Equador that have similar reputations.
He says there is no one age 110 or older living in a village in the Georgian Republic of the Soviet Union known as the home of the world's oldest people. He says half of the village residents claiming to be 90 or older gave false ages.
Matsuzaki quotes a Soviet medical researcher as saying, It is a fairy tale that people 130 or 140 years old exist.
Matsuzaki suspects that Georgian men may have reported false ages to escape military service. One reason he is suspicious is that more men than women are 100 or older in the Georgian Republic, in contrast to global statistics that show four times as many women than men reach that age.
Citing research done by American scholars, Matsuzaki also labels a myth the idea that the village of Vilcabamba, Equador, has many residents well over 100 years old.
Matsuzaki quotes the scholars as saying that all the people over the age of 90 gave the wrong age and that those who claimed to be over 100 were actually 86 years old on the average. The age claimed by one person would have made him five years older than his mother, Matsuzaki says.
[edit] Re; Longevity myths
Removed this text by User:193.203.149.125 from the article: seemed unencyclopedic. --Sum0 20:22, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Re; Longevity myths.
'When the medical world began studying longevity seriously in the 1960s, scientists flocked to Abhazia, Georgia, the Hunza, and Vilcabamba, Ecuador, sites renowned for the long life spans of their residents. In 1978, Dr. Richard Mazess published a study claiming that in Vilcabamba everyone was exaggerating their true ages. Since proper birth records did not exist, he based his premise on a genealogical survey of families in Vilcabamba, combined with baptism records that are for all purposes illegible. Whether his conclusions are correct or not, they were accepted as fact.
Mazess, who is a specialist on osteoporosis, had come here to study the remarkable lack of the disease in Vilcabamba. His studies were never really finished, since he became totally absorbed with the exaggeration thesis. He stated that only one centenarian in a population base this size was out of the ordinary. Two 100 year old residents here would be more than a miracle and deserve ample study, At that time, 15 people in the valley claimed to be over a hundred. Mazess said they were all liars. He listed ten people he considered to be between 85 and 95, and who claimed to be centenarians. Of that list, two people are still alive. Since the list was made in 1978, it would seem that Dr. Mazess has an obligation to do more research around Vilcabamba. However, he is now "retired" and still too busy to follow up his original report. In fact, hardly anyone in the scientific world is interested in the theme of natural longevity any more. The fad has passed and laboratory advances have made field work superfluous. Dr. Alex Leaf, who came here with National Geographic, now quotes Richard Mazess as the authority on the old liars from Vilcabamba, and spends all his time researching fish oils. Perhaps fish oils are the salvation of humanity, and certainly it is more convenient than a trip to southern Ecuador. But there is still a whole lot to leam here in Vilcabamba that will never be discovered in a lab. http://www.vilcabamba.org/article.html
The above claim and link is an example of a "fountain of youth" myth (i.e. quackery). The motivation is to convince unsuspecting victims to buy something, such as mineral water. These myths are always based on some unproven claim, and often involve a paranoid take, such as "what they don't want you to know". Believe me, there is absolutely no substance to the Vilcabamba myth.R Young {yakłtalk} 08:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
'...
