Talk:Longevity claims

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Greetings,

To ensure that this page follows a scientific discourse, I am listing below the criteria for inclusion to this article:

1. The case must have been cited in the news media. "I'm 156" or "my grandma is a 143-year-old witch-doctor" won't cut it (and is vandalism). This limitation does not prove the person's age, but proves that a claim exists. It also limits the list from "ghost" listings (for example, the Social Security Administration sometimes doesn't record a death, and on paper the person might be "121" years old, but in reality, no such claim was ever made).

2. The claimed age must be at least 110 but less than 130 years old. Because the number of claims would be too large, claims to less than 110 are excluded. Because the odds of surviving beyond 130 are on the order of trillions to one, 130 is seen as a proper cutoff (and has been cited as such by noted demographers, such as Dr. Jay Olshansky of the University of Chicago).

3. There must be at least a claimed year, month, and date of birth. Because if even the person themselves doesn't "claim" to have a birthdate, we can know that the person's age is more in line with a longevity myth. A longevity claim is presuming that the person's age is neither proven nor disproven.

4. As above, disproven cases should be moved to longevity myths, together with a citation of how the case was disproven and why the age exaggeration occurred in the first place.

NO NEED TO LOWER LONGEVITY CLAIMS TO AGE 110

Unless Wikipedia is set to list the 940+ verified supercentenarian cases, lowering the claims threshold to age 110 is simply unfair and ridiculous. → R Young {^yakł_talk} 22:40, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 TABLES 2 Favorite source of vandalism 3 Biblical claims 4 Oldest modern man and woman claims 5 Anna Borysiewicz 6 Alberta Davis 7 Hrory Nestor 8 Tagging claimants 9 Purpose 10 Age 130 or above 11 Tougher criteria needed 12 Eleanor Micklebuckle, 129, of Elkhart, Illinois added 13 New info found on LaJean Smith 14 Longevity myths 15 Verification 16 Urgent question for Robert Young 17 95% figure, Another question for Ryoung122 18 Ruperto Hernandez 19 Taejo of Goguryeo 20 Carmen Catrileo Hualla 21 Hryhoriy Nestor 22 Mariam Amash 23 Maria Strelnikova 24 Goshada (Gosada) Tsallaeva 25 Swami Bua 26 US State and Country listed

[edit] TABLES

Can someone table-ize the lists on longevity claims?131.96.70.158 19:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Done -AMK152^{(Talk • Contributions • Send message)} 20:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Favorite source of vandalism

Why is this article such a FAVORITE source of vandalism? Childish immaturity. I know, the reasoning goes something like this: well, these people just make up fake ages, so why don't I just join in and do the same thing?

WRONG. Even if these ages are fake, they at least are cited in newspaper publications...something your vandalism clearly hasn't been in. Stop the vanity, and grow up and get a brain.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 09:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biblical claims

There are a lot of Biblical claims that I think should be on Wikipedia somewhere, I'm not looking properly or they're not there. Longevity claims or longevity myths? Well these claims haven't been disproven but there are only ages, no dates of course. Any 200+ categories? I don't know, you guys know what you're doing. --203.97.127.185 07:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Biblical claims would be longevity myths because there is a religious meaning attached to their age. A longevity claim is a claim made by or for a single individual that lacks sufficient documentation for verification but, if true, would place the person among the world's oldest people (113+). Hence, Oberia Coffin is a longevity claim. Methuselah is a longevity myth.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 22:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oldest modern man and woman claims

There are numerous, widely known in the region, claims of the oldest living modern man (at about 160+) and woman (140+) in the country of Azerbaijan. These claims have a long history in the various sources of media and, I believe, they have even been recognized by the Guiness Book of World Records for a while. There is a region in the southern most mountains of the country, where the microclimate has been said to be one of the most life-prolonging in the world, allegedly scientificly concluded. I think this claim should at least be mentioned in the Wikipedia, seeing how it is a much higher age than the majority of other "semi-credible" ones. Someone should look into this and compile a good little summary. Here is an example of the mention of this claim in the media:

http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/62_folder/62_articles/62_centenarianslerik.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.80.59.47 (talk) 03:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC).

