Talk:Live action role-playing game

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Live action role-playing game was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: December 11, 2007
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[edit] LARP or larp?

Currently the upper-case acronym (LARP) is being used in the article. I propose to change to the more modern lower-case noun (larp), as 'larp' has become a word in it's own right and it makes more sense when using derivative terms such as "a larper". Any views? --Elbit 10:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, you're right, but I don't think the whole article should be moved, as the acronym "LARP" is of course still used widely as well. Though a mention in the lead paragraph of this would be a good idea, IMHO. --Conti|✉ 13:45, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I disagree -- I've never seen the term used as anything except an acronym. Can you provide examples of where it's been used as a lowercase standalone word instead of as an acronym? --Jyaus 21:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Examples: Beyond role and play, and larp.com seems to use both. But I agree the acronym form is more common at present. -- Elbit 10:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
larp.com capitalizes the word on their homepage! Unless the lowercase form becomes more common I don't think we should be changing the article to use lowercase. --Jyaus 13:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
IMO, this is just lazy typing. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 14:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I disagree too. I've also never seen this used in lowercase. Besides, surely uppercase is more correct. It is an acronym after all. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 21:34, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I disagree as well. 71.120.201.39 (talk) 13:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
It's all a matter of where you live. In UK English, acronyms which are pronounced as a single word (like "LARP" and "NATO") can be written with lowercase, with the first letter capitalized in proper nouns (i.e. "larp" and "Nato.") Acronyms pronounced by saying the letters individually (like "TV" or "DVD") are more likely to be written in all capitals. In US English, acronyms are more often totally capitalized regardless of pronounciation, but lowercase is a valid alternative for words in very common usage (like "laser" and "scuba.") Check out the WP entry on acronyms for more info, but basically, writing it any way is correct. It's just more common to find it written one way or another depending on your dialect of English. It's probably best to keep this article where it is at "Live action role-playing game" with both LARP and Larp redirecting here. Rob T Firefly 06:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Larp is also spelt in lowercase in the nordic countries, where it is treated as a word. And that spelling is gaining favour in New Zealand. It's much like spelling RADAR as radar, it's an inevitable naturalisation process. --Ryan Paddy 19:40, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I have to disagree agree with you - it's an acronym, & isn't sufficiently ensconced in language like the word "radar," who most people do NOT know was ever actually an acronym, first. FlaviaR (talk) 06:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it's a matter of what's correct, it's a matter of how it's actually used. I think it could be demonstrated easily that both "LARP" and "larp" are in common usage in different parts of the world. The article largely uses LARP, and I think that's appropriate as it's still probably the most common usage. The article mentions larp in the terminology section, and I think that's a good place for it. If larp should overtake LARP in common usage, then I'd argue that the article should switch to using larp. Curiously, the odds of that happening are reduced by the Wikipedia article using LARP, because Wikipedia is influential. --Ryan Paddy (talk) 20:26, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] origin of word

Question: When was the term "LARP" invented? I have the idea that events we'd today call LARPs existed for a long time before the acronym was coined, but I don't have any actual evidence.

I think it was popularized (but probably not invented) with the publication of White Wolf's "Minds Eye Theatre" in 1994. Before that, LRP and IL were more common. LRP is still the preffered acronym in the UK. --Elbit 11:18, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Trout are delicious. 71.120.201.39 (talk) 13:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
This may start sounding like an episode of Balderdash and Piffle. I'm fairly sure we we using the terms LARP and SATT (Sit at the Table) in Unversity of Nottingham RP society in 1990. Dave Barnett
Do you have a published reference for this? It would be good to find the earliest published reference to a use of the term "LARP" just so that we can mention it in passing in the article's History section. --Ryan Paddy 23:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] International focus

There is a lot of variety in LARP internationally. This article attempts to describe this international variety. Please do not remove parts of the article because they do not describe the LARPs that you have been involved in personally. Although this article is in English, it is not intended to be specific to describing LARP in the English-speaking world. --Ryan Paddy 22:17, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Over-specific regionality (Theatre-style)

