Talk:Lockheed AC-130/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

First flight

A correction is needed in the "first flight" list. The first flight of the AC-130A was in 1966, flown by a Systems Command crew. They did at least two deployments to Vietnam, returning to the CONUS after each. I reported to the 16th SOS in APril 1968, as one of the first two operational aircrews. I left Ubon, Thailand in April 1969, when there were only a few E-models present. I don't know when the first AC-130H first flew. Cal Taylor, AC-130A/A navigator. 25 June 2006.

Inaccuracies

There are a number of inaccuracies on this page. 'Puff the Magic Dragon' was not the AC-130, but rather the AC-47. Some other stuff here attributed to the AC-130 was actually the work of prior gunships. I'll research and fix. —Morven 20:46, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Exactly, that's the reason because I deleted that reference --Poliorcetes 11:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Nicknames

Can we document the various types and nicknames for the gunship? Mark Richards 20:44, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Source

The original material for this page seems to have come from http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=71 which is referenced, but it seems to me it should be credited (if confirmed). Also some of the wording "provide surgical firepower" is non encyclopedic..

Everything except for the seventh paragraph (which I added just a few days ago) seems to be a direct ripoff from the AF's website. I suppose it's technically okay to do this since the federal government doesn't hold copyrights, but I'm going to start rewording the article anyway. Cut and Pasting is not exactly the sort of behavior we want for an encyclopedia. Maclyn611 22:59, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gunships

The picture accompanying the text is of an MC-130H Talon II. Gunships have guns.

And I removed that picture for that very reason. :-) pyrocrickett 03:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Specifications

The Specifications section appeared to have a misspelling:

  • AC-130A Surpise (sic) Package and Pave Pronto and AC-130E Pave Spectre

This seems pretty obvious, but I mention it here just in case "Surpise" is the correct spelling. A Google search suggests it should be "Surprise":

I changed the spelling to "Surprise." Teratornis 16:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Propaganda names and redirects

Please note wikipedia policies: Operational codenames generally make poor titles, as the codename gives no indication of when or where the battle took place and only represents one side's planning (potentially causing the article to focus on that side's point of view to the detriment of the other).. There is no need to keep them here unless propaganda is the topic. Thank you. Añoranza 21:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Your refusal to discuss your case on the page you are selectively quoting is going to lead to another revert war, sadly I hope this is not what you want. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 21:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
The policy is clear cut, if you want to change it, try. Unless you get a consensus, stop warring. Añoranza 22:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
You have two people telling you to stop now, myself and MMX1. Once again I ask you to participate in the discussion on WP:MILHIST, what you are quoting is in reference to article titles. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 22:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
It says it in the first 6 letters of the quote. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 22:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
“operat”? ericg ✈ 08:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
my deepest apologies, 6 words. Sorry for the massive confusion that may have caused. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 10:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Noting NPOV Statement as your edit summary is so wrong to the point where I'm tempted to refuse AGF. An operation title is not a statement, it's a proper noun. And since I probably have to explain the next logical step; proper nouns aren't POV, they are what they are. Haizum 23:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

You continue to be very rude. And your lack of wiki-knowledge is showing. {{NPOV-statement}} is just the wiki code for adding "neutrality disputed" to a term, in this case consisting of several nouns. Añoranza 00:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm talking about your edit summaries, not code (the italicized notes on diff lists). Oh, and citing my inexperience with Wikipedia for a rebuttal is a personal attack. Do I need to mention it on your RFA? Haizum 00:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
The edit summary was the code. Añoranza 00:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
The Military History Wikiproject (as proud as we might be of it) does not make policy. The above quoted item is not even a full Wikipedia guideline. It is a project guideline. Guidelines are not policy and guidelines from a Wikiproject generally have not yet been subjected to the same scrutiny as those accepted for all of Wikipedia. Also, the place to argue over the titles of those articles in those articles, not here. I am going to check the links to figure out which ones are re-directs and which ones are not, so I don't look like a bull in a china shop. --Habap 03:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I did change the few that used operation names when the article name did not. I left the operation name in quotes for reference. --Habap 10:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Removing neutrality dispute tags is vandalism

