Talk:Logos
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[edit] Logos, tao, and dharma
Removed from Word when I turned it into a disambiguation page:
Logos also has parallels to the eastern concepts of Tao and dharma.
Can anyone find a place to put this? The assertion doesn't come with any other information to support it (though I don't doubt it), and definitely doesn't belong in word. --Ardonik 21:38, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)
- I don't really see how the Greek logos parallels the Tao or dharma, except loosely. If I understand the concepts well enough, Tao is usually associated with flowing with the world, which could have much closer ties to other Greek words than logos. Dharma is generally considered to have to do with cosmic order, which would make it much closer to the Greek kosmos, which is the direct origin of our "cosmos," and can be literally translated as being some combination of "order" and "universe." The only way logos could be understood in such a sense is in the New Testament Greek texts, and Christian dogma differs quite a bit from the more agnostic, ambiguous cosmic views of the Dharmic traditions. In short, I don't see any reason not to permanently remove the sentence in question. Ratiuglink (talk) 21:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
- Did you notice the comment you answered is three and a half years old? The sentence is long since gone from the article, though it does still mention that tao is used as the Chinese translation of logos. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 05:11, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] About logos
I was heard about logos in my politics lesson at Fudan University in Shanghai. My teather appreciated it very much. at here, as a Chinese, I want to tell the difference between Logos and Tao(道)。 In some aspects, they are quite familiar.Logos express by words, but tao usually can not been expressed. I have to feel it and understand it by your self. PZ
- the Logos does not express by words. expression by words in some cases is considered to be a part of the logos. but in general it is very much in tune with the concept of Tao as principle order of the universe.Some thing 23:11, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Tao relates to the Platonic doctrine of Monad and Logos (or Dyad). This doctrine is not discussed in this article. The monad has other names including "the idea of the Good" and "One." There is a "negative theology" of the monad that is syncretic with the first Chapter of Lao Tzu. My view is that the monad can be identified with the Tao while the logos (as the principle of generation out of nothing) can be identified with the Tai Ji. Happy to discuss Bernie Lewin 04:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Logos; Word, The
It says in th section about Christianity "In Christianity, it is often suggested that the prologue of the Gospel of John calls Jesus the Logos"
Shouldn't this be changed to, "In Christianity, the Gospel of John calls Jesus the Logos in the prologue." or something along those lines. This is because it isn't suggested that he was referred to as that. The Gospel of John was written in Greek and the word used was Logos. - Amazon10x 23:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
- Due to no response, I have edited the page and removed "it is often suggested that" from the opening sentence - Amazon10x 02:17, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Logos = Ratio
I believe that logos means fraction or ratio in Greek math. That's why logarithms are called logarithms: logos-arithmos = ratio-number. Logarithms can be used to measure ratios, e.g. at a logarithmic axis.
The several meanings of Greek logos and Latin ratio seem to connect nicely. We have logos = ratio = fraction. Since proportions can be expressed as fractions, like two-to-three, 2::3, 2:3 or 2/3, we also have the meaning proportion. Being able to see things in their proper proportions has to do with being sensible, rational, knowing (rhyme and) reason. But rationality deals with that which can be verbalised, hence with words.
In math, rational numbers are numbers that can be written as fractions, describing those proportions the Greeks would call commensurable (actually, that's the latinised word; what's the Greek???), where as irrational numbers are those that cannot be written as fractions, realted to incommensurable proportions (abhorred by the Pythagoreans).
Now, I don't really know this stuff, but if it's not too contrived, someone else can perhaps incorporate some of it into the article. --Niels Ø 17:38, 20 February 2006 (UTC), rev. --Niels Ø 07:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
- Me again: If the above is correct (and no-one has denied it here!), I think ratio should go into the list of "similar concepts" in the article, but being no expert and having no sources, I will not do it myself.--Niels Ø 20:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
- Since ratio = proportion (mathematics), i'm linking one of the definitions of logos, "proportion" to "Proportionality (mathematics)" Onionmon 20:46, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Intuitively or otherwise Neils is spot on. What is missing from this article is the meaning of Logos that is so important to the history of the formal sciences at least to Kepler, viz., the Pythagorean meaning that was exulted in Platonism. The two words are logos and ana-logia. logos was translated by Boethius as ratio and analogia as proportion. All rational numbers are logos. Irrationals are a-logos and 1, 2, 4, 8 is an analogia. In Pythagorean Platonism the emanation of creation is by analogia, an analogia of the binary one and not-one. From middle Platonism this eventual emerges in Proclus. I am happy to collaborate to fill this big whole at the centre of this article Bernie Lewin 04:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Logos = Reason or Purpose
I believe in the above, stating that Logos = Ratio (reason or purpose). I think that in John Logos means reason or purpose.