I've removed mention of theatre-style larp having strongholds in certain parts of the USA. This information is too specific for the main larp article. I've also removed mention of specific larps or gaming conventions, this was again too specific for the main larp article. Please discuss here rather than engaging in an edit war - this has already been edited back and forth a couple of times. --Ryan Paddy 22:14, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

The history section currently jumps from some early larps to the current state of the hobby/industry. It seems like an intermediary paragraph is missing, covering the development and spread of larp. I've added a paragraph that begins to discuss the international spread, but it's light on information. Does anyone know any references for the spread of Mind's Eye Theatre larps in the 1990s? That was a major development. The start of larp-specific conventions (Intercon, Knutepunkt) might be considered another important development. Likewise the first really large larps are probably noteworthy: e.g. the multi-chapter fantasy larps in the US, the fest-sized fantasy larps in the UK with thousands of participants, and the international MET clubs (Camarilla & OWBN). --Ryan Paddy 23:17, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, cocks. 71.120.201.39 (talk) 13:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, I wonder whether mentioning specific early larps is very encyclopedic in tone. --Ryan Paddy 02:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Answer: Yes, I know about the development of the Camarilla, as I'm one of the original founders. I'm a bit of a wikipedia newbie, however, so I don't know how to contact you without putting my e-mail address out there for all to see. If you look up The Camarilla (fan club)" on Wikipedia, you will find the correct history and current status there. If you want more information, I guess we'll have to find a way to get in touch with each other. -- W. Racine, 1 May 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.205.22.166 (talk) 10:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi there. We talk about it on this page, or if you prefer you can post on my talk page, here: User_talk:Ryan_Paddy What we mostly need is a reliable source (that is a newspaper, magazine, or something - we could settle for something like a White Wolf web page if nothing else is available) that describes the origins of the Camarilla, especially when they started running larps. Also info on their current spread would be great. I gather you're an expert on the subject, but the way wikipedia works is that we can't rely on the expertese of editors but need "proof" in the form of reliable publications with the information. Especially when it comes to things like dates and statistics. Unfortunately there are no specific references on the Camarilla (fan club) article to borrow, just some external links. Ryan Paddy (talk) 22:10, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Avant-garde

I wonder if a better term for the Arthaus form would be avant-garde. Arthaus has no entry in English wikipedia, and Arthouse is specific to film. Avante-garde on the other hand is a generic term for artistic experimentalism in all media, and has an appropriate English wikipedia entry. The term Arthaus appears to have been was invented by Eirik Fatland in the article Knutepunkt and Nordic Live Role-Playing, A crash course in reference to a tradition of experimental larps in the Nordic countries. Googling uncovers a number of uses of the phrase "avant-garde larp" often in reference to the same larps that are sometimes described as arthaus, and I think this is a more appropriate term for use in the English wikipedia. --Ryan Paddy 21:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No touch rule

There's mention of "no touch" rules in the article. I understand such a non-contact rule is used in all MET games. Could someone with access to a MET rulebook look this up and post a quote and citation here? --Ryan Paddy 03:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

From a section titled "The Basic Rules" which "are the most important rules of MET, the only ones that absolutely must be obeyed." It carries on this this is basically a legal defence from crazy and clueless people, although it doesn't use those words. Subsection header: "#1 - No Touching." The first sentence in the section is "This means none whatsoever, even with consent." It goes on to warn people to be cautious and forvids various dangerous things like running and jumping. I can pull additional information if it's helpful. Dansky, Richard E. (1996), “Appendix”, Laws of the Night, White Wolf, Inc., pp. 136, ISBN 1-5604-506-8  (Dansky is the first credit and is credited for "Development." The Authors credit is "All new material by Richard E. Dansky. Reprinted material from Antagonists by Jennifer Albright with Nicky Rea and Phil Brucato. Reprinted material from The Apocalypse by Geoffrey Fortier, William Spencer-Hale, Sam Chupp, Ian Lemke and Mike Tinney. Reprinted material from The Masquerade Players' Kit by Iam Lemke and Mike Tinney. Reprinted material from The Masquerade 2nd Edition by Geoffrey Fortier, Frank Branham, Mark Rein•Hagen, Iam Lemke and Mike Tinney. Reprinted material from Vampire: The Masquerade 2nd Edition by Mark Rein•Hagen, Graeme Davis, Tom Dowd, Lisa Stevens and Stewart Wieck.") — Alan De Smet | Talk 05:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I took a stab at integrating it into the article proper. Again, I can pull more details if necessary. Sadly, the 1996 rules are the last ones I have. — Alan De Smet | Talk 05:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The other Basic Rules are: "No weapons as props" (including realistic fake ones), "No drugs or drinking", "ignore or adjust any of the rules", "It's only a game", and "Have fun". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alan De Smet (talk • contribs) 05:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Alan, great citations. --Ryan Paddy 22:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone have any other examples of no-touch rules in LARPS? Does Rules to Live By have a rule like that? Ryan Paddy (talk) 22:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Journal of Interactive Drama