Dispute tags are an important way for people to show that there are problems with the article. Do not remove them unless you are sure that the dispute is settled. As a general rule, do not remove other people's dispute tags twice during a 24 hour period. Don't do it. [1] [2] Añoranza 02:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you miss the next sentence? Do not place dispute tags improperly, as in when there is no dispute, and the reason for placing the dispute tag is because a suggested edit has failed to meet consensus. Instead, follow WP:CON and accept that some edits will not meet consensus. Please note that placing or removal of dispute tags does not count as simple vandalism, and therefore the reverting of such edits is not exempt from the three-revert rule. --Habap 03:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Also, note that I only reverted your tag once, not the twice that would violate the general rule. --Habap 10:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Añoranza, you probably ought to try harder to assume good faith. Just reviewing your activities recently, any time someone disagrees with you or reverts an edit, you immediately assume bad faith, attack them, and re-revert. As an uninvolved third party, I'd like to point out that it's getting absolutely ridiculous. Calm down, turn off your personal agenda,and please work with the other editors of this encyclopedia. ericg ✈ 06:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Show me one case where I personally attacked someone the way you just did. Añoranza 10:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Please explain how my request for you to calm down and cooperate with editors was a "personal attack". Also, thank you for proving my point about assuming bad faith. ericg ✈ 17:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
[3][4][5][6][7] You asked. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 11:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
As the reader can easily see, none of the comments is a personal attack as the one I stroke out above. I give you that the third and the last one are rude, however, given the enormous amount of prceding innuendo by the two editors they were directed to, there is just a point where nothing else seems to work. Añoranza 11:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but telling someone to cease a personal agenda is less of a personal attack then calling someone ignorant or telling them they are being "bitchy" as you put it. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 11:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Ignorant can be a baseless offense, in the case you quoted it was a factual description of a user who ignored something on purpose. Bitchy is a rude but accurate description of the behaviour of a user who posts endless innuendo everywhere, refuses to accept consensus, deletes POV tags under pretexts etc. etc. etc. Añoranza 12:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Please cease your personal attacks. WP:AGF in regards to your "pretexts" comment --zero faults |sockpuppets| 12:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
It is not a personal attack, and I call it barefaced again if you pretend you had honest reasons to remove all move tags after you had been explained why they needed to stay. Añoranza 13:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I will no longer respond to you on this thread, it seems to be you are becoming hostile. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 13:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Note

I see no reason why we should write that operation names are "valid" in the US. They are official US military terminology. Their use in neutral encyclopedias is disputed, calling them "valid" is misleading. The fact that medals are given out under the propaganda names has nothing to do with this article. Añoranza 11:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I vote against. I think the paragraph is valid in explaining the debate in which you seem to continue on about. It also removes the need for your constant revert warring. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 11:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Who feels the POV tag should be removed? --zero faults |sockpuppets| 11:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The fact that medals are given out under a propaganda name in no way changes anything about the fact that propaganda names need to be avoided in a neutral encyclopedia. It is completely unencyclopedic, and pov-tags cannot be removed by a straw poll, just in case you try again. Añoranza 11:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Please adhere to a concensus if one builds, much like I will. Thank you --zero faults |sockpuppets| 11:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Unlike you, I never tried not to. Añoranza 12:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Please refrain from personal attacks on your fellow editors. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 12:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
It is not a personal attack, as you know very well where you tried to ignore consensus. Añoranza 13:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Please try to remain calm when dealing with your fellow editors. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 13:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

What the hell? It's the official U.S. name of the operation. Please keep the debate on the name to its relevant page. Joffeloff 15:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

If you were actually "up" on the debate you would know that there is a very vociferous group of people who are wanting to remove all operation names on the basis of propaganda, the Note you removed was the beginning of a compromise, thanx for taking the time to understand what you were removing before hand. ← ΣcoPhreek Is UselessNostalgia→ 16:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
So facts should be removed because they are regarded as propaganda by one side? That's violation of the NPOV rule at its finest. The operation names exist, it's what the U.S. calls its operations. It's information which should be here on the Wikipedia, and a compromise should be dealt with in its own articles. It shouldn't have its own section in every article where an operation name is mentioned. Thanks for taking the time to understand Wikipedia policy beforehand. Joffeloff 16:34, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
We understand that and agree, however that is not what the parties interested in removing the Names are doing, we are having to defend it on every single page, because the user in question has an agenda that is being pushed on every Operation page. I understand Wikipedia policy just fine, they apparently do not and are making things very difficult.

← ΣcoPhreek Is UselessNostalgia→

this is what happens when you let partisan liberals edit encyclopedias.--Capsela 20:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, because that's an unbiased statement heh -- Thatguy96 16:46, 6 July 2006

Cost

"The AC-130 gunship series is one of the most expensive aircraft ever made due to its unique nature. "

I don't think this is accurate.

B2 Bomber at 2.2 billion - http://www.cdi.org/issues/aviation/B296.html B1 at 200 million - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-1_Lancer F-22 at 361 million - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22_Raptor C-17 at $400 million - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C17

Just my thoughts JohnRach 08:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

  • So of all the aircraft ever made it ranks at #5? I would still stay the statement is true.--Looper5920 10:25, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I know what you are saying but the list I gave was only a quick search - also it does not deinfe between military and commercial, if commercial is included it starts dropping even further down the list.

