Talk:Lo Shu Square

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The Feng Shui article says the following:

"It is erroneously identified as geomancy, an unfortunate misnomer courtesy of 19th-century Christian missionaries." but this article says: "is an important part of Feng Shui, the ancient Chinese art of geomancy."

Which is correct?

The Components of Hexcagrams section in the I Ching article has a rather different corrsepondence of the numbers and the trigrams than the image shown in this article. Which is correct?

Contents

[edit] m: edit

+changed 'pa kua chang' in image caption to Pinyin version, added Chinese characters. +changed factual inacuracy: ('feng shui is the chinese art of geomancy')

[edit] 3x3 -> 9x9

{{9x9 type square|BACKGROUND=#dfdfdf|ALIGN=right|WIDTH=20px|A00=31|A01=36|A02=29|A03=76|A04=81|A05=74|A06=13|A07=18|A08=11|A10=30|A11=32|A12=34|A13=75|A14=77|A15=79|A16=12|A17=14|A18=16|A20=35|A21=28|A22=33|A23=80|A24=73|A25=78|A26=17|A27=10|A28=15|A30=22|A31=27|A32=20|A33=40|A34=45|A35=38|A36=58|A37=63|A38=56|A40=21|A41=23|A42=25|A43=39|A44=41|A45=43|A46=57|A47=59|A48=61|A50=26|A51=19|A52=24|A53=44|A54=37|A55=42|A56=62|A57=55|A58=60|A60=67|A61=72|A62=65|A63=4|A64=9|A65=2|A66=49|A67=54|A68=47|A70=66|A71=68|A72=70|A73=3|A74=5|A75=7|A76=48|A77=50|A78=52|A80=71|A81=64|A82=69|A83=8|A84=1|A85=6|A86=53|A87=46|A88=51|C00=black|C01=black|C02=black|C03=black|C04=black|C05=black|C06=black|C07=black|C08=black|C10=black|C11=black|C12=black|C13=black|C14=black|C15=black|C16=black|C17=black|C18=black|C20=black|C21=black|C22=black|C23=black|C24=black|C25=black|C26=black|C27=black|C28=black|C30=black|C31=black|C32=black|C33=black|C34=black|C35=black|C36=black|C37=black|C38=black|C40=black|C41=black|C42=black|C43=black|C44=black|C45=black|C46=black|C47=black|C48=black|C50=black|C51=black|C52=black|C53=black|C54=black|C55=black|C56=black|C57=black|C58=black|C60=black|C61=black|C62=black|C63=blue|C64=blue|C65=blue|C66=black|C67=black|C68=black|C70=black|C71=black|C72=black|C73=blue|C74=blue|C75=blue|C76=black|C77=black|C78=black|C80=black|C81=black|C82=black|C83=blue|C84=blue|C85=blue|C86=black|C87=black|C88=black}}
'''question:''' Can you find 27 subsquares (nxn cells in n rows '''and''' n columns; values must not be consecutive) where the sum of the new diagonals, the sum of the new raws and the sum of the new columns is the identical for that particular subsquare?

generates:

31 36 29 76 81 74 13 18 11
30 32 34 75 77 79 12 14 16
35 28 33 80 73 78 17 10 15
22 27 20 40 45 38 58 63 56
21 23 25 39 41 43 57 59 61
26 19 24 44 37 42 62 55 60
67 72 65 4 9 2 49 54 47
66 68 70 3 5 7 48 50 52
71 64 69 8 1 6 53 46 51

question: Can you find 27 subsquares (nxn cells in n rows and n columns; values must not be consecutive) where the sum of the new diagonals, the sum of the new raws and the sum of the new columns is the identical for that particular subsquare?
See: Meta:User:Gangleri/tests/4x4 type square/examples – Best regards Gangleri | Th | T 13:10, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Just want to point out, 掌 zhang3, means palm 長 zhang3, means grow, sprout

baguazhang is actually a martial art, based on the bagua

I don't see where the zhang comes from in this example. there is a word, zhang1 張, which means "sheet", which might be appropriate, but I think the zhang doesn't need to be there at all

[edit] Date

What is a source for the date 2800 B.C.? I have never seen such an early date in any scholarly work. Zaslav 02:08, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I found one on the Internet: http://www.pbs.org/teachersource/recommended/math/lk_basiccomputation.shtm

Giftlite 04:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Source dates for Fu Hsi are given in Chinese texts as 3500, and for Yellow Emerpors as 2500 to 2000 BC. Karen Solvig 16:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Content removed from article

I've removed the following two paragraphs from the article:

The flood story found in many ancient cultures has many cultural references to an inundation of the "Great Waters" , a reference continually used in the I Ching refers to the universal waters surrounding the earth (this flood idea of a celestial indunation appears in various ancient texts, including the Shu Ching). The inundation of celestial waters (sent down by the power of Heaven or God) also has a Biblical reference, to a time of darkness in which the sun moved backwards, and the planets changed their courses, as put forward by Guy Crammer, rather than a flood on earth. All historic references to a world-wide flood thereby is seen to have a greater symbolic universal meaning, as the workings of the Lo Shu in the Chinese texts is connected both to the control of rivers at a time of flood, and a celestial value of the 360 day year, and of the Equinoxal Precession.