A user has deleted the Journal of Interactive Drama mention, claiming that the journal is "bogus", "a front", and "a put on". Is there any evidence for this allegation? The editor of the journal has been an advocate of LARP for many years, publishing LARP scenarios (including one that I contributed to and emailed to him) online. I know some of the contributors to the journal, they are real LARP researchers. This is a serious allegation and would probably amount to a controversy that needs to be covered by the article, if there is any reference for it. If there is no reliable source then the allegation is original research and should not affect the Wikipedia article. --Ryan Paddy (talk) 22:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

  • I may have been too hasty, here. All I know is I checked the archive of past issues @ the website (web archive version[both oldest / newest @ [webarchive.com.]])and @ each when I checked the archive, and it said there were no archives available @ that time. I hadn't thought of the possibility that the web-page author might not yet have gotten around to archiving past issues, by the current issue (or rather the current issue as of 6 months ago, as webarchive.com has nothing more recent) (hopefully you are following that I am using the word archive in reference to two different things in this response). Anyway, here are the links to support my argument (before I do, however: to make my position @ the time I deleted the section, I thought I was reading a supposedly acedemic journal that had no content after 2 years, which would be bogus. Fallacies occur on the www.):

http://web.archive.org/web/20070810060412/http://www.rpg.net/larp/journal/index.html Thaddeus Slamp (talk) 23:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Why look at www.archive.org instead of the actual website? The website is at http://www.rpg.net/larp/journal/index.html - go there and click "Issues Archive" and you'll see previous issues. There are only 4 issues, dating back to July 2006, because it's a relatively new journal. But it's a real journal. --Ryan Paddy (talk) 04:08, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Real journal, and a pretty good one, too. The scandanavians have a fairly academic outlook in their Knutepunkt convention. JID doesn't match that yet, but it hopefully will soon. The Bearded One (talk) 05:55, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
  • As I have stated on my user page the station I use for wikipedia usually is only able to access the majority of the web in its archived form. Appearantly 6months ago there were no archived issues of that journal. Even if that's changed, a journal existed on the web for about a year or so w/no archived issues. I will check as soon as I can. Thaddeus Slamp (talk) 05:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article nomination

I believe that this article is now ready for nomination as a Good Article. The writing is of high quality, the topic is covered in appropriate bredth and depth with appropriate citations, it's wikified well, neutral, has appropriate images, and has been stable for some time. Any thoughts before I nominate? --Ryan Paddy (talk) 04:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I have looked over the criteria listed at Wikipedia:Reviewing good articles and I think that Live action role-playing games can pass such a review. I am too involved in the topic to be objective, of course. By all means, nominate away. The Bearded One (talk) 06:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Okay, nominated. --Ryan Paddy (talk) 09:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article review

This article needs significant work before it can be considered a good article. Much of the article completely lacks references. Some of the references are used in an unacceptable fashion. For example, the no-weapons and no-touching rules suggested by the Laws of the Night are extrapolated to imply broader trends. There is a citation needed tag that is in the article since last month. Please review the good article standards. Vassyana (talk) 12:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the review. It sounds like all the issues you have relate to references, is that right? If you have further suggestions, could you please list them so we can make changes?