There's nothing scientific about these claims, and contrary to belief, the ages claimed are not appreciably higher than elsewhere (we've seen age 167 claimed in Nepal, for example). See longevity myths for more.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 04:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anna Borysiewicz

Dead => look here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.30.194.180 (talk) 06:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

Thanks for letting us know, but when exactly did she die then, please? Extremely sexy 12:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Someone else said February 23rd, according to this report, hence. Extremely sexy 15:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alberta Davis

Alberta Davis noted in the article as a person still alive has already died on Jan 27, 2007 (look her own wiki-article). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.240.220.40 (talk) 08:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

Good point, and so I corrected this. Extremely sexy 14:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hrory Nestor

The BBC transliterate Mr Nestor's name as "Hryhoriy". Could a scholar of Ukranian decide which is best? Tevildo 20:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tagging claimants

Does anyone want to start tagging the claimants, like I did with Ruperto Hernandez? R Young {^yakł_talk} 08:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Purpose

One of the purposes of this article is to document that longevity claims can be found from any region of the world where accurate records are not kept...including European nations prior to birth registration.R Young {^yakł_talk} 23:01, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Age 130 or above

It is meaningless to set the claimed age must be less than 130 years old. As discuss by other wikipedians on this page, there are some claims are 140+, and has reported by media. But why don't include this claim? If you think setting boundary for these claim is appropriate, why don't change the topic from Longevity claims to Longevity claims with partially evidence, or even change to Longevity claims that make sense (make sense because claims are less than 130), or mention the boundary setting on the top of the claim page.Joe3600 06:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tougher criteria needed

Should not each person have a reference to a news article? Right now this is just a list of empty names, but there is not even a reference to the claim in most cases. As far as I am concerned 80% of the names in the table should be removed straight away, and I think many of the remaining 20% are subject to removal if one checks the sources. For example Habib Miyan has no references at all in the corresponding article. Mlewan 09:59, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

If you check link #9--"World's Oldest People"--you can search for each case in the search box and find a link.

Happy reference-linking!Ryoung122 19:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

If you are talking about the world's oldest people, are you seriously suggesting we use a yahoo discussion group as reference? Mlewan 09:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Definitely so: this is a serious group. Extremely sexy 17:47, 9 July 2007 (UTC)#

But in no way can a discussion group be regarded as a Reliable Source. - fchd 19:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

WRONG. The group was the number# search hit on Yahoo, and was featured on the Yahoo front page in June 2007 for the Tomoji Tanabe story (60+ million users). It has existed for 5+ years and the messages are all archived by date.Ryoung122 04:00, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

You clearly do not understand the concept of reference very well. Nothing you say in the previous paragraph makes it more likely that the group postings would be reliable. (I fixed the formatting of your entry above. Hope you do not mind.) Mlewan 05:44, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

WRONG. From the page you cite: "This page is a guideline, not a policy". This is a GUIDELINE, NOT A POLICY. Claiming that others 'do not understand' is simply an insult. Check out the 2008 Guinness Book, page 2...is that my name there? Yes it is.Ryoung122 07:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Not even if several reliable sources are mentioned and used in it, dear Richard? Extremely sexy 20:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

No. If that is the case, the reliable sources said to be quoted on the discussion group should be the ones referenced here. They can be written or electronic, but must be Verifiable. And cite them inline, against each case. - fchd 21:09, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I will just delegate this task to Robert. Extremely sexy 21:32, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

From the 'verifiability' page:

[edit] Self-published sources (online and paper) Policy shortcut: WP:SPS Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.[5]

Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications

Thus, I stand by the assertion that using 'world's oldest people' meets the definition. I understand it is generally better to cite the 'original' source. However, ironically original newspaper articles are often not available, excepte to paid customers, after two weeks. The Yahoo webgroup has been up for 5+ years and the links there still work, with the sourced information. Therefore, I submit it would be a better idea to link to sources that will remain accessible/free rather than to articles which can be only accessed by paid subscription (Yahoo requires you to register but not to pay). Note that the linked message always includes the source of the message...that is what the group is there for, to document/cite sources and make sure a case is not forgotten/overlooked.Ryoung122 07:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

To Ryoung122, I do not care even if you had been the "world's leading expert". Wikipedia facts should be based on sources, not people who claim they are "experts". Besides, if you really are an expert of some kind, you should have no problem providing sources. Mlewan 16:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Which, by the way, I happen to be. I decide who the world's person is for Guinness World Records.

If you pass the ball in a basketball game and your teammate fails to catch it, is the passer or the receiver at fault?

This is a team effort and I find it a bit condescending for you to expect me to do all the work. I have laid out the foundations, and provided a few citations. The remaining cases can all be located on the web or my 'world's oldest people' webgroup (which, aside from being a source in itself, lists the sources of each claim in the message). Since this is already listed at the bottom of the page, I'm sure you'll be able to find it. Happy hunting.Ryoung122 03:57, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

No one has to fix all the references. There are plenty of articles in Wikipedia without references. However, it should be made clear to the reader that the references are weak - hence the Not Verified banner on top of the article. Mlewan 05:44, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with expecting an article to be referenced. In fact, I created a system of referencing and added the first references. Unfortunately no one else has been willing to do any share of the workload. I do plan to add tags at the appropriate time (i.e. when someone dies and is moved from the 'living' to the 'deceased' list). A tag at the top identifies that the article can be improved.Ryoung122 07:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eleanor Micklebuckle, 129, of Elkhart, Illinois added

Here is the source: http://www.avantnews.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=345 —Preceding unsigned comment added by KevinC2125 (talk • contribs)

That is a joke news story. Note the headline date: Barkhaven, Missouri, November 7, 2018

Last I checked, this is 2007.Ryoung122 02:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Opps.... Sorry Mr. Young I didn't see that. My mistake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KevinC2125 (talk • contribs)

[edit] New info found on LaJean Smith

Note: this may or may not be her.

