Talk:Long Island Rail Road/Archive 1

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Moved this page to the correct title of Long Island Rail Road.

--Morven 19:40, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Edit of article Long Island Railroad

Added facts to the Mainline. Removed reference to "Babylon Branch" (there is no such branch other than in customer Timetables) and combined the Montauk Branch facts with now "defunct" "Babylon Branch" facts. Added Atlantic Branch. Edited Long Beach Branch (does not split from the Montauk Branch). Edited West Hempstead Branch. Edited Far Rock Branch.
dunk me 14:45, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] More passenger than freight

I removed this:

"making the LIRR the only Class I Railroad in the U.S. with more passenger than freight service."

The LIRR is certainly not a Class I; at least it's not in any Class I list I've ever seen. Is there a way to fix this statement? As it stands, even if the LIRR was a Class I, Amtrak has only passenger service. --SPUI (talk) 11:17, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't know about it being a Class I, but, unlike most of Amtrak (ie outside the Northeast Corridor), the LIRR actually owns the tracks. In general, it seems that commuter and Amtrak service is run on tracks primarly used for freight. Oh, and Amtrak at least did do freight.

[edit] Schedules

The schedules on the official site are annoyingly incomplete, not showing stuff like whether south shore trains go via St. Albans or Locust Manor. Is there any pattern, or does every branch have trains via each? Also, which branches have trains going to Long Island City via either path? --SPUI (talk) 04:11, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Babylon trains ordinarily go via St. Albans (Montauk Branch), others via Locust Manor (Atlantic Branch). There are exceptions, and the ETT (GOs) specify which particular takes what. This is also true of east end Montauk trains west of Babylon. Some always take the Babylon Branch, some the Central. This is also spelled out in the ETT. You can figure out which LIC trains use the Lower Montauk Line from the public TT by seeing which Jamaica arrivals/departures from/to LIC don't have a Hunterspoint stop. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 09:16, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Category

"Government of New York City" is not appropriate. MTA is a state agency. --Nelson Ricardo 03:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion

The LIRR is the busiest commuter railroad in the US, and yet there are relatively few articles that detail the branches and stations. Other smaller commuter railroad systems have many detailed articles about their stations and branches, like Tri-Rail, SEPTA Regional Rail, MBTA Commuter Rail, and New Jersey Transit. Even the LIRR's sister, Metro-North Railroad has a fair amount of child branch and station articles. So far, the only detailed branches are the Port Washington, Far Rockaway and Atlantic branches. I have a fair amount of knowledge of the LIRR system, but I don't have the time to build all the needed remaining articles. I may take a shot on the Port Jeff branch soon, as it is one of the busiest. I hope someone is enthusiastic enough to expand the LIRR system, especially for the other busy branches: the Ronkonkoma, the Babylon, the Montauk, the Long Beach, etc. --Tinlinkin 05:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've created the branch line articles, now what's needed is text for the main articles. Tinlinkin 05:23, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

It would be nice to have ridership information on the infobox, according to http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/investor/pdf/2005_annual_report.pdf for 2005 there were 80130517 riders in 2005, this is rivaling many radip transit systems in the US. The daily ridership is therefore 219536, but I think average weekday might be a more useful figure. --JVittes 15:43, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jamaica station bus connections

The information presented in [1] is incomplete. This is a station information page for Jamaica. A Queens bus map will also confirm all the bus routes that serve the Jamaica LIRR station.

Bus routes:
MTA Bus: Q6, Q8, Q9, Q25, Q34, Q40, Q41, Q60, Q65 (9 routes)
MTA NYCT Bus: Q20 A/B,24,30,31,43,44 (7 routes, splitting Q20A and Q20B)
This time I will include the Jamaica Av. buses (Q54 and Q56) as they are 1-2 blocks from the station, for a total of 18 bus routes. Tinlinkin 21:51, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] L-I-R-R

In the first sentence, when it says that people refer to it as "L-I-double-R". Does that mean that people literally say "El, eye, double, arr"? Because no one says that, in my experience. People do say "el, eye, arr, arr," though, and I wasn't sure if that's what was meant by what is written. Or has anyone heard people actually use the word "double" when talking about the LIRR? 69.123.177.197 19:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've lived in New York for almost 18 years, and I hear references to the "L-I-double-R" quite often. Larry V (talk | contribs) 02:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

I have removed external links to discussion forums as they are a violation of WP:EL. -- MakeChooChooGoNow 18:09, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Station Infobox