In the I Ching the universal waters are ruled over by the Moon, as the ancient 360 day year seems to have been put in place in order to refer to the same division of values as found in the 360 degrees of heaven's movment (as 8640 = the hours in a 360 day year, and 8640 + 4320 = 12,960). A quarter of the a 360 day year in hours = 2160 as does the years in 1 aeon, and the total hours of 8460 if taken as = 10 becomes 12,960 when = 15, as 15 is the central value of the Ho Tu and Lo Shu. When all the values of Heaven and Earth (Original Trigrams) are placed into the Ho Tu to form an 8 x 8 square in each of its directions, a central 5th square is formed, and it is the central values of the 5th square that is used in the workings of the Lo Shu. There are 8 central squares in the Ho Tu, so the amount of hexagrams or stars = 8 x 8 x 8 gives a value to the Lo Shu of 6,480 in all diagonals. The total values of the Lo Shu thereby gives all value of 12,960 light years and 12,960 dark years as the map is devised of light and dark (yang or Yin) numbers, so in total this is the exact number of years taken by Heaven to rise and fall in Precession (these values are taken from general astromonical information). The Lo Shu has a second magic square of diagonal numbers = amounts of 27 in each diagonal, as a number that has a further link to the constellations or periods of Manu (Manu was the Hindu Noah), which make up the "Year of Brahma" (Professor Muir's 'Original Sanskrit Texts', and the Riga veda) or "Great Year" as referred to by Plato.

The workings of the Maps are based on the coming together of opposite light and dark values, as mentioned above of the Yin and Yang, as the light numbers are odd integers, and the dark are even integers. The values of the two River Maps flow from the multiples of integers from 1 to 10 that go on to produce 40 light and 40 dark numbers - and these vales can be obtained by anyone who wishes to multiple the values of 1 to 10 into the lines of 'Original Trigrams' of Ch'ien and K'un.

Despite having asked for citations for this material, non have been provided. While some of what is written is purely calculation, there are many claims made that do require a source. Without citations, it is original research. Here are some examples:

  • "The flood story found in many ancient cultures now seems to refer to an inundation of the "Great Waters" therefore they mean the universal waters rather than a flood on earth (all historic references thereby have a greater symbolic universal meaning)."
  • "The universal waters are ruled over by the Moon, as the Lunar Year of 360 days seems to have been put in place in order to refer to the same division of values as is found in Precession or the 360 degrees of heaven's movment."
  • "... 12,960 light and 12,960 dark, which is the exact number of years taken by Heaven to rise and fall."

The last sentence of the first paragraph, "a number that has a further link to the constellations or periods of Manu (Manu was the Hindu Noah), which make up the "Year of Brahma" (Professor Muir and Riga veda) "Great Year" as referred to by Plato," does have a reference (Professor Muir), but does not conform to the Wikipedia guideline for citations.

My final comment is that the style of writing is very detailed and not clear, at least not to me. I am willing to help with this, but first, let's get some sources. Sunray 19:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The recent changes to the above passages are an improvement, IMO. However, the first paragraph is very long and detailed, and should be edited for readability. I can work on that with you. Thanks for including more information on the Muir citation. Here's how it would look in a "References" section:
  • Muir, J. 1967. Original Sanskrit texts on the origin and history of the people of India: their religion and institutions. Amsterdam: Oriental Press.
The preferred format is to place notes in the text for each citation. I can do that if you give me the citations, in the above format. Sunray 19:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I've started to do a bit of editing, but the meaning of the last sentence of the first paragraph is not clear to me. Also do you have a citation for Crammer? Sunray 20:04, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I see that you added Crammer's first name to the text. This is insufficient for a reference. The minimum needed for the citation is: (Author/Date). Usually a page number is necessary if it is a direct quote or paraphrase. The complete reference would also need to be given in a "References" section, in the format I have given above for Muir. Have you read the guidelines on citiation? It would be a good idea to do that. Sunray 19:54, 5 July 2006 (UTC)