Sections from the main article with what I think they should say:
"In the beginning was the purpose [Logos], and the purpose [Logos] was with God, and the purpose [Logos] was God." (KJV with logos translated to purpose). Perhaps in our English the last clause should be “and the purpose was God's”.
From main article: "John turns the concept of the Logos on its head when he claimed "the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us" (v. 14)."
This quote should be:
"the purpose [Logos] became flesh and dwelt among us" (v. 14).
I think this makes sense. That is that God had purposed to have the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ (v.14) from the beginning (v.2). And that God had this purpose with the earth (the reason the earth was created) with Him at all times (v.1) (Not that the Lord Jesus Christ pre-existed with God the Father). And that this was God the Fathers purpose (v.1).
I know some religions believe that this is what John means in his writing. Should this go into the main article?
Perhaps this goes deeper than this. This might be referring to God's purpose to have us all as sons and daughters of God and for God to be our Father (2Cr 6:18), which is possible through the Lord Jesus Christ.
- This is definitely interesting. Ianus Maximus 21:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Logos was the Faculty of Reason?
The article says, "By the time of Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, logos was the term used to describe the faculty of human reason...." This contradicts the judgment of at least two great scholars of ancient Greek: James Adam (The Republic of Plato, 2nd edition by D.A. Rees, vol. 2, p. 70) and John Burnet (Plato's Euthyphro, Apology of Socrates, and Crito, p. 188). (In support of his claim that logos "is not the faculty of reason", Adam cites an article titled "Vernunft" ("Reason") by Friedrich Schleiermacher.) According to Adam and Burnet, logos in Plato always means speech, statement, argument, account, explanation, principle, rule. Isokrates 00:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- In his The Ethics of Aristotle (1900), Burnet says, "The word [logos] is never used in Plato or Aristotle in the sense of Reason [i.e., faculty of Reason], though [logon echein] may be translated 'to have a reason' or, in that sense, 'to be rational' " (p. 488, Burnet's emphasis). This, he thought, was true of "ordinary Greek" in general (see his p. 35).Isokrates 20:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Logos re-understood from post-positivistic semiotic/linguistic
Ugh. that title-thing I just wrote could give a person hives.
This is what I am trying to get at, however. We (at least most of us, in the Western world--by philosophical reckoning--from about 1850 until the later 1900s, or even now) have been steeped in the tradition of language as representative and correlational. This refers to the way we have tended to see words as "only" words which are separate from, and independent of, the "real" concepts, ideas or things to which they point.
Many postmoderns (or pick your favorite "post-") have followed from the work of folks such as Derrida, in suggesting that there is nothing "mere" about language; that it is at least as much a component of what we know as "reality" than are other "things".
This is important because it brings new light into what has been a problematic text: "In the beginning was the Word (logos). . ." Many theologians have worked around this mystery (how can God be "word") by expanding the meaning of "word" or by moving it into some arena of particular meaning. To many this has been unsatisfactory; it is difficult to comprehend why these few verses would be delivered in a voice so very different from the rest of the book of John.
But what if we were to accept the possibility that the Scriptures were inspired? What if they were written/revised/spoken/rewritten so that they had meaning for the present audience, but also would speak to readers from different times and places? This is not such a large step to take if one accepts, as has the majority of the Christian Church from the beginning until now, that there is a God and that this God is omniscient and not bound by time.
Wittgenstein in particular might be illuminating. Here is a paragraph from the Wikipedia article: __start quote___ On Wittgenstein's account, language is inextricably woven into the fabric of life, and as part of that fabric it works unproblematically. Philosophical problems arise, on this account, when language is forced from its proper home and into a metaphysical environment, where all the familiar and necessary landmarks have been deliberately removed. Removed for what appear to be sound philosophical reasons, but which are, for Wittgenstein, the very source of the problem. Wittgenstein describes this metaphysical environment as like being on frictionless ice; where the conditions are apparently perfect for a philosophically and logically perfect language (the language of the Tractatus), where all philosophical problems can be solved without the confusing and muddying effects of everyday contexts; but where, just because of the lack of friction, language can in fact do no actual work at all. There is much talk in the Investigations, then, of “idle wheels” and language being “on holiday” or a mere "ornament", all of which are used to express the idea of what is lacking in philosophical contexts. To resolve the problems encountered there, Wittgenstein argues that philosophers must leave the frictionless ice and return to the “rough ground” of ordinary language in use; that is, philosophers must “bring words back from their metaphysical to their everyday use.”
_____end quote_____
Especially if we simplify a bit to capture the main thrust, something like "On Wittgenstein's account, language is inextricably woven into the fabric of life, and as part of that fabric it works unproblematically. Philosophical problems arise. . .when language is forced from its proper home and into a metaphysical environment. . .. Wittgenstein argues that . . . philosphers must "bring words back from their metaphysical to their everyday use."
Now the reference to God as "the Word" assumes a strikingly new tone. This is, by the way, a tone that fits more easily with the rest of John's gospel than does the disembodied theological referent. John, the apostle "whom Jesus loved" gives us a gospel that is more 'human' than the synoptics.
What a way to speak to us about the incarnation--the embodiment of God into human flesh.
I completely understand that this is probably not a meaning that the original hearers (probably speaking Aramaic, not Greek) would grasp in the same way as a postmodern might. Yet if we remember the striking account of Acts 14:
When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they yelled out in the language of Lycaonia, "The gods have turned into humans and have come down to us!" The people then gave Barnabas the name Zeus, and they gave Paul the name Hermes, because he did the talking. The temple of Zeus was near the entrance to the city. Its priest and the crowds wanted to offer a sacrifice to Barnabas and Paul. So the priest brought some bulls and flowers to the city gates. (Acts 14:11-13 Contemporary English Version)
All is to say that the audience witnessing the event, as well as the audience later reading the account after the Gospel of John had been written, would have no problem with the idea that the gods might descend from the heavens and walk around, interacting with ordinary people. Note that the priests of the temple of Zeus apparently believed it.
So if it makes sense to frame "Logos" as "the Word" (rather than as logic or concept or ...) in both the original and present situations, perhaps we don't need to work so hard at bringing in an enlightenment-era account. Though it certainly would not have been heard the same way by a First Century and Twentieth Century audience, the word works in both cases.
I realize that this is not the place for new theories or speculations. However, I would be completely surprised if this were new--I believe it likely that this point has been covered by theologians of the last few decades.
I include it because the things that were included (Tao, mathematics, etc.) seemed way farther afield than a reading of the text with rather ordinary meanings. And it just might be that Wittgenstein understood this, though I have not run across any Wittgensteinian theology. After all, he was known as "the Gospel man" for handing out copies in the war.
Also, I do understand this is much longer than usual, but it is a rather complex idea. It is because of this that I thought it better to post here than directly to the article. This isn't a campaign, I don't have much at stake whether it gets included or not. It does, however, seem to me to meet the basic criteria for a reasoned argument, and seems much more plausible than many. . .
Roy 04:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
If one reads the initial definition of the term on this page, "Logos" has already been surrendered to semiology on this page. I came here in hopes of introducing the concept of classical "Logos" as it is opposed to "Chaos" that preceded it in the Greek cosmological sense. One does not have to subscribe to this idea to preserve it, yet the definition offered to any casual Wiki reader reduces "Logos" to a mere facet of linguistics.
Sad, really. If one wants to understand modern linguistics, one has to have the idea of "western" start somewhere - Logos is a good place. If one wants to put forward Derrida's idea of "false binary oppositions" being endemic to western thinking, it would be helpful to understand "logos" vs. "chaos" unmolested by reductionism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.197.221.147 (talk) 22:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Citation
In the section "Use in Christianity", the Author uses incorrect style when quoting from the Bible. The proper citation style is:
(Book Name) (Chapter Number):(Verse Number)
For Example: Genesis 5:1 means Verse One of Chapter Five of the Book of Genesis.
I am not sure where in the Bible the verse "the logos became flesh and walked among us" (the verse that must be cited) comes from.
Ianus Maximus 21:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Citations needed
In the claim that "the word was God" is incorrectly translated, a citation is necessary. Additionally, if examples are going to be provided of a more "correct" translation, at least a few should be from commonly accepted Biblical translations - as a Christian who is familiar with a wide variety of English Biblical translations, I had never heard of any of the translations provided here as examples. If you want to make the point as to which version is in common use, I suggest using a passage from the New King James Version, the New International Version, the Revised Standard Version, or a similar widely accepted text. Using obscure translations doesn't demonstrate either that there was an error or that the "corrected" version is in common use. --Tim4christ17 talk 16:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Small side note - NWT Version of the bible is used by over 6 Million persons worldwide in over 69 languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Translation_of_the_Holy_Scriptures#Editions_and_languages) =- 43 09:53 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.244.82.39 (talk) 09:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Logos and Christianity
Logos and Christianity as a specific topic should NOT be included in this article. Instead, there ought to be a redirect link at the heading. All that is needed on Logos and Christianity within this article is a brief one paragraph mention that concepts surrounding 'logoi' have played a critical role in Christianity historical. A separate page would allow for greater and more specific elucidation of the topic. Furthermore, reducing and redirecting Logos and Christianity would all the original intent of this article to be prominent.
I will delete this section, replace it with a brief summary and redirect in five days, unless there is substantial reason not to proceed. DoNNNald 06:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
It is asserted without any backing evidence that the common and most accepted Translation of John 1:1 is false. Quotation of a selected few, of thousands of translations is not sufficient evidence for such a claim. I will edit it to show both POVs. --Mathaytace 19:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
- I have reverted your changes, not because I dont agree with what you are doing, but because in the process you removed the different translations. I think that in order to establish what is the most accepted translation, we need to include the others and explain why they differ. John Vandenberg 02:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm fine with putting some of --Mathaytace 02:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)the translations back, but I want to see that both sides are represented. The last writer, whoever it was, made assertions that are of a minority opinion, with no evidence. --Mathaytace 02:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC) Lets leave some of the translations, but insert my more neutral text. Sound fair?
--Mathaytace 03:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
- That looks a lot better. I've added the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures translation back into the list, so readers can see it in context of the other translations. John Vandenberg 05:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I have added an explanation of the reason for differing translation. There is no proof of "minority" opinion. I have removed bias adjectives in favor of neutral adjectives.
The text above me is unsigned, and of a different author. The current version is slanted toward the alternate translation. I have removed references to biblical texts concerning the equality/inferiority of Jesus, as they are irrelevant. I cleaned up the language of the Traditional section, removing words that cast unnecessary doubt on the interpretation. The Alternate version of the text is argued for, rather than offered as a possiblility. I have added a neutrality tag for this reason. This is obviously a work in progress.
--Mathaytace 11:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- The section on whether Logos is God or a god should be a lot shorter. It should say that traditiionally Logos has been identified as God, that more recent translations sometimes identify Logos as a god, and why. There's a page devoted to John 1:1 where the rest of the details would be welcome. Jonathan Tweet 14:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you Mr. Tweet. I edited the post so that the part in contention gives two short blurbs of equal weight, with no support for either position. The Deeper translation issues really should be addressed in John 1:1 article. Thank you for your clarifying opinion Mr. Tweet.
--Mathaytace 02:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Mathaytace, before removing large slabs of text, allow some discussion to occur first. I dont agree with this section being summed up in two short blurbs at present. The meaning of this passage underpins major theological debates of what Logos is in terms of the various Christian faiths, so it is not to be glossed over.
I would be happy to see the translations move over to John 1:1 as Jonathan has suggested, and Jesus the Logos and Christology are possibly an appropriate place to discuss the finer details of this subject, but I would expect that the section on this article would be a good summary of those two articles. John Vandenberg 03:03, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- I reverted the deletion. I don't like to see information lost. It should be moved to John 1:1 before being deleted, and I'd rather see it summarized in any event. Jonathan Tweet 03:10, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
The problem is, as it stands, the text of the article is biased towards the "a god" translation of the text.
My goal is to remove the bias. --Mathaytace 12:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- You can satisfy that goal without eliminating useful information. First, transfer the information to John 1:1 if it's not already there. Then summarize it here instead of just deleting it. Jonathan Tweet 13:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- Mathaytace, removing information is rarely the solution to fixing a bias. A bias is best corrected by adding higher quality information; the best quality POV will shine through to an educated reader when both are given the appropriate amount of space. In this case, translation A is used in commonly used bible translations, while Translation B is used by obscure translations. Anyone who already sits in camp A will discard the camp B translation, and the same goes for the varied sets of people that prefer Translation B. Anyone who doesnt know what camp they prefer is unlikely to be reading this article to work out what camp they sit in; they will be predominately be reading this for academic reasons, and will probably be agnostic or atheistic. We have a duty to present all points of view in an academic manner. If you want to write a bible study that presents a specific POV, Wikibooks: Bible Studies is the place to go. John Vandenberg 10:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Most of the section entitled "Use in Christianity" is entirely off topic and should rather be placed in a section titled, perhaps, "non-Trinitarian views of John 1:1" and probably not in this article at all. This article is "about logos (logoi) in ancient Greek philosophy, mathematics, rhetoric, and Christianity" and not about the Divinity of Christ, which is what the editor of this section is apparently trying to argue here. If discussion of interpretations of John 1:1 belongs a "Use in Christianity" section of this article, then its use in Christianity is what should be discussed and, historically, the Logos has been "use[d by] Christianity" to mean Jesus is one with God. Now, if someone wants to add a section titled something like "Uses of the Word Logos and Interpretation of John 1:1 that most Christians Throughtout History Would Consider Heretical", then fine by me. They can write whole sections on how non-Trinitarian views of John 1:1 were discussed and rejected by the church hundreds of years ago and have continued to be throughout its history. They could also throw in that a belief in the divinity of Christ has historically been considered a prerequesite for calling oneself a Christian.
Also, the statement "Christians who profess belief in the Trinity often consider this to be a central text in their belief that Jesus is the Divine Son of God. Usually in connection with the idea that God and Jesus are equals." is both poor gramar and patently false. It should be, in fact, so obviously false to anyone theologically educated enough to be posting here that it causes one to wonder if it wasn't written to be purposefully misleading to the uninformed. "Christians who prefess belief in the Trinity" do not believe that "God and Jesus are equals," they believe that God and Jesus are one, or, to quote the Nicene Creed, that Jesus is "very God of very God." Jsminch 23:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
This section is very badly written. There are a number of sentence fragments dangling around, there don't appear to be topic sentences at the beginning of paragraphs, placement of the paragraphs themselves seems pretty random; In general, this is difficult reading. Have any of you actually tried to read this section beginning to end recently? Some examples:
- "Usually in connection with the idea that God and Jesu* s are equals." - This isn't a complete sentence.
- "Other scholars, however, disagree with this translation and the subsequent interpretation of the text." - Is this any way to begin a paragraph?
- "The literal Greek text reads: “In beginning was the word, and the word was toward the god, and god was the word.”" - Again, a bizarre way to begin a paragraph. At this point it becomes religiously technical in a way that I have a difficult time understanding. You never really adequately explain that we're talking about translation issues, so when you begin to discuss details of translation, it's very difficult to follow.
- "Additionally, the word for "god' in it's second occurence is significantly without the definite article "the". " - This has a misspelling and it's using the incorrect form of the word "its."
There are more (probably many more) problems than these. I stopped reading because it was making my brain hurt. Generally speaking, this whole section feels way too long to be on topic, and way too random and technical to be in anyway useful. Couldn't you just say that there are translation details pertaining to the use of this word that are significant to christians, broadly explain the significance and point interested parties to another page with more information? And if you take me up on that recommendation, perhaps you should proof-read the new page?
