Talk:Little Ivies

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Redwolf24 (talk) 01:27, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


Self-named group

The Ivy League was a name created in the 50's by those schools themselves. It seems that the term "little ivy" is nothing more than advertising, made up by schools that want to promote themselves as elite and by college guides which want to sell books to students, and upper middle class parents of students, who aren't academically gifted enough to be accepted into a true Ivy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.139.19.20 (talk) 21:01, 27 April 2008 (UTC)








Would Wellesley be considered a "little Ivy?"

Contents

[edit] Conn and Trinity

Master20817 13:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)The Little Ivy League began as an athletic league, just as the real Ivy League, now referred to as the NESCAC (New England Small College Athletic Conference). The term "Little Ivy League" attained some prestige as a common denominator for most of the member schools were the use of exclusive admissions policies and high academic standards. However, there was always a vast different between the academics of say Williams and Trinity, however they always remained in the league together competing against each other as they were, and still are, similar types of schools. The term Ivy League also refers to an athletic league, and many prestigious institutions do not make that list. Why has there not been an uprising against the Ivy League for not including Duke, Stanford, MIT, Caltech, UChicago, and a number of other schohols that have more in common with Harvard, Princeton, and Yale than Brown or Cornell? The answer is because the Ivy League is a historical athletic league, and the Little Ivy League is the same thing. Colgate, Swarthmore, and Haverford are all great liberal arts schools- however they are not members of this league. How could you include only those schools and exclude such great liberal arts schools such as Wellesley, Davidson, Washington and Lee, and many more? The point is- it is nobody's place who edits this page to edit the idea of the Little Ivy League, just as it is no ones place to edit the membership of the actual Ivy League. The Little Ivy League is made up of the NESCAC school members.

Colgate, Haverford, and Swarthmore should be removed from this list immediately- and Trinity and Conn should be reinstated.

There is no such thing as the "Little Ivy League", period! There is, of course, the "Little Three" (Amherst, Wesleyan and Williams). This is firstly an athletic grouping and has been in place since 1899 (originally the "Triangular League"), but its meaning goes beyond sports competition; it also strongly suggests that these three exceptional liberal arts colleges have a LONG and CONSISTENT history of academic excellence (and ACHIEVEMENT in any number of fields) and also share many similar socio-cultural traditions.

This article really should be deleted...

Anthropologique 15:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

I attended one of the listed colleges, and I've never really heard it described as a "Little Ivy." Given the vagueness of this category, I think this page ought to be deleted. It's similar to the absolutely useless term "Public Ivy," a label which has probably been applied to virtually every major state university in the United States. This is a somewhat arbitrary list of top liberal arts colleges; let's leave the "Ivy" label to the football conference that bears that name.

If you think it should be deleted, you have to follow the procedure at the bottom of the page on Votes for Deletion, and the community will hear what you have to say. -Splash 00:53, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)
I'll just leave it as a comment rather than a vote to delete.
Ok. -Splash 01:11, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)

The difference between the "little ivies" and the "public ivies" is that someone actually wrote a well-researched book in the 80's that coined the term "public ivies" and gave a well-thought-out list of them. "Little ivies" is sort of just a catchall term for northeast liberal arts colleges and I have rarely heard the term used, especially related to specific schools. As far as I know there is no official, cite-able list of "little ivies" (and in my opinion, google results do not count as a citation in and of themselves).

This article should be deleted. The term "Little Ivies" is not a widely used term nor is it accepted in the academic community.

- IvyLeagueGrunt 04:59, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Much of this discussion is pretty meaningless. The term "Little Ivies" is a concoction of insecure admissions officers who represent liberal arts colleges that are less than in the elite category. These are not inferior colleges, just some distance from being "elite".

There are only two elite college and university categories (both, of course, having as much to with athletics as anything else) and these are the Ivy League and the "Little Three" (Amherst, Wesleyan and Williams). Of course, there are other great liberal arts colleges outside of the "Little Three", certainly colleges like Swarthmore, Haverford and Wellesley are overall equals to Amherst, Wesleyan and Williams.

Anthropologique 00:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Huh?

Now the page makes even less sense than it did before. Amherst, Williams and Wesleyan are the Little Three, not the "Little Ivies." Why Wesleyan and not any number of equally selective schools -- Swarthmore, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Wellesley, Haverford, Carleton, Pomona, Vassar, Davidson, etc.?

[edit] Redirected from "Little Ivies"?

Why does "Little Ivies" redirect to this page? "Little Ivies" is a term in common use which produces 11 pages of google results. "Little Ivies" may or may not be a useful term, but it is a real term.


The history of this page is a little strange. It looks like someone created the article Little Ivies and put a number of small colleges in it. At some later point, this list was trimmed to just three, those in the little three. I guess at that point someone looked at the page and said "those aren't the little Ivies, those are the little three" and changed the name. Little Ivies then automatically turned into a redirect after the page move.
I think the Little Ivies page ought to be recreated. According to the first few internet sources, the little ivies consist of Amherst, Bowdoin, Hamilton, Haverford, Middlebury, Swarthmore, Trinity, Tufts, Wesleyan, and Williams. I don't know whether this is a contentious issue (in the page history, you can see people adding their own alma maters in the list...).
In fact, to keep the history as relating to the one with the most relevent edits, *this* page ought to be moved back to "Little Ivies", with the names of all the colleges put back, and the "Little Three" page ought to be made with the *current* contents of this page, if that makes any sense.
I'll get round to it this evening or tomorrow, unless someone feels like doing it first.
— Asbestos | Talk 9 July 2005 17:16 (UTC)

I've written Little Ivies as its own article, distinct from the Little Three.


[edit] List of schools

(I think this is what started happening to the article when it was first created)

You've listed the little ivies as

  • Amherst, Bowdoin, Carleton, Middlebury, Pomona, Swarthmore, Wesleyan, and Williams.

The first eight internet sources that listed the schools on a Google search listed tham as

  • Amherst, Bowdoin, Hamilton, Haverford, Middlebury, Swarthmore, Trinity, Tufts, Wesleyan, and Williams.
  • Amherst, Bowdoin, Hamilton, Haverford, Middlebury, Swarthmore, Trinity, Tufts, Wesleyan, and Williams.
  • Amherst, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Swarthmore, Wesleyan, and Williams.
  • Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, Middlebury, Wesleyan, Haverford, and Wellesley.
  • Amherst, Middlebury, Swarthmore, and Williams + 2 others not mentioned (The refer to "4 of the 6 little ivies")
  • Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, Middlebury, Wesleyan, Haverford and Wellesley.
  • Amherst, Bowdoin, Middlebury,Tufts, Wesleyan, and Williams.
  • Amherst, Swarthmore, and Williams.

Carleton and Pomona aren't listed in any of these lists.

As an aside, doing a quick rank of the schools most commonly in the list:

  • Amherst: 8, Williams: 8, Middlebury: 7, Swarthmore: 7, Wesleyan: 6, Bowdoin: 4, Haverford: 4, Tufts: 3, Hamilton: 2, Trinity: 2, Wellesley: 2

As a further aside, I think the list of schools ought to look more like it did in the original version of the page, to make them stand out more: [1]·

— Asbestos | Talk 9 July 2005 17:40 (UTC)

  • Based on this I'm removing Davidson, which was added by an anon. "Little Ivy" + "Davidson College" produces zero relevant google hits. Christopher Parham (talk) 00:58, 2005 August 24 (UTC)

[edit] "Midwestern Ivy League" ?

Contributors to this page may be interested in this article, which has been proposed for deletion:

Midwestern Ivy League

Please review the article and provide your input on that article's Votes for Deletion page. - 18.95.1.22 03:51, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] No lists, please

I am very much opposed to attempting to create any sort of list of "little Ivies," as it would be an exercise in editorial opinion and POV, much like the "list of notable colleges" that was VfDed years ago. Unlike Ivy League or Five Colleges or Public Ivies there is no external reference that can be used as an objective list. Having any sort of list will just be an endless temptation to people to assert that their favorite small college is a "little Ivy." Dpbsmith (talk) 12:35, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

  • I disagree, having a list of the schools commonly referred to as the little Ivies is very useful. The restriction you make that we must have a single external reference that can be used as an objective list would be enormously destructive; we make editorial judgment in making practically every list and category on Wikipedia, and in determining the content of practically every article. I don't see why we should all of a sudden avoid making it here. Having an encyclopedia at all is an endless temptation for people to add their favorite recipe or best friend, and we don't abandon the project, we simply delete the reference, as we could do with incredible ease on this page. I've mostly reverted your changes. Christopher Parham (talk) 17:47, 2005 August 24 (UTC)
    • (Shrug) I agree with your comments that we make editorial judgements all the time. However, my own experience has been that if something is really "common knowledge" it is not all that difficult to find some reasonable outside authority who has put that common knowledge into words. We must agree to disagree. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:26, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
      • Actually, I've changed my mind... having found some sources that do list the "little Ivies" and having added them to the "Examples of use." Most interesting to me is the Boston Globe article that identifies the "little Ivies" with the membership of the NESCAC, which is actually pretty close to lists given by others except that Haverford and Swarthmore are frequently included as well. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:31, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Williams and Amherst are iviest?

At this point, I really do think that "Williams and Amherst" are the prototypical "little Ivies." They seem to be the schools that are always cited. I guess Neutrality is right that at this point I haven't found a good source for that, but I'd like people to keep their eyes out.

For what it's worth: Google hits on

  • Williams "little ivies" 149
  • Amherst "little ivies" 146
  • Swarthmore "little ivies" 90
  • Middlebury "little ivies" 77
  • Wesleyan "little ivies" 74
  • Haverford "little ivies" 51
  • Colby "little ivies" 49
  • Bowdoin "little ivies" 39
  • Tufts "little ivies" 38
  • Hamilton "little ivies" 33
  • Trinity "little ivies" 24
  • Bates "little ivies" 20
  • "Connecticut College" "little ivies" 11

This really does seem to put William and Amherst in a class by themselves. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:17, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

The PERCEPTION that Williams and Amherst are in "a class by themselves" has essentially to do with marketing distortions (so many things are terribly distorted today, aren't they?). Amherst, Wesleyan, Williams, Swarthmore and Bowdoin are clearly all equals - and Middlebury and Haverford rate as "very near" equals...and then there are the "Women Ivies", with Wellesley, Smith, etc. right there with the best.

Anthropologique 16:00, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Anthropologique 16:27, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NESCAC As "Little Ivies"

This is a response the the discussion below which stemmed from Tufts' inclusion in the "Little Ivy" list. The association between NESCAC and the Ivy League seems to depend on geography. In the Northeast, especially in New England, there is a strong link between NESCAC and the Ivy League in that students from top private and public schools attend colleges from the two conferences much more frequently than any other schools or league of schools. Students will often choose between Harvard and Williams, or Brown and Wesleyan. The top two schools chosen by last years graduating class at Belmont Hill School, for example, were Harvard and Trinity. Children of New England brahmin who at one time would have attended now less-accessible ivy league schools now instead often attend schools like Trinity, Connecticut, and Hamilton causing the NESCAC demographic to more closely mirror one that was once predominant at ivy league schools, and still is predominant in popular imagination. Case in point, the association between NESCAC and the Ivy League isn't contrived, but instead exists through a number cultural associations, especially in the Northeast.

[edit] Should Tufts be on this list?

I believe it should be. Although it is a university, its professional programs are not offered on an undergraduate level. It is a very liberal arts intensive school with requirements like a six semester language requirement and an intensive writing requirement that, like in the case of Brown or Dartmouth, create more of a feel of a liberal arts college than that of a research university.

Tufts University is neither small nor a liberal arts college: it has an many graduate students as undergrads, and is probably better-known for its graduate schools and programs (e.g. Fletcher School). I'm not disputing its academic reputation of being worth of a title that suggests an Ivy League-level education, but it seems to be a noticably odd addition alongside small, rural schools like Williams and Amherst. Dylan 13:48, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

They're on the list because they're part of NESCAC, but you're right: the article should probably be amended to note that, while NESCAC tends to get the blanket reference of "Little Ivies" thrown atop it, Tufts ain't all that little. JDoorjam Talk 14:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I removed Tufts. The way I see it, the article offers the NESCAC as one way to determine a little Ivy, but it's certainly not the foremost definition. Since Tufts is largely recognized as a big research school and nothing close to a "little Ivy," it shouldn't be in the list that largely defines the subjects of the article. Dylan 03:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
What is "the foremost definition" and what is your verifiable source citation for that definition?
I disagree strongly and am restoring Tufts and the other NESCAC schools.
If you want to note criteria other than NESCAC membership, fine, but stick to verifiable sources, not your personal opinion that Tufts is different.
Nobody edit wars over the membership of the Ivy League because everyone agrees that its membership is defined by the athletic conference.
Cornell is very different from the rest of the the Ivy League article because it is much newer, having been founded a good century after the others. Should we remove it from the Ivy League article? Stanford ranks a good deal higher in U. S. News than Brown. Should we add Stanford to the Ivy League on the grounds that it really should be considered as a member of the Ivy League because it's a really, really good school?
By all means, find verifiable sources that define lists of "little Ivies" and indicate in the article which schools belong to which lists. By all means, annotate individual schools with neutral, noncontroversial characteristics that might explain why Swarthmore might be included or why Tufts might not be.
Another thought, assuming we have good criteria or good definitive lists from citable sources, would be to make a table, with the schools down the side and Little Ivy inclusion by different sources as columns. For example, we could have a column labelled "Little Three" that would have checkmarks for Amherst, Wesleyan, and Williams, "NESCAC" that would have checkmarks for the NESCAC schools, and so forth.
But the first thing we need to do is have verifiable sources, so that everyone can reasonably agree on which schools should get checkmarks in which columns. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I removed it because its inclusion on the list does not jive with the opening sentence. Read:
Little Ivies is a colloquialism often used in reference to a number of small liberal arts colleges in the northeastern United States, meant to imply that they share some characteristics with the colleges of the eight Ivy League universities, but at a smaller institution.
Tufts is not a liberal arts college. Tufts does share some characteristics with the Ivy League universities, but is not "a smaller institution" (even Dartmouth and Princeton are smaller). It is fundamentally a research institution like many Ivies, and since we have defined in the first sentence a "Little Ivy" as a liberal arts college, Tufts' inclusion means that our article is not internally consistent.
It seems that the only real evidence for Tufts being a Little Ivy is (1) Google hits, which is obviously prone to mistakes and errors, and (2) Tufts' inclusion in the NESCAC. As you pointed out, membership in an organization doesn't prove similarity -- Stanford has virtually all the qualities of an Ivy League school, but it's just not in the club. Cornell does not have some of those qualities, but it is an Ivy. Similarly, just because Tufts is hanging around athletically with a bunch of little Ivies doesn't make it one itself.
Tufts doesn't belong here because not only doesn't it fit the description, but its inclusion sets a precedent for including virtually any prestigious university with less than 5,000 undergrads on the list. If Tufts, then why not Rice? Why not Carnegie Mellon? Why not Colgate? Because while you might be able to contort the definition of "Little Ivy" to fit those schools, the purpose of the list is not to mention every single school that might possibly qualify. It is to give a concise list of examples of the schools that most hit the profile of a Little Ivy (or, in the words of the article, those that are "Frequently mentioned institutions"), and while we may disagree on whether Tufts is a Little Ivy at all, you must surely concede that it is not the best example. Dylan 21:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
You have made a good and sensible case for putting something in the article pointing out that Tufts is anomalous. As for your last point, this is precisely why it is important to anchor the article in verifiable source citations. If Tufts, then why not Rice? Because Tufts is in the NESCAC and Rice is not. If "Little Ivies" is just a list of schools that are good small schools in the opinion of Wikipedia editors, then the article should not exist at all. Everything depends on demonstrating that it is well-defined phrase with a well-understood meaning.
I'm guessing that actually we are essentially in agreement: we want to have some kind of firewall to prevent the article from becoming an arbitrary and ever-expanding list. And I'm guessing that you think I might be a Tufts booster; if so you would be wrong. I personally think "Little Ivies" should be identified with the "Little Three" (Amherst, Wesleyan and Williams) and made that case earlier, but I wasn't able to get that to fly. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:20, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I understand...my only thing with the NESCAC is that it seems arbitrary. Yes, Tufts is in it, but what other than the opinion of a Boston Globe editor connects the NESCAC to Little Ivyhood? The second letter of most of the listed institutions is a vowel (just as most of the schools thought of as Little Ivies happen to be in the NESCAC), but second-letter vowels would obviously be a completely arbitrary way of defining a Little Ivy. While the NESCAC is a fixed organization that can provide an organization foundation, I don't see how it is any more relevant than vowels.
Anyway, how about moving Tufts (and maybe some other less-recognized little Ivies like Trinity and/or Hamilton) off the list and to the next line, prefaced with something like "These schools are sometimes but not always mentioned as Little Ivies" ? Dylan 23:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
You want to remove Tufts because it's not small. What's your reason for removing Trinity and Hamilton, which are?
What's wrong with my suggestion of a table, rows = schools, columns = criterion and authority for that criterion, and checkboxes for the schools that meet the criteria?
I won't quibble too much with anything that's sourced. You personally don't accept the Boston Globe as a source, fine, but it's a published source and it meets the verifiability policy. That doesn't mean it's the only source or that other sources might not definite it differently. But, it's a source. That's the way verifiability works. We tell people what reputable published source said so, and we let them decide whether they credit that source.
What's your source for "the present list minus Tufts, Trinity, and Hamilton?" Dpbsmith (talk) 23:40, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I suggested the shift in the Trinity and Hamiltons more for rhetorical effect than a real idea: I think that they're on sort of the lower end of the academic spectrum of the other schools, that are meant to be held to "Ivy" standard (and this is quanitifiable in terms of accepted student test scores, percent of students admitted, etc.). At any rate, I'm just saying that there are other schools on the list that are less established and agreed upon as Little Ivies as, say, Amherst and Williams, and so those schools (whichever we decide they are) might do better off of the main list, but still with mention in the article.
I'm fine with the idea of the checkbox system (and perhaps a more in-depth description of why there is controversey and what some of the factors are). Going back to the Tufts thing, though, I don't think it should be in this article at all because it blatantly violates the critera for a Little Ivy that are laid out in the very first sentence. While using the NESCAC is apparently a "verified" way of describing a Little Ivy, it seems that it has only been used as a meterstick by the Globe in that one article. I've never heard of it as a way to decribe a Little Ivy, and it seems that the consensus would be against this method as a widely-used one. Just because this has been published doesn't mean it any way reflects public consensus (which is ultimately what defines a Little Ivy, since there is no official list).
If the NESCAC is our only reliable meterstick, why are Haverford and Swarthmore present? Dylan 04:12, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
One reason is that I've never made a point of addressing them. They need source citations, and I believe I'll tag them now. However, I'm reasonably sure that good source citations can in fact be found, which is why I've been dilatory about addressing them. No, they are sourced, see below
The point is, I'd be very interested in finding other "reliable metersticks." But that's different from using our best efforts to construct a definition (which is what we've done) and then fiddle with the list to match the definition.
I can't prove it or source it, which is why it isn't in the article, but I strongly suspect that the situation with respect to the Little Ivies is very similar to that with the Ivy League. Both began as a not-completely-formal group of three schools that played each other in athletic contests (the "Big Three," Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, and the "Little Three," Amherst, Wesleyan and WIlliams). The reason that they played each other reflected social structure as much as geographical proximity. As the colleges became engines for the advancement of the white-Anglo-Saxon power structure, both groups of schools also became known for their social prestige. In both cases, the group of three eventually expanded into a larger, more formalized athletic association (the 1950's Ivy League and the ummm-what-year NESCAC). In both cases, the other schools in the larger group became incorporated by courtesy and common usage. Still, Harvard, Yale and Princeton have a special position within the Ivy League, and Amherst, Wesleyan and Williams have a special position within the little Ivies. That's what I suspect. But it's staying on the talk page until I can confirm it by reliable sources.
If I'm right, the "Little Ivies" ought to be: a) (primary meaning) Amherst, Wesleyan, and WIlliams; b) (also) by extension, other schools in the same athletic league, i.e. the NESCAC; c) (in common parlance) any good small liberal school that was traditionally male and has former trappings of white Anglo-Saxon social prestige. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:01, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I still disagree with using the NESCAC at all. Googling "little ivy" nescac yields only 33 results, while "little ivy" -nescac yields 10,400. I usually don't trust Googling results, but that's such a dramatic difference that it really seems like the vast majority of discussion about Little Ivies completely omits the NESCAC, and whoever dug up the Globe article just happened to stumble across an obscure and little-used definition.
On the other hand, I think that the reason why Haverford and Swartmore are here (and I'm guessing that they would be met with much more support for inclusion if someone wanted to remove them) is because we can all just agree that they fit the profile of a Little Ivy: small, elite, Northeastern liberal arts colleges. In my experience (and probably most everyone else's), this is the only real definition.
If you want to use the NESCAC, I think you need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this is a commonly-used and agreed-upon definition. One Globe article doesn't do this, and Googling "little ivy" nescac" at 33 results and "little ivies" nescac" at 35 doesn't bode well for it. It seems much too arbitrary and uncommon for inclusion. Dylan 12:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
It's a source, Dylan, and it's a reliable source. And the article states clearly that it is the Boston Globe's authority that's being used. Readers that don't believe the Boston Globe knows what it's talking about don't have to agree.
This article was nominated for deletion and one of the reasons was that people were just using it as yet another subjective list and a way to promote their favorite schools.
I keep asking you for other sources and your only answer so far is that you don't like this one. Fine, let's add some others. The big advantage of NESCAC is a) it is sourced, and b) everyone can agree on which colleges are in the NESCAC. Nobody is going to agree on which colleges fit the definition of "small, elite, historically male Northeastern liberal arts colleges" and folks are going to keep dropping in and adding any school they like and want to pay a compliment to. ("Historically male" is important; it explains why Vassar, Holyoke, Wellesley, etc. have traditionally been called the "Seven Sisters" and not called "Little Ivies."). Dpbsmith (talk) 13:28, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd forgotten the article history. The reason why I haven't objected to the inclusion of Haverford and Swarthmore is that they are sourced. The references just weren't connected with their mention in the article. Swarthmore is sourced to an article in The Atlantic Monthly, which is pretty good. Haverford is sourced to the Tamalpais Union High School District's website, probably their guidance department's page, which is fairly sucky; it's a list of terms which is probably borrowed from a better source. But it is sourced. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:45, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
By using the term "Little Ivy" and comparing it to the Ivy League, it's giving us the parameters right there! Little -- smaller than an Ivy. "Ivy" -- up to the Ivy League standard in terms of admissions and academics (which as you can see from companies like the Princeton Review is quantifiable in every way imaginable). All the others, too, are static, verifiable parameters: in the Northeast, historically male, liberal arts college. The only thing that can reasonably be called into contention about those things is what level of academics befits inclusion on the list, and I think that as a community, we can come to a consensus on each school and whether it is as competitive as the Ivy League. We should expect admissions percentage, SAT scores, etc., etc., etc. to fall in and around the eight Ivies.
You seem to be clinging to the Globe because it's been published, but that doesn't make it in any way appropriate for inclusion. I could dump a quote from a book of Jerry Falwell's into the Beliefs section of the Christianity article, but that would be totally unfair because the vast majority of the world's 2 billion Christians probably don't agree with him. Similarly, sticking an obscure opinion that goes demonstrably against or away from the popular opinion on what constitutes a Little Ivy is simply ludicrous.
The reason why I'm not suggesting new sources is because it doesn't seem we need them. You and I both seem to have the same list of parameters for a Little Ivy (historically male does seem like a good point), and with that, we don't need a source to give us a list of colleges. If the parameters are acceptable -- and from day 1 of this article, it seems like everyone has a good handle on what they are -- we can deduce the qualifying colleges ourselves without searching for someone else to do it for us. Dylan 13:50, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I think you'd better reread the verifiability policy. Publication is exactlywhat we need. Point one of the capsule summary is "Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources." And there's a comment which is very relevant to the Boston Globe example: "Verifiability in this context does not mean that editors are expected to verify whether, for example, the contents of a New York Times article are true.... Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources, regardless of whether individual editors view that material as true or false." Dpbsmith (talk) 17:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
In that case, we need to completely excise any mention of critera (e.g. being historically male, in the Northeast, older, academically distinguished, and socially prestigious). If we can only go by what people publish (and we only have, from Atlantic Monthly and the Globe, a list of schools without their criteria), we cannot include that third introductory bullet point. Dylan 17:55, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