  • I agree that more references would be good. However, a lot of the material is uncontraversial - for example, do you think that the play overview needs references?
  • The Laws of the Night rules are the most popular single set of LARP rules published (this assertion is referenced in History section of the article), and they really have had an extreme influence. A great many larps in the "theatre style" tradition do have no-touch and no-weapon rules inspired by Vampire (Laws of the Night). Perhaps this needs to be explained more clearly?
  • The uncited statement has been removed. --Ryan Paddy (talk) 18:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
It needs referencing. I do not consider it obvious. After all, the 'fact' that the Earth was flat was considered 'obvious' for a time as well. 71.120.201.39 (talk) 13:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe obvious and noncontroversial material requires referencing. Though it would be preferable if it could be referenced, it is not necessary. You can cite that LotN is the most popular LARP ruleset. You can cite that LotN has no-touch and no-weapon rules. However, it is not appropriate to state that most LARPs follow those rules. LotN says itself that storytellers should ignore rules if they desire and house rules are exceedingly common. You should only report what the sources state. Extrapolating claims from the sources is explicitly forbidden. If you're looking for a detailed review of the article, I would suggest filing a request for peer review and/or posting a notice at the appropriate WikiProject(s). Vassyana (talk) 18:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Hey all - any help in adding and improving references in the article would be appreciated, so that it can be re-nominated. If you spot unreferenced statements that you know of a reference for, please add them. If there are any contraversial statements that references cannot be found for then those statements should be removed. --Ryan Paddy (talk) 22:00, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Society for Interactive Literature

I've removed the following from the History section because it has been unsourced for a long time. I have tried to find a source for this but failed. If we can find a source then it would be good to to re-add it, as it's the only piece of theatre-style history mentioned.

The first Theatre Style LARP group was the Society for Interactive Literature (SIL), founded in 1981 at Harvard University.[citation needed]

--Ryan Paddy (talk) 18:50, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Give me a couple of days (weeks?) and I'll find a source for that quote. I have back issues of Metagame Magazine which was the official publication of the SIL prior to and at the time of its split into SIL and ILF (around 1990-1991). The Bearded One (talk) 04:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The reference just added by Costik in this edit seems like a good one for placing the formation of SIL in 1982: http://www.larpwriting.org/essays/article_ts/ts8.shtml. I think the formation of the society is more relevant than the first known "freeform" event though, seeing the society preceeds the game and SIL was presumably at least experimenting with live play before that event. I'd be inclined to change it from mentioning the first known event to mentioning SIL's formation in 1982, and put it at the end of the previous paragraph so that it hangs with the US stuff rather than sitting amongst the "international spread" paragraph. I'd use "theatre-style" rather than "freeform" too, as that seems to have been the US term used. Fire away with any objections to those proposed changes. Off the topic... Greg, Paranoia was one of the highlights of my teenage years. Respect! Ryan Paddy (talk) 11:25, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Have done what I said above, let me know any issues. Ryan Paddy (talk) 22:02, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Position of LARP in a wider context

I think there needs to be a top-level section that describes how larp as an activity fits in among the other activities it includes or resembles: strategic and tactical games, storytelling, performing arts, craft, sports, etc. Given that it's a young activity, readers may benefit from hearing it described in context and in comparison to more familiar activities. --Ryan Paddy (talk) 03:58, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology section

Would someone please change that section to make sence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.226.41.188 (talk) 20:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the vandalism from that section. I assume that's what you meant. Note that anyone can fix vandalism when they see it, just click the Edit link and fix the text or go to the History list and click Undo on the vandalism item and then Save. --Ryan Paddy (talk) 22:15, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
What if your mouse and keyboard are broken? What if you do not have an internet connection? What if your mother has blocked Wikipedia due to the large amount of pornography available on it? Not just anyone can fix vandalism on Wikipedia. :P 71.120.201.39 (talk) 13:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Then you won't be reading this. Ryan Paddy (talk) 22:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)