Here's a link: http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=people&so=2&rank=0&=%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c&gsfn=LaJean&gsln=Smith&sx=&gs1co=2%2cUSA&gs1pl=6%2cArkansas&year=&yearend=&sbo=0&sbor=&ufr=0&wp=4%3b_80000002%3b_80000003&srchb=r&prox=1&db=&ti=0&ti.si=0&gss=angs-b —Preceding unsigned comment added by Plyjacks (talk • contribs)

This is probably her, but only provides proof that she claims to be 118...not proof of birth.Ryoung122 08:26, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much Mr. Young. That was my mistake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Plyjacks (talk • contribs)

But isn't "Ancestry" a reliable source for Census searches? Extremely sexy 11:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

That wasn't a census listing, it was an address listing...in other words, it shows where she lives and that she is identified as '118' years old (proof of current ID). That meets only one of the three requirements for age validation. The other two remain unanswered: proof of birth and proof that the person living today is the same person that is listed in the birth document. Ryoung122 07:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay: thanks for clearing that up then. Extremely sexy 12:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Longevity myths

Greetings, debunked cases and those 130+ should be listed elsewhere. In fact, perhaps a table at the end of the longevity myths page could be made, for such famous instances as Thomas Parr, Christian Drakenberg or Charlie Smith. Likewise, Noah Raby and Mary Ramsey Wood should probably be there. Note the 1850 census suggests he was 'only' 81 years old. Ryoung122 07:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

By the way, who on earth was Christian Drakenberg, Robert: enlighten us? Extremely sexy 17:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The most famous Danish longevity myth of all time!

http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-170951/Christian-Jacobsen-Drakenberg Ryoung122 06:30, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks: so maybe you could also write an article about him. Extremely sexy 13:00, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Verification

Do the people of Wikipedia honestly expect us to provide verification on an article specifically covering the topic of unverified claims? I request that that particular banner be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.152.209.72 (talk • contribs)

This misses the point. You need to verify that there is a CLAIM that has been widely reported in the media and/or historical texts, such as Elizabeth Israel. No one said you had to prove the age claimed. In fact, the point is, these cases are those whose ages haven't been proven. Ryoung122 06:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Urgent question for Robert Young

Why exactly did you delete the following entry, huh?

|Maxima Cabrera-Alfaro |November 18, 1893 |&0000000000000114.000000114 years, &0000000000000208.000000208 days |Uruguay

Extremely sexy 18:26, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The last report on her was a 110th birthday report in 2003. That means she should have been moved to the 'limbo' list...except there's no proof she even claimed to have reached age 113. Hence the deletion.Ryoung122 16:17, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 95% figure, Another question for Ryoung122

The 95% figure that I removed has returned to the article. I understood at the time that it probably referred to a confidence interval.

"Hence, since the 1900 census is a proximate record (not written in 1890), it can be said that there is a near-95%-certainty that Susie was at least 115, but it's still possible that she was in fact 116."

Gives no indication as to where the confidence interval came from, what is this based on? The fact that the 1900 census is proximate does not validate the figure, if the analysis exists, it should be included. BananaFiend 10:46, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, we don't have to have the '95%' figure. But I changed it to a non-verbal 'near-certainty'.Ryoung122 16:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

great! I removed the 95% text from it completely (though from your comment I thought that was done)BananaFiend 09:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ruperto Hernandez

From the World's Oldest People webgroup:

I just learned that Ruperto Hermández from Nicaragua died on Aug. 10, 2007. His claimed birthdate was Jun. 13, 1887, as I posted a few months ago.

http://www.elnuevodiario.com.ni/2007/08/12/nacionales/56094

http://belkysmartinezenlaentrada.blogspot.com/2007/08/muere-el- hombre-mas-viejo-de-nicaragua.html

Someone please update by moving him to the 'died' section. Thanks!Ryoung122 16:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Done. Cheers, CP 17:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Taejo of Goguryeo

What about people like Taejo of Goguryeo, who supposedly lived from 47 AD to 165 AD? Should his name be added to this list? 131.111.24.187 15:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. A case like this seems to be more of a 'reign-era' claim; Japan and several other nations are noted for attempting to stretch their history further into the past than reality, and to do so required increasing the reign-dates. Perhaps you could add another section, 'historical longevity claims'. Note that in the above case we don't even have a claimed date of birth or claimed date of death, only a claimed age (circa 118). Also note the Asian tradition of counting the year of birth as year '1' instead of 'O' (so 118 becomes 119).Ryoung122 23:41, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Carmen Catrileo Hualla

