Template talk:Literature of Azerbaijan
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This is about the Literature of Azerbaijan. I corrected the template by removing non-related figures such as Iranians for example.Hajji Piruz 00:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
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- They overlap greatly (even if not in the ethnic sense but in terms of regional people being interested in different poets). I am r.v.ing back. --alidoostzadeh 01:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Sure. But then how do the Persian poets fit in and the Azeri language poets that were not born in Arran, Shirvan, or Azerbaijan fit in? I moved the page and changed the article title to encompass a broader spectrum of literary figures.Hajji Piruz 03:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
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- You mean Fizuli (born in Iraq)? Well I think the word "literature of Azerbaijan" is general that pretains without necessarily being in the same geographic location. Although the term is more contemporary, that is people of the republic of Azerbaijan and/or in Iranian regions of Azerbaijan identify with these poets, or the poets had a significant role (like Qatran/Homam/Nizami/Khaghani/Shams/Mahasi..etc. who not Azeri-turkic speaking but nevertheless played an important role in the culture of the region and Iran) and etc. I am not going to get involved in the naming dispute again(Aran, Azerbaijan ,etc..) although I guess Khaghani during his own time would be from Shirvan rather than Azerbaijan, but wanted to just clarify some facts (probably some 40% of Fizuli's work is in Persian) and add some important works. It is for example to note that Jan Rypka who invented the term "Azerbaijani style" of Persian poetry also credits Qatran with the creation of that style. Without Qatran, there would not be the later poets. Or the Safina Tabrizi is one of the ten most important manuscripts of the Islamic era in any language. Qatran also uses lots of Shahnameh imagery and actually has a very deep Iranian attachment and is a very important poet in the Safina. So I think the previous name was appropriate (although the current name is ok also but if there is a dispute I am not going to get involved). --alidoostzadeh 04:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- Piruz, please do not invent titles. All those figures are classified as literature of Azerbaijan. Do not move the article without consensus on talk. Grandmaster 06:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- You mean Fizuli (born in Iraq)? Well I think the word "literature of Azerbaijan" is general that pretains without necessarily being in the same geographic location. Although the term is more contemporary, that is people of the republic of Azerbaijan and/or in Iranian regions of Azerbaijan identify with these poets, or the poets had a significant role (like Qatran/Homam/Nizami/Khaghani/Shams/Mahasi..etc. who not Azeri-turkic speaking but nevertheless played an important role in the culture of the region and Iran) and etc. I am not going to get involved in the naming dispute again(Aran, Azerbaijan ,etc..) although I guess Khaghani during his own time would be from Shirvan rather than Azerbaijan, but wanted to just clarify some facts (probably some 40% of Fizuli's work is in Persian) and add some important works. It is for example to note that Jan Rypka who invented the term "Azerbaijani style" of Persian poetry also credits Qatran with the creation of that style. Without Qatran, there would not be the later poets. Or the Safina Tabrizi is one of the ten most important manuscripts of the Islamic era in any language. Qatran also uses lots of Shahnameh imagery and actually has a very deep Iranian attachment and is a very important poet in the Safina. So I think the previous name was appropriate (although the current name is ok also but if there is a dispute I am not going to get involved). --alidoostzadeh 04:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
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- Then the information in the template should reflect the title of the template. How many of these people belong to the literature of Azerbaijan? Only these: Jalil Mammadguluzade , Yusif Vazir Chamanzaminli , Huseyn Javid , Jafar Jabbarly , Samad Vurgun , Mikayil Mushfig , Rasul Rza , Aliagha Vahid , Mirza Ibrahimov , Suleyman Rustam , Ismayil Shykhly , Anar Rzayev , Rustam Ibrahimbeyov , Chingiz Abdullayev.