Indeed, dietary moderation is a consistent feature of the
lives of the superwrinklies. Protein and animal fat typically play a minimal role in their menus. In Sunchang, for example, rice and boiled vegetables are a staple. "The white-rice- and-vegetables-dominated diet consists primarily of carbohydrate, while remaining low in fat," says Dr. Park Sang Chul, who heads the World Health Organization's aging-research center in Seoul and has spent three years studying the residents of Sunchang. "Low fat content is one of the more crucial keys toward longevity." The story is similar for the locals of Hunza Valley, says Khwaja Khan, a physician in the Hunza town of Karimabad who has treated many of the valley's eldest residents. The Hunza, Khan says, were cut off from the outside world for centuries by the 7,000-meter Himalayan peaks ringing the valley, and until recently were forced to subsist on a spartan menu of apricots, walnuts, buckwheat cakes and fresh vegetables. Many cross the century mark, and a few motor on for another 10 years or longer. ... http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/printout/0,13675,501030721-464472,00.html
- While low fat content is probably a good thing to keep one going, I do wonder what they would have to say about Jeanne Calment, who finally gave up smoking at the age of 117. Some people just get good genes. thefamouseccles 03:23, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Biblical accounts
I'm playing devil's advocate now (though I suppose that since I agree with it I must be somewhat diobolical), but if we're going to classify all of these as myths due to an inability to verify them scientifically, shouldn't we toss all the Biblical claims in this boat (Ark?), too? I think someone said previously that we should make this "longevity claims," and I agree if only for the purpose of consistency, if not also because it's unwise to use Wikipedia to make that sort of NPOV statement about a claim's reliability. I think the Biblical example shows us that no matter how silly something seems from a non-believer's standpoint, there is someone out there who won't classify it as a myth. Sometimes a few billion. Fearwig 05:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Someone has recently added an analysis of biblical accounts of longevity--the problem I see is that it's, well, analysis. Is this studied in sources, or is it OR? Fearwig 05:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- I read somewhere that the "years" that Methuselah and others supposedly lived for were really months and that the confusion was caused by an error in translation. We don't know for sure what sort of animal a Leviathan really was; so how can we be sure we have translated this part of the Bible correctly? A life span of 930 years is not at all believable based on current evidence. Treat this as months and divide it by 12, and we get a more plausible life span of 77 years. --B.d.mills 05:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Pul-leeze! Quiz with the lunar-cycle apologism. Two wrongs don't make a right. If these patriarchs were having children at '65' and you divide by 12, what age do you get? No. The book says 930, it means 930. Much the way the characters in Lord of the Rings are thousands of years old. It's fantasy. Quit trying to make it factual when it's not. R Young {yakłtalk} 07:40, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Mohammed al Wasimy
1875-living? http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_al_Wasimy
- And you honestly do believe all this? Extremely sexy 23:59, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Longevity records from antiquity
The claims by the Romans of certain people living a long time is dubious. Roman names did not have a lot of variety; many Romans would have shared a name. How can a Roman emperor be sure that a hypothetical Quintus Maximus who is alive at the time of a Census is really the same Quintus Maximus who was born 150 years ago? --B.d.mills 05:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
The above section misses the entire point of the article. The point of the article is that people tended to make up 'myths' about longevity, and that these myths can be defined by the motivations that give rise to them and the factors that cause them. People adding in their two cents is diluting the purpose and focus. Also, there is a 'longevity claims' section for alleged records. This isn't about records; it's about oral history. R Young {yakłtalk} 07:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
- So adding (with sources, of course) the claim of the Sumerian King List that several semi-legendary kings ruled for thousands of years (which ones I can't tell you -- my copy of the book is at home & I'm not there), or Pliny's claim of several people living more than 100 years would be unwanted? -- llywrch 20:12, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Myth categories
Greetings,
Please note that the myth categories, though all well-delineated, may not be 'rigid' in an either/or sense. It is possible for a myth to fit into more than one category. Someone may be a patriarch, a village elder, and a religious figure. However, these all still differ in that, for example, a village elder need not be a patriarch (esp. if a woman!) and a religious figure also may not be a patriarch (esp. in Eastern religions which stress individual paths). Note also we may see an overlap between nationalism, ideology, localism, Shangri-La, and Fountain of Youth. However, although a myth may have more than one origin, we can find examples of longevity claims that are unique to each particular myth category.
Also, if someone wants to propose a new category, please do so on the message board. Some gratituous additions have missed the point of this article. The longevity claims article is more appropriate for actual possible claims, such as ages 113 or 115. This article deals mainly with those cases which are scientifically impossible, but are still made for reasons of nationalism, religion, wanting to life forever, etc. R Young {yakłtalk} 07:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
One of these categories should include the genealogies in Genesis. Those people were said to live 800+ years. Not that I believe it, or am a christian, but I feel it should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.227.128.28 (talk) 20:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Emperor Jimmu reference innapropriate
Including Emperor Jimmu as an example of Longevity Myths is logically incorrect. Emperor Jimmu was never claimed to have lived particularily long (75 years is hardly a remarkable lifespan). While Jimmu's existance itself might be a myth, his lifespan is of no extraordinary note. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.154.84.2 (talk • contribs)
- It isn't indeed: I agree with you. Extremely sexy 10:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I disagree: some Japanese emperors were stated to have reigned for over 100 years, and the purpose of the age-exaggeration was to extend the 'reign dates' of Emperor Jimmu Tenno back into time. Most modern Japan historians believe that, if he existed, he lived some 1,000 years later. The Japanese-emperor cases are relevant because they offer one reason for age inflation.74.237.28.5 03:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Further, in this case the extension of age of the in-between emperors was made in part to back-date Emperor Jimmu's status further in the past.Ryoung122 07:55, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