As the number of articles about specific LIRR stations is growing, we are beginning to need a comprehensive LIRR station infobox. There is already an infobox at template:start LIRR box; however, it is inadequate, as it only includes the line, previous station on the line, and next station on the line. There ought to be an infobox that provides information similar to that found on the branch articles, such as Location/Intersection, Station Link (to MTA website), distance to Penn Station, and connections to other bus/subway services, as well as perhaps number of platforms/tracks, services such as taxis available at the station, and if possible usage. Anyone willing to volunteer? If such an infobox already exists, it should be brought to wider usage in station articles. Robert 07:04, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

There was a Template:LIRR line (a special version of Template:Rail line) which wasn't used in any articles until I mondified it and inserted it in some articles. As for the infobox, I think it's a good idea. I wouldn't put taxi services in the infobox, and transit connections seem to be controversial (see WP:NOT a travel guide). I may not get to do it right away, so you'll have to wait for me if no one does it first. Tinlinkin 16:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Many, Many, Many subway station articles uses connections in their boxes. I don't see it becoming a problem. Pacific Coast Highway {blah • Spinach crisis '06! • WP:NYCS} 22:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry that I've been dragging my feet about this issue. An infobox is primarily a stylistic device and is not required to build articles. In fact, creating and using an infobox for most LIRR station articles at this point will just be redundant to existing prose. And since they are stubs, the redundancy will look especially bad. So my priority instead is to create and improve existing articles. Tinlinkin 02:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

I've added a map from the mta website to this article and also removed the tag classifying the article as needing a map. Robert 21:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I've re-added the map needed tag, as the MTA map is fair use, and should be replaced by a Free alternative as soon as possible. --CComMack (t•c) 01:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think we're going to get a good free use map. This article is perfectly within the terms of fair use. Robert 20:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
It's totally possible to make a good freely-licensed map. See River Line, Washington Metro, or CSX. --NE2 00:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] M1/M3

The caption for the image Image:Long Island Rail Road.jpg on the article was just recently changed to state that it was an M1 car instaid of an M3 which was written there. I was under the impression that it was an M3 becuase they are newer; however, it is virtually impossible to tell from the image since the M1 and M3 cars are nearly identical. So, perhaps the caption to the image should read "M1/M3" which is pretty common in other places.

M1/M3 (railcar)

Robert 20:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Closed stations

It's nice to see that someone is filling in the station listings on the branch line articles with closed stations. But now I kindly ask that the date (or the year at least) of closure be added (e.g. closed March 16, 1998). Also, add italics to the existing bold to indicate closed stations, for further avoidance of confusion with current service.

Example:

Routes
ML PW HP MT AT Station /
Location		 Station
link		 Mi (km)
to Penn
Station		 Connections/Notes
Penny Bridge
Maspeth		 closed March 16, 1998

I's still refining the convention (and anybody can chime in with further suggestions), so this may change in the near future, but I think this is adequate for now.

In an additional note, individual station articles should not link to abandoned stations at the moment, only existing services. Thanks. Tinlinkin 04:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok.

[edit] Full list of former lines

This information is mostly from a 1941 PRR map.

--NE2 01:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

East Bushwick Branch is former? Didn't they have a small locomotive get loose at Fresh Pond Yard a couple years ago, smash a track welding truck, and roll over the English Kill bridge before a FDNY Lieutenant hopped aboard and pulled the brake? A couple months ago the tracks east and west of a busy grade crossing, less than a mile from the end of the line, were showing bare metal, not all rust. Jim.henderson 02:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry - this is a list of all lines. --NE2 04:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I've added all these lines but the Woodside Branch (which was abandoned before 1891) to the list in the article. --NE2 17:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Change of Image?

Was their a fair-use violation with the old map? I think the previous one, the one from MTA, is better than the current map. Does this image bring it in line with other rail lines? --Meadowbrook 05:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the old one did not satisfy fair use criterion #1: "No free equivalent is available or could be created that would adequately give the same information." I think a separate schematic showing the stations would be more useful than adding the stations to a scale map. --NE2 05:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I've now made that schematic. --NE2 15:33, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going to lie, that's a cool image. What program did you use? Would it be possible to include zones? --Meadowbrook 18:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I used Macromedia Freehand to create the map. Do you have a list of the zones? I can certainly add them. --NE2 18:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Electrification

removals

--NE2 15:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Presidents

I think the list of Presidents should be split into its own article, e.g. List of Presidents of the Long Island Rail Road. Mackensen (talk) 16:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not stopping you. --NE2 17:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
By the way, if you have any other suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them. I'm hoping to bring this to featured article quality. I believe the "PRR Chronology" references will have to be replaced with more reliable sources for that to happen. --NE2 18:07, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I've requested a few books on the LIRR through interlibrary loan; hopefully at least one will arrive. --NE2 06:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Full list of affiliated or predecessor railroads

This is nested by mergers and reorganizations except where a company was not merged.

