Talk:London Underground in popular culture
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[edit] "GTA4: London"
This strikes me as nothing more than wild speculation - does it really merit inclusion?! Nick Cooper 08:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- Now deleted. Nick Cooper 01:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Harry Potter/V for Vendetta nonsense
Someone seems insistent on including the ridiculous claim that a reference to "Fawkes" in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone is connected to V for Vendetta. I don't see any evidence that JK Rowling is a comics fan, let alone one of V for Vendetta in particular, so to claim that her inspiration for using the name "Fawkes" comes from it rather than 400 years of Guy Fawkes in British culture is utter nonsense. What's a more likely influence, the thirty or so Guy Fawkes Nights she lived through - more likely as not celebrating a fair few of them - before finishing the book, or a (in real terms) relatively obscure comic book she probably had not even read? Fawkes is not some obscure and marginal historical figure, virtually forgotten about until Alan Moore used him, but rather an integral part of almost every British person's childhood. Unless someone - I won't hold my breath! - can come up with an explicit statement from Rowling herself making this direct connection, it remains nothing more than speculation, and as such has no place on Wikipedia in general, let alone this particular page. Nick Cooper 07:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- Good unbiased start for a discussion! Lets start with the obvious. Far from being obscure, V for Vendetta was quite popular in England when JK was beginning her books and was a successful movie from Warner Brothers that shares creative staff with the Harry Potter movies. Both V and Dumbledore are fierce opponents of Fascism, but oppose the Government. V is an anti-hero that uses Guy Fawkes' methods to force people to think for themselves. In contrast, Guy Fawkes is considered by most British to be a villianous traitor, making him an odd choice of inspiration for a character that supports the good side in Harry Potter. Then there is the as yet unexplained map of the Underground on Dumbledore's knee.
- For real oddities, there is the fact that both Dumbledore and Alan Moore have anarchistic tendenancies, Alan Moore claims to be a magician (a real one), and Moore used the character name Harry Potter as a major character in one of his books prior to Rowling's appropriation for her series. Is Alan Moore the inspiration for Dumbledore? Who knows, but given her vast readings on anything related to magic, she probably is familar with him and his Promethea series. Here is an excert of an purported Alan Moore letter on Rowling showing that he is familar with her:
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- "I’m sorry to report that I’m experiencing trouble in getting that article on J.K. Rowling (“J.K. Rowling: Burn her! Burn the Witch!”) together, like I promised. It’s the lack of any real hard evidence that’s difficult to get around. The only points that I’ve so far assembled that suggest we would be right to immolate the popular children’s-book author are as follows:
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- 1. How knoweth Goody Rowling so much of the Devil’s Art, lest in truth she be a screeching hag that rideth in the night with her dark Master?
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- 2. That Goody Rowling hath in spite caused a foul-mouthed homunculus to sprout atop the head of Terry Pratchett, wherefore he must always wear an hat, that it should be concealed.
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- 3. That Goody Rowling hath an other teat concealed within her arme-pytte, whereat she giveth suck to her familiar, called Pyssewicket.
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- 4. She sinketh not in water.
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- 5. Burn her! Burn the Witch!
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- Like I say, it’s not much of an argument to base our efforts on if we are really serious about getting this chick set fire to. Also, when I told you that I definitely remembered seeing a copy of an earlier, more sexually provocative book in the series called Harry Potter and the Choronzon Working, it turns out this was only in a dream. Sorry."http://www.biroco.com/other/moore.htm
- Since it is possible that you are unfamilar with the tools that Wikipedia provides to contest material that you personally disagree with (other than the delete key), I've reposted with the appropriate tag so others can comment or seek out additional references. Regards to your demand for a direct quote from Rowling, unless you WP:OWN this article, it isn't your call. Since Rowling has said the Dumbledore scar has meaning, it would seem that this is the most logical one until she confirms or denies it. Libertycookies 13:36, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
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- The shakiest foundation of your "evidence" is that the name "Fawkes" appeared in the first Potter book, finished in 1995, while the film of V for Vendetta did not get made until ten years later, so the fact that it shared "creative staff" with the Potter films is completely irrelevent. Before the film appeared, while popular within comic-reading circles, V for Vendetta was unknown to the vast majority of the British population. Unlike the story of Guy Fawkes, of course, which pretty much every child knows. And Rowling "probably" (i.e. your speculation) being familiar with Moore Promethea again proves nothing, since it also post-dates her writing of the first book.
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- As to Alan Moore using the name "Harry Potter" before Rowling did, that's not very significant, given that neither name is particularly uncommon in Britain. If it was "Harrison Pretorious" you might have a point, but it isn't, so you don't. And what does Moore being "familar with" Rowling prove, anyway? Your bizarre theory surely rests more on Rowling not only being familiar with Moore, but one of his works in particular.
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- What you are doing is putting 2 and 2 together and getting 42, in a manner no less preposterous than if someone suggested that the Davy Jones character in Pirates of the Caribbean is actually named after the actor out of The Monkees, rather than the centuries-old legend of Davy Jones’ Locker. The bottom line, however, is that at the very least what you are proposing is original research, and therefore inadmissable. Nick Cooper 15:31, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
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- Mr. Cooper, I remind you that wikipedia is based on consensus, and so far you have none. Your comparisons are spurious to say the least. Other than name there is no similarity between the Monkees singer and Davy Jones character, but there are strong similarities to V and Dumbledore and less so to Fawkes and Guy Fawkes. There is a tool to challenge OR, which I have added for you. You may be right, or someone else may find the necessary references given the opportunity. Unless you can show cause that the entry is harmful, please follow process. Libertycookies 16:05, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
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- Well, clearly since you have yet to provide any proof of another source where you may have got this theory from, one can only conclude that you thought of it yourself, making it de facto original research. Nick Cooper 16:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
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There have been some interesting discussions about this phrase - "Dumbledore's phoenix is named Fawkes in a possible nod to V for Vendetta whose title character makes his lair in the London Underground and fashions himself after Guy Fawkes." - and it is an interesting concept. Unfortunately, it is uncited and does indeed appear to be original research. The simplest solution is to remove this bit entirely, removing this contentious, and somewhat irrelevant information. The V for Vendetta relation to the london underground is already noted. The Harry Potter/Dumbledore scar is also noted. Both links are quite adequately made. If you were able to provide a source where Moore's influence on Rowling's work was discussed and it was pointed out that Dumbledore was based on V, hence the scar, then it would make an interesting and sourced addition to the list. But despite being tagged, no other editor, nor significantly the originator of this statement has been able to back this claim up. Interestingly here are numerous theories put forward by potter afficionados about the meaning of the scar. None of them mention V for Vendetta. Also I might mention that Fawkes is a very appropriate for a name for a phoenix, rising from the ashes, recalling the original Guy Fawkes, consumed each year by fire. I would not dream of adding this of course, because it is POV, OR and unsourced. For the same reason, I'm afraid, that the claim of a V for Vendetta link also cannot be made in this context. Benea 01:01, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- Seems a fairly clear reference to Guy Fawkes to me, like Benea says, it's a fire reference rather than any comment Dumbledore's political affiliations. But even if it was - what's it got to do with a page on the Underground anyway? "Man with a Underground shaped scar on his knee may have named pet after man who hangs out in Underground is a spurious connection at best. (And since we're on the subject, I don't think Dumbledore's scar is significant in the slightest - JKR said she is "fond" of it and she may explain it one day. I think she's fond of it because it's a funny line, and any explanation will be slightly whimsical, like Dumbledore himself.)Richard of York 08:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC)