Talk:Lockheed bribery scandals

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of the Aviation WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.	Aviation Portal
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
Additional information and associated projects or task forces: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- B-Class-1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points have appropriate inline citations. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- B-Class-2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- B-Class-3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- B-Class-4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- B-Class-5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no This article is not currently associated with a task force. To tag it for one or more task forces, please add the task force codes from the template instructions to the template call.

Contents 1 Netherlands 2 Merger 3 Lockheed Scandal 4 Italy 5 Luftwaffe

[edit] Netherlands

In the Netherlands there was also a "Lockheed scandal", relating to the purchase of F-104G Starfighters for the airforce in which Prince Bernhard was implicated for allegedly receiving bribes from Lockheed in order to ensure the aircraft would win out over the Mirage V for the purchase contract.

Not sure if this belongs on this page or should get a page of its own.

[edit] Merger

This article is a stub, and probably won't become more of a stub. Its content belongs in the articles for the Lockheed Corporation and Lockheed L-1011 TriStar. Willy Logan 05:37, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

No, it was a wide-ranging scandal, with broad causes and impact, that radically changed Japan's government and changed American law; it was not merely an episode of one corporation's biography.

Please write more on this "wide-ranging scandal, with broad causes and impact, that radically changed Japan's government and changed American law" That's exactly what I was searching for and could not find. Maybe the title should change to "Lockheed Scandals". --Billyjoejimbob42 23:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lockheed Scandal

• (This discussion is copied from Talk:Lockheed Corporation, and is placed here to show why the article was de-merged, expanded, and moved to the currnt location. - BillCJ 02:31, 12 July 2007 (UTC))

There is little or no information about what was termed in the 1960's the "Lockheed scandal".

Where bribes were handed out for lockheed to attain contracts to supply western europe, most notably west germany, with jet fighters.

This is briefly mentioned on this page, but the redirect is to a vanilla "about lockheed" page, which has no reference to the scandal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann

And the same paragraph is repeated in the main text, but a little more information or detail might be in order from US sources, where they may now have access to information about the investigations and economic impact of the scandals.

Comments please?

- Xelous - 21st June 2007

Should make a good article, assuming we can find some verifiable sources. I found this source on the Netherlands Prince Bernhar's role in the scandal, but nothing else at the moment (haven't searched Google yet tho). - BillCJ 16:04, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Lockheed Bribery Scandal is also a redirect here, and possible alternate title. - BillCJ 16:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

F-104#International_service and Bernhard_of_Lippe-Biesterfeld#Scandals has already some written information about the scandal - perhaps that can be gathered into a starting article. --MoRsE 22:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I've been reading a couple of Corky Meyer's books about his experiences at Grumman as a test pilot, and he headed the Grumman team that was selling the F11F-1F Super Tiger to the countries that Lockheed bribed to by the F-104. He has some unique observances, but alot of it is his personal opinions, and not objectively useful beyond being used as colorful quotes. Meyer did state that he wans't allowed by Grumman Corp to use bribes in any way. But he has definitely piqued my interests in the topic. As for a title, how about Lockheed 1960s bribery scandal? - BillCJ 23:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Title works for me. A question: I remember that there was a scandal surrounding some bribery and the C-5 program...same one or is there more than one Lockheed bribery scandal? AKRadecki^Speaketh 23:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure on the C-5 part. Most of the F-104 stuff happened in the late 50s/early 60s, right before the C-5 development began. That's probably something the research stage would reveal. - BillCJ 23:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I have vague rememberances of it causing problems for some members of congress...but you're right, research! AKRadecki^Speaketh 23:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd be interested in participating in this. --John 01:54, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. What would you be commfortable doing? I haven't started any research yet, and good online sources may be hard to find because of the time period. Wikipedia doesn't have much in depth in the articles above, so this will pretty much have to be done from scratch. I'm not that good at writing text from scratch, esp from printed sources. I don't mind doing some online searching, and dumping text in a sanbox to be rewritten later, and I'm pretty good at formatting and editing. If writing's not your strong suit either, then we could split up some sources, work on those, check wach other's work, and then edit them together. I can set up a sandbox on my userspace, and then we can start finding sources, and discuss more on the sandbox's talk page. - BillCJ 02:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I can write original text if it's distilled from sources. If we can find good sources I can write something, I have a book and a couple of websites already in mind. I like the sandbox idea. I suggest you do it and tell me here and/or in my talk where it is and I will look at it and try to develop it. It's a fascinating subject. --John 02:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

OK,it's at User:BillCJ/Sandbox/Lockheed 1960s bribery scandal. We can use a different title when we go ilive if we have a better one. - BillCJ 03:28, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Give me 24 hours or so. --John 03:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, it took a bit more than 24 hours but I'm quite pleased with it! Thanks for the chance to write an article, I haven't done that for ages. --John 02:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Italy

There's an Italian section waiting to be written, I just ran out of steam. Anybody? If not I'll probably have a go over the next few days. --John 03:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Luftwaffe

Do we want coverage of Hartmann's objection (which I wasn't able to source)? What about the F-104's safety record in service? I commented out the former for now. --John 04:08, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the saftey record backs up Hartmann's comments, but without it doesn't really fit well (seems like sniping). If we can source Hartmann's comments, I do think the whole thing is relevant in showing the Germans had been advised not to buy the Starfighter. Also, thanks for removing the Mirage III garbage from the F-104 page. I had added the fact tag awhile back. Since then I've been reading Corky Meyer's book on his time with Grumman as a test pilot, and he headed the Grumman Super Tiger sales team. He states flat out that the Super TIger was preferred by many in the German AF, and came very close to winning. He also quoteded an excert from the German government's announcement of the F-104's win, which stated "The American Starfighter has a slight merit of the Grumman Super Tiger . . . The French Mirage IIIA does not meet our tactical requirments." I'm still working on how to fit some of what he says in other places about the Lockheed bribes, which he was well aware of in 1957-59. Alot of what he writes is personal observations, and really only suited to adding some color.

Speaking of color, thanks for cropping the ANA pic. It was the only ANA pic I could find. Feel free to add other pics if you find some that are relevant. - BillCJ 16:32, 12 July 2007 (UTC)