  • Flushing, North Shore and Central Railroad inc. 1874, disintegrated???
    • Flushing and North Side Railroad inc. 1868, merged 1874*
    • Central Railroad of Long Island inc. 1871, merged 1874*
    • Central Railroad Extension inc. 1873, merged 1874*
    • Whitestone and Westchester Railroad inc. 1871, merged 1874*
    • North Shore Railroad inc. 1863, merged 1874*
    • North Shore and Port Washington Railroad merged 1874
    • Roslyn and Huntington Railroad inc. 1874, merged 1874
Branches
  • Degnon Terminal Railroad merged 1928???
  • Southern Hempstead Branch Railroad unknown
  • Valley Stream Branch Railroad unknown
  • New York and Long Island Terminal Railway unknown
  • New York and Hempstead Railroad inc. 1871
Streetcar and boat lines

--NE2 03:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] LIRR station succession boxes

For a discussion about the succession boxes used in LIRR station articles, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trains#Succession boxes and its subsections #More about services vs. lines and #Further LIRR discussion. Tinlinkin 14:25, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Streetcar lines

Some of this information is from [2] and [3]. Some alignments are from [4]. It appears Jamaica Junction was at Brewer Boulevard and Conduit Avenue.

  • Long Island Electric Railway: Drew Street to 95th Street/Liberty Avenue on 101st Avenue and Rockaway Boulevard? or maybe simply along Liberty Avenue, since the line was abandoned in 1914
  • Long Island Electric Railway: 95th Street to 160th Street Jamaica on Liberty Avenue, Liverpool Street, and South Road
  • Long Island Electric Railway: 160th Street via Jamaica Junction and Hook Creek to Far Rockaway on South Road, Brewer Boulevard, Rockaway Boulevard, Mott Avenue, Lawrence Avenue, Wanser Avenue, Lord Avenue, and private ROW onto the LIRR
  • New York and Long Island Traction Company: 95th Street/Liberty Avenue via Jamaica Junction, Rosedale, and Valley Stream to Freeport on Rockaway Boulevard, South Conduit Avenue, and Sunrise Highway in Queens, and on Atlantic Avenue, Bedell Street, and Main Street in Freeport
  • New York and Long Island Traction Company? Long Island Electric Railway?: 160th Street Jamaica to Belmont Park on 160th Street, Jamaica Avenue, and Hempstead Avenue
  • New York and Long Island Traction Company: Belmont Park to Hempstead
  • New York and Long Island Traction Company: 212th Street Queens Village via Mineola and Hempstead to Freeport via Jamaica Avenue in Queens, and on Nassau Road and Main Street in Freeport
  • Ocean Electric Railway: Far Rockaway via Hammels to Rockaway Park on LIRR
  • Ocean Electric Railway: Hammels (Beach 76th Street?) to Neponsit (Beach 149th Street?) on Rockaway Beach Boulevard and possibly other streets
  • Seashore Municipal Railroad??: Freeport (Atlantic Avenue) south to Scott's Dock between Miller Avenue and Ocean Avenue
  • Jamaica and South Shore Railroad??: Far Rockaway to Roche's Beach on private ROW from the LIRR, Beach 20th Street, New Haven Avenue/Brookhaven Avenue, and Beach 19th Street
  • LIRR: Garden City to Salisbury Plain on LIRR
  • Glen Cove Railroad: Glen Cove Landing to Sea Cliff Landing
  • Nassau County Railway: Sea Cliff Landing to Sea Cliff Station
  • Huntington Railroad: Huntington Harbor via Huntington Station, Schwab Road, and Melville to Amityville Dock
  • Babylon Railroad: Amityville to Babylon to Fire Island Dock
  • Northport Traction Company: Northport Station to Northport Harbor

--NE2 08:22, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History From 1901-1945

I thought the history from 1901 to 1945 was entirely too brief and excluded important parts of the story during some of the railroad's most important years. I added a couple paragraphs that I hope will ameliorate the problem. Most of the information comes from the research I did for a couple of articles published in the last two issues of the Long Island Historical Journal. I apologize for submitting them anonymously; I had not quite figured out how the system works. Sean Kass 05:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for contributing; your additions look good. I hope to receive Steel Rails to the Sunrise through interlibrary loan soon, and will work more on the history, both pre-PRR and during and post-PRR. --NE2 05:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)