747-400 - $216 million 747-400 Freighter $219 million 747-800 $272 million 777-200LR $219 million and various other 777 models all in excess of $200 million. http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/ A380 - $282 million - http://www.airguideonline.com/aircr_prices.htm

JohnRach 08:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Security

I've worked gunships for a long time and still make my living on them. I appreciate the restraint shown in withholding performance data from the page and offer a reminder to both editors and potential contributors: Don't weaken our defense posture by revealing performance data to anyone without a need to know. Thanks.

Your request is absurd. All the information in these articles is public information, unclassified, and easily acessable in many formats. Anyone who seriously wants to hurt an AC-130 can easily research the information he cares for. The C-130 itself is an old design and in service world wide. Its not a secret what performance the plane has, and its absurd that you think we should withold information for "safety". Alyeska 04:59, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
That's assuming the AC-130 carries the same countermeasures as the C-130. Still, it's good you don't mention the secret hidden rocket booster or the special swing-wings. Jeremy Nimmo 08:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I would like to echo my appreciation for the restraint of people who are "in the know" on the capabilities of the AC-130 Spooky and Spectre. While general flight characteristics are not classified, just because someone wants to know, does not mean they have a need to know. No one outside of the base needs to know when an AC-130 is taking off. The flight schedule isn't classified, but a lot of people don't have the "need" to know. Please don't mention the megawatt lasers they have installed and the rocket boosters they have for supersonic flight. (No user name, Henley) 20:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed scare quotes from the word "wedding" as they somehow implied that it was not what it was - a wedding--FarQPwnsJoo 06:57, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

General characteristics of a vehicle are public-domain information. I think it's absurd that you think everything you read online is meant for the public. The C-130's performance capabilities are obviously not a matter of national security. However, as an aircraft electrician on 4 different models of C-130 I can tell you, believe it or not, that there are some characteristics of certain models of C-130's that are not meant to be a matter of public record, but may be easily accessible from the internet. I understand the writer seemed to have made a bigger deal about the subject than they should have, they were just trying to make clear that you should be careful about publishing information on military aircraft no matter how old and out of date the aircraft is. Although, you are pretty safe with information on the C-130. Besides, I don't think we have to worry about terrorists building there own C-130's with the intent of taking over the world.(NucPhy7 23:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC))
"The C-130's performance capabilities are obviously not a matter of national security." I beg to disagree, especially when talking about a special, modified version of the airframe. General characteristics of a vehicle are not necessarily public-domain information. Until declassified, the F-117's characteristics were clearly classified. Not all of the B-2's information is declassified and some of its characteristics will remain classified for some time. This section is simply to serve as a friendly bit of advice to anyone who is "in the know" to be careful as to what they discuss on a public website. BQZip01 23:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you on the F-117 however, obviously the C-130 is not an F-117 and it does not have the same secrecy in regard to mission activity. When I said performance capabilities I was referring to the aircrafts performance not characteristics. There are characteristics of some C-130's that are classified but the aircrafts speed, ceiling, and range are not. Now you may have a different opinion on the difference between characterisics and performance, but in my opinion I would say characteristics would refer to the aircrafts components and equipment, and performance refers to the aircrafts....well, performance such as, like I mentioned above, the speed, ceiling, and range. If that was not clear in my previous comment then I appologize for the confusion. Also you are referring to aircraft that were built for secrecy. So if you are going to make a comment about the secrecy of the C-130 than talk about the C-130, not the F-117 or the B-2. I'm pretty sure the C-130 was not built with the intent of being a secret aircaft. The F-117 and B-2 however, were. (NucPhy7 01:30, 5 April 2007 (UTC))

NucPhy7, the AC-130 does not have the exact same flight characteristics as a "slick" C-130 (think of the amount of drag on the left side of the airframe from the guns and sensors while at cruising speeds) and uses only a few of the basic tactics of a Herc. This is not a slight variation in the airframe. If the stats are published by the Air Force, hey, it's public info. If it isn't, it is ILLEGAL for people in USAF to publish information that is "FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY." This includes any information that is not specifically released to the public. Perfect example: I have the T-37 "Dash 1," the flight manual for all pilots flying the T-37. This information has been published for official use since the 50s. Nothing in the systems of the aircraft is classified in any way. We have exported this aircraft to many other countries and it is currently in use by NATO pilots for flight training. However, I cannot reveal specific information or show any info from that book because of Air Force regulations (which are tantamount to legal orders) and export laws of the United States.
All we are asking for is for people to be careful in what they put out here. I do not know of anyone who has done it, but I think you can use your imagination to see how some foreign intel person could put something very specific on Wikipedia like, "The F-15E has a look-down radar with a range of 500 miles" (I have no idea of the range of the F-15E's radar; this is just an example). A few days later, Some crewmember, mechanic, former designer, etc. changes it to read "...a range of 200 miles." An edit war ensues until the guy states, "Listen buddy! I flew those jets for 13 years and I never got a range above 200 miles!" and its security is compromised. Little stuff adds up over time and I am requesting that we be careful in such matters. BQZip01 15:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

You seem to think that I am disagreeing with you on the aircrafts security and I'm not. I maintain 4 models of C-130 and I know the level of security involved with them, I just think you are taking this too seriously. C-130's are not top secret aircraft, most of their characteristics are unclassified. However, I agree with you on being carefull when publishing information on military aircraft, but C-130's are the least of your worries when compared to all the aircraft in the Air Force inventory.(NucPhy7 12:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC))

I think we can presume that everything on the AF's fact sheet[8] is non-sensitive. It includes speed, range, ceiling, MTW, etc. Details beyond that are a different matter. -Will Beback · † · 12:21, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Will, I couldn't agree more. Exactly the point I was trying to make.
"4 models of C-130" - Were any of those special operations aircraft? I truly doubt that. The flying characteristics of the MC-130E/H/W are significantly different than that of the AC-130U/H, and both are different from any other "slick" -130s. Please do not press this issue further. I will not get into specifics, but some characteristics are not even close.
"C-130's are not top secret aircraft, most of their characteristics are unclassified." - If you have a source, then by all means give us the info and tell us the source. No problems there. That goes for anyone about anything.
"C-130's (sic) are the least of your worries when compared to all the aircraft in the Air Force inventory." How many other airframes have 13 (or more) crewmen orbiting around a battlefield at night for a significant amount of time? I would say that next to paratrooper transport aircraft or covert insertions, that is the one aircraft to worry most about.
BQZip01 07:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


The absurdity continues...now if you make a change to the page or post in talk, you get a note on your talk page that begins "You haven't done it yet, but...." I got one of those and was quite offended. I don't know who died and made BQZip01 chief of security, but what he is doing borders on harrassment. Spectregunner 02:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

  • I'm not sure about that. But the point that people need to be careful on what they add has been covered and then some. The horse is dead.. -Fnlayson 02:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

BQZip01, actually three of the models of C-130 I work are special ops aircraft. As a matter of fact the first base I was at I was part of Air Force Special Operations Command and the current base I am at is a training base for AFSOC.NucPhy7 02:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, NucPhy7, I stand corrected. Bad assumption on my part. As for spectre, as we discussed, all I asked is for people to be careful. That is all. — BQZip01 — talk 04:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Crew size?

In the specs section the article notes that the crew number is 13, although in the service history the article states that an aircraft was shot down and all 14 crew members were killed. Which is the true number? One should be changed.

Not sure why this is in the edit war, but to answer your question, there are many reasons that 14 people could have been aboard. There could have been an extra observor or maybe a different model gunship which had an extra crewmember. Do not change this number, because, from what I remember from my history paper and the interviews I condudcted at Special Operations Command HQ, I am pretty sure it is accurate. (No user name, Henley) 20:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The baseline crew size was 13; however, it was not uncommon to have as many as 17 persons on board. More often than not it could be attributed to trainging or certification, some times it was a matter of having a visiting crew member from a different type of aircaft on board, sometimes it might simply be the fact that there was an extra gunner on board. Spectregunner 22:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Civilian casualties and controversy

I object to the section titled, "Civilian casualties and controversy." Reading that section and its associated articles in support of the authors assertion you'll find that none of what is said is based on fact. What is said against the gunship is true in that it gets said about the use of any other war machine, however this is far too much of a generalisation and should not be included in the article. NONE of the supporting articles meantion any sort controversy surrounding the use and employment of the AC-130 which to me says the entire piece is baseless. I feel the individual who wrote it had a rather obvious agenda, especially since the precision strike capability combined with its low yield minimizes the risk of collateral damage which would infact INCREASE its desireablity as a weapons platform. I can be more specific and break the article down sentence by sentence if need be, but I thought I'd spare those who don't care to hear it. If you're still unsure, this article should shed some light: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_words --St Aidan 18:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I hadn't read this comment at the time but I noticed that whole segment sounded a little biased in favour of the AC-130 and its users. raptor 11:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

So are we going to start adding this section to all military aircraft? Alyeska 23:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted this section entirely. Why? Because it serves no purpose in this article. I don't see such sections for other military aircraft which we know killed civilians. It is not relevant to the aircraft itself and is so utterly generic in writing that it could apply to any military aircraft. Alyeska 21:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 14:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)