Carmen Hualla has been removed from the list. Does anyone know if this was because she is now deceased or because her claimed age has been disproven?DerbyCountyinNZ (talk) 02:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hryhoriy Nestor

Nestor has died. http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,523677,00.html (German) No exact date is given. --217.87.137.17 (talk) 20:28, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mariam Amash

Hi, this isn't an area that I've done much work in so I'm not going to get into repeat reverts, but it seems to me that a birth certificate, recognised by a modern sovereign state (through the ID card in the story) counts as partial validity i.e. there are some documents to support the claim? --Pretty Green (talk) 07:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately a birth certificate is not enough even if it is "recognised" by a state authority. Most of the other claims listed here also have birth certificates but in most cases they have only been issued relatively recently and none are not backed up by any other data and cannot be considered reliable. As the next section says: "These cases have no publicly available early-life records to support them, but have been made in the press. At the very least, the person should have a claimed year, month and day of birth to be listed here. Claims that don't should be listed in the article about longevity myths." There is not even a published date of birth for Mrs Amash (though you would expect one given there is obviously a birth certificate) so she does not even meet the criteria for the "Recent claims" list let alone the "Partially-validated" list.DerbyCountyinNZ (talk) 10:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Maria Strelnikova

According to this source (in Russian) Maria Strelnikova passed away on May 3, 2005. As she was younger than 116, I did not find a way to include her in the list of past longevity claims and just deleted her entry from the list of "Limbo" cases. I also feel the need to replace her as an example of "grey area" cases but I think it's better to be done by the author of that paragraph. --Vs1969 (talk) 20:17, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Goshada (Gosada) Tsallaeva

Several Russian news agencies published reports on her 120th birthday in 2006. She received congratulations from President Putin, accompanied by a car. Strangely, I found no English translations of this news item, only the French one (RIA Novosti - French). The Russian source is, for example, here (with a photo of her). I have updated her entry to keep it current.

I really believe she is alive now because the media in Russia is obviously monitoring this case and if anything happened, it found its way to the news (like in the case of Maria Strelnikova). And it seems to be correct to move her entry from the "Limbo" list to the "Current claims" list (as this celebration happened less than 2 years ago) but the problem is that it took place in July, so it is not possible, I think, list November 15 as her birthdate (as it was before), but I could not find the exact day of her birth in any of the sources (only 1886 as the year). And all entries in the "Current claims" list mention exact birth dates. So maybe somebody more experienced could take care of this.

Also it worth mentioning than all these news items listed her name as Gosada or Gosade whereas the original article from 2002 used Goshada. --Vs1969 (talk) 20:17, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Today I noticed the reversion of the birth date of Ms.Tsallaeva back to November 15 (and the explanation text now reads as "celebrated her birthday in November 2006). I agree with the reason for reversion (that we cannot extend the claim once it is published), but we still need to do something with the explanation text, because no actual celebration in November took place according to all the sources. Maybe change it to "celebrated her birthday in 2006?".

Also I will try to find the source for the original "November 15, 1886" claim (in all Internet sources available to me I was not able to find this date). The original 2002 story from major Russian newspaper "Argumenty i Fakty" http://gazeta.aif.ru/online/longliver/6/23_01 (Russian) did not include the date of birth as well. --Vs1969 (talk) 20:17, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Swami Bua

Ran across Swami Bua at Earth Elders, born in 1889 and wasn't sure if he should be listed. A blog entry at [1] seems to say he was alive at 116. He seems to have numerous articles about him if you search Google. Jjaazz (talk) 13:24, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] US State and Country listed

Why is it that all of the entrants listed have a section for their country of Residence apart from ppl residing in the US who also have the state listed? It seems a bit strange to me. After all the column is headed as Country and last time I checked 'Illinois, United States' is not a country (although 'United States' is fine).
Even more ridiculously Richard Washington's entry even lists his city of Residence (followed by his state of course and finally his country when on the country is required).
I mean the current leading claim (with no documentation) is a South African from the Limpopo province (an area slightly smaller than Illinois) why do we not list her place of Residence as Limpopo, South Africa?
I really can't see an argument for this. No state in the US is more important than any other state (or region or province or county) in any other part of the world. Furthermore the claim of size or greater population cannot be made seeing as larger states (WA, Australia?) and larger populations per state can be found in other countries around the world.
So why is it listed like this?
I'm all for having as much information as possible but it should be equal if at all (and frankly its of little importance in this wiki to list the state - imo)
86.0.166.75 (talk) 01:04, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry didn't realise I wasn't signed in. That was me btw who made the above post. brob (talk) 01:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)