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- I'm not the only one inventing terms here. How can you include people not born in the Republic of Azerbaijan and call this template "Literature of Azerbaijan"?Hajji Piruz 15:18, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
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- Have you happen to read Britannica article about culture of Azerbaijan? [1] They included as part of Azerbaijani literature figures other than those listed by you, i.e. pre-1918. Don't tell me that Britannica got it wrong and you know better, it is verifiable info. So please stop another war over the name of Azerbaijan, we've been thru this on many other articles. Grandmaster 17:47, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
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- I think it is good also. In Britannica under Nezami they have [2] (Persian poet), (Persian literature), and (association with Azerbaijan). The ones that overlap with Persian literature or the Azeri literature of Iran I put as Iranian literature as well. I think the template is good. --alidoostzadeh 19:15, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
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- Have you happen to read Britannica article about culture of Azerbaijan? [1] They included as part of Azerbaijani literature figures other than those listed by you, i.e. pre-1918. Don't tell me that Britannica got it wrong and you know better, it is verifiable info. So please stop another war over the name of Azerbaijan, we've been thru this on many other articles. Grandmaster 17:47, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
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I think the title Literature of Azerbaijan is general and covers pretty much the authors that modern Azerbaijani people associated their literature with, regardless of whether those wrote in Turkic, Persian or Arabic. There is no such thing as Literature of Arran or Shirvan, no such term was used by scholars. Also, Muhammad Fuzuli is Azerbaijani Turkic poet, as his most significant writings were in this dialect. Of course, he also wrote in Persian and Arabic, which is mentioned in the template. Ali thanks for your additions. Atabek 21:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- Ok then, if this is about the literature of Azerbaijan, then lets keep it with Azerbaijani figures. This same issue was discussed in History of Azerbaijan and it was agreed not to mix the two regions.Hajji Piruz 00:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
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- There's no consensus for that. None of the editors involved in this discussion agreed to the changes that you made. See Britannica, Nizami is classified as both Azerbaijani and Persian poet, therefore he belongs here. See the article in Iranica about Azerbaijani literature, they included Nasimi, Khatai and Fuzuli as Azerbaijani poets. Do not make unilateral changes to the article. Grandmaster 07:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
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- Context context context context...When they say Azerbaijani and Persian poet, they are talking about language. When the templates title is Literature of Azerbaijan, it narrows down the field. The only option is to move the title back to its previous version if you want to include non-Azeri language poets and none Azerbaijanis (republic citizens).Hajji Piruz 14:44, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
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Theodore Dreiser wrote in English, he is nevertheless American and not English writer. Also, non-Azeri language writers were included in the list by myself and Ali Doostzadeh. Atabek 16:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
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- I restored the old form. I found the following speech which shows that Azerbaijan republic also values its pre-Turkic language heritage. [3] remarkably contributed to enriching the Islamic civilization through its illustrious sons of eminent philosophers, scholars, thinkers, historians and poets like Nizami and Khaquani, Bakhmanyar, Masud Ibn Namdar and many others.. Not only Khaghani/Nizami, but Bahmanyar was a Zoroastrian (hence Persian) and Masud ibn Namdar was a Kurd, but it is good to see this strong identification. I think these two figures can be added on the temple, under "only Arabic writing" (although have to check on Bahmanyar). Bahmanyar is the correct transliteration though since it is بهمنیار which means Yar(friend) of Vohumana (good thought). On the issue of "also shared with Iranian literature" which Atabek brought up on my userpage, let me think about it. Thanks. --alidoostzadeh 23:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
- Okay I removed also Iranian literature and will list those authors separately. I put a small note though that it includes authors of both Iranic/Turkic origin. I will do the same once I edit Persian literature (in this case it includce Iranic, Indic, Slavic and Turkic origins). The reason is that this way people will not fall into the common arguments that plagued wikipedia a while back. Thanks--alidoostzadeh 00:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
- I restored the old form. I found the following speech which shows that Azerbaijan republic also values its pre-Turkic language heritage. [3] remarkably contributed to enriching the Islamic civilization through its illustrious sons of eminent philosophers, scholars, thinkers, historians and poets like Nizami and Khaquani, Bakhmanyar, Masud Ibn Namdar and many others.. Not only Khaghani/Nizami, but Bahmanyar was a Zoroastrian (hence Persian) and Masud ibn Namdar was a Kurd, but it is good to see this strong identification. I think these two figures can be added on the temple, under "only Arabic writing" (although have to check on Bahmanyar). Bahmanyar is the correct transliteration though since it is بهمنیار which means Yar(friend) of Vohumana (good thought). On the issue of "also shared with Iranian literature" which Atabek brought up on my userpage, let me think about it. Thanks. --alidoostzadeh 23:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Contemporary vs. Early 19th to Mid-20th Century
If we choose to divide the template into period sections, don't you think Iraj Mirza and Parvin E'tesami should be placed in Early 19th to Mid-20th Century, as both of them died before 1950? Plus in terms of literary style, they were classical poets and can hardly be considered contemporary. Parishan 07:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