- oh dear, this paragraph is really bad. Most of it seems to be original research completely innocent of knowledge of Greek. You cannot simply equate Greek ho with English the, this leads to completely false conclusions. Less OR and more quoting of sources please. dab (𒁳) 14:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
See Entry #5 on John 1:1 for in depth discussion of possible translation options for John 1:1. Fwnid 17:24, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
- The author(s) of this section obviously has an agenda. His/her translation of John 1 is not backed up by honest Biblical research. In addition, refering to the Word as "a god" contradicts the rest of the Bible. If John had been promoting polytheism or paganism, the Gospel of John would have never been included as part of scriptures. This interpretation of Logos as it pertains to Christianity is unacceptable. This article is not the appropriate forum for a Wiki contributor to argue that he/she knows more about ancient Greek and Christian dogma than centuries worth of published and accredited Christian scholars. - RW 05/19/2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.67.131.215 (talk) 10:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Disambiguation in two places
I have just disambiguated several wikilinks in this article to point to an appropriate unambiguous article (e.g., a piped link to German language instead of just a link to German, which is a dab page). There were two links I had trouble dealing with, and I'd like to ask that someone who's more familiar with this article's subject matter try to do something about them.
1. In the section "Jung's analytical psychology," there was a link to eros. That page is a dab page, but none of the targets seemed suitable for this reference, so I removed the wikilink. If one of the targets at eros is actually appropriate here, or if an appropriate page can be created (and listed at eros), please change accordingly.
2. In the "See also" section, there is a link to Sophia. I couldn't tell which, if any, of the dab targets on that page is appropriate here; in this case, I didn't remove the link because it would seem stupid to have an unlinked item in the "See also" section. Please proceed as for eros above.
Thanks, Tkynerd 23:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Please, let me add that the assertion that logos being both "God" and "in God" is mutually exclusive is naive in that it misses the discussion in John 17, "I in thee,and and thou in me, etc." which is the basis for the ancient Christian understanding of "circumincession" which underlies the very basis of Christian experience, and that the writer should have considered the logos Christology of the Early Church and the fact that the very difficulty of such passages is evidence in itself of their veracity /originality with the text.
Thx all, [rdeaster@wbs.edu] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.15.100.145 (talk) 17:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Heraclitus
Assertions about Heraclitus require clear and precise citation to competent secondary sources. Is logos the same as Fire, or matter, or War? All these can be held; to assert any of them in Wikipedia's voice, as consensus, needs overwhelming evidence from competent secondary sources.
The quotation from Heraclitus also requires explicit sourcing; the numbering of Heraclitus's fragments differs from editor to editor, and any translation is in part interpretation (this translation also includes explicit interpretation). Whose? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Socratics
It is moderately bizarre to describe Socrates as living in the 300s, when he died in 399, We have very few of his actual words, and I don't recall logos as one of them.
More seriously, the meaning of logos as "inward thought, opinion, ground for belief, common sense" was not invented by the Socratics, It's standard Greek, attested from Herodotus and Sophocles; see LSJ.
I would like to see sources for the random comments that end this section. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the long section on translations and such are important or relevant to the topic. It is clear that it is biased (quoting the New World Translation, which only one sect of Christianity uses.) Whether or not Jesus is God, is not the issue. I think it should be mentioned that Jesus is referred to as logos but the rest of that discussion needs to go. Post your thoughts on the deity of Christ on a more relevant topic.Matwenzel 02:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Logos in Platonism
It seems to me that the primary impact of the concept of Logos on the western tradition was through Platonism. It is through Platonism that we see the logos of Heraclitus and the Pythagoreans, reacting to Platonism that we get the Logos of Aristotle, and derived from Platonism that we get the Stoic Logos and the Christian Logos. Therefore it seems that this article is missing its heart. If anyone agrees and would like to collaborate in writing a Pythagorean-Plato-Platonism section then I would be interested Bernie Lewin 04:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Log (as in record) comes from logos???
In the intro: "In English, the word is the root of "log" (as in record)"
I can't find any reference for this. Every reference for log gives Middle English logge (wood cut from tree) as its root and the use as record derives from a log used to measure the speed of a vessel and the logbook recording these measures. Barring a proper reference, I think this phrase is fanciful and should be removed from the article. Michael Daly 21:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Opening statement of this article is POV biased and unsupported by etymology of Logos
In the second sentence of the first paragraph, it says, "It derives from the verb λέγω lego: to say. This is the primary meaning of the word. Secondary meanings such as logic, thought etc. derive from the fact that if one is capable of λέγειν (infinitive) i.e. speech, then intelligence and thought are assumed."
However, from what I know, and from the etymological record the root of the word means not "speech" but "collect" (See [1]) The use of the particular intention of philosophers who appropriated the word, even it's written history, can not ultimately be taken to be definitive. It seems to me that the above statement is too biased in favor of the philosophical uses of the word, and ignores the word's "folk" meaning.
Now, of course, I have my own theories regarding the phillology of logos, but I will not bother to argue them here as it is not my intent to replace my theory with one that now, unsupported, presently biases this article. Rather I suggest a pragmatic solution to the controversy, which is as follows. Clearly, the meaning of logos is different in different contexts. Therefore, it would be more NPOV to refrain from making controversial statments about the "true" meaning of ancient words, the meaning of which surely preceded recorded history and instead stick to the known facts, which are (1) the etymological record, and (2) the context of its use in recorded history. In this article we have the latter but not the former. --Betamod (talk) 00:41, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- According to Liddell and Scott's A Greek-English Lexicon (9th ed. with supplement, 1996), the sentence you mention was actually fairly accurate (I expanded the translation of "λέγω" so that it now reads: "to count, tell, say, or speak"; see below for why). "λόγος" doesn't come from the sense of "λέγω" that means to collect. If you look under Liddell & Scott's entry for "λόγος", the first thing you'll see is this: "verbal noun of λέγω (B), with senses corresponding to λέγω (B) II and III...." (You can see this on Perseus's website here; but for some reason Perseus doesn't let you see the "λέγω (B)" entry in A Greek-English Lexicon; it only has the "Middle Liddell" entries, i.e. those from Liddell & Scott's An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon. So you can't tell from Perseus what A Greek-English Lexicon means by "λέγω (B)".) If you look under "λέγω (B)" in A Greek-English Lexicon (1996), you will see the meanings pick up and gather; but that's sense I of "λέγω (B)". According to Liddell & Scott, the various senses of "λόγος" corresponds to "λέγω (B) II and III". And when you look under sense II of "λέγω (B)", you'll see the definition count, tell. And sense III has say, speak. I personally accept Liddell & Scott's account of the derivation of "λόγος" over what the American Heritage Dictionary says about it at the Bartleby page. Isokrates (talk) 00:10, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
- I just realized that Pollux at Harvard's Archimedes Project has both the Greek-English Lexicon entry for "λόγος" here and its entry for "λέγω (B)" here. (The links I provided are for the "transliterated" version of the entries, but the Archimedes Project site allows you view them in various Greek fonts if you wish.) Isokrates (talk) 00:51, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Unsourced statements removed
I have removed the following paragraphs as they were marked "dubious" and "citation needed" for several months.
- By the 300s BC, the time of Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, logos described the faculty of human reason and the knowledge men had of the world and of each other. Plato allowed his characters to engage in the conceit of describing logos as a living being in some of his dialogues. The development of the Academy with hypomnemata brought logos closer to the literal text. Aristotle, who studied under Plato, first developed the concept of logic as depicting the rules of human rationality.
- Logos as it is also presently understood today in Theosophical terms and by the Rosicrucians (in their conception of the cosmos) which further influenced how this word was understood later on (in 20th century psychology, for instance).
If anyone can find sources to back up these paragraphs, feel free to re-add them. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 12:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Logos in Goethe's Faust
References to Goethe appear in two places in this article: Use in Christianity > Translations > The notorious question of how to translate logos is topicalised in Goethe's Faust, with Faust finally opting for "deed, action" (Am Anfang war die Tat) and Similar concepts > In modern philosophy > Goethe has his Faust translate John's logos as "Will".
A) Goethe's Faust is neither specifically about Christianity nor modern philosophy. Move this somewhere, or remove (my suggestion). B) If not removed, can someone verify which it is and give a cite from the original? Clearly, Goethe translates logos into GERMAN -- "will, deed, action" are all interpretations of English translators, and pretty disparate at that. I'd chuck it altogether, this belongs in the entry on Faust if anything (because like Faust it's clearly flawed -- no Greek sense of logos corresponds to "Tat"). Orbis 3 (talk) 22:42, 18 March 2008 (UTC)