<<<<<<<<< Resetting margin...

I concur. I just put a {{fact}} tag on it and will remove it in about a week if nobody comes up with a source citation. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I disconcur, a stance I do not engage in lightly, because "disconcur" is, in fact, not a word. Greenes' The Hidden Ivies: Thirty Colleges of Excellence (a book I know you to be familiar with, Mr. Smith) says, in its first paragraph, "Other universities such as Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, Virginia, Duke, Georgetown, and the group historically known as 'the Little Ivies' (including Amherst, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Swarthmore, Wesleyan, and Williams) have scaled the heights of prestige and selectivity and also turn away thousands of our best and brightest young men and women." (Obnoxious emphasis mine.) The entire first chapter is excerpted here on Harper Collins' website. I would think this suffices, gentlemen? Cheers, JDoorjam Talk 20:26, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Works for me. I don't see this as a source for a definition of the characteristics of a little Ivy. But it looks like a good source for a competing list. I think we now have the makings of a table with rows for each school and three columns: a) the "Little Three," b) NESCAC (the Globe is not the only source for this but the others I've found aren't very good), and c) the Greenes. (Hey, Swarthmore but not Haverford? Harumph. Why, the name "Haverford" even looks and sounds like "Harvard.") Dpbsmith (talk) 21:48, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Seeing how the "Ivy League" is a NCAA DI atheletic conference, shouldn't we define "little ivy" as a NCAA atheletic conference, ie the NESCAC? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.213.222 (talk • contribs) 19:05, November 8, 2006

Not necessarily - "Little Ivy" is used in different contexts (as you can see from the article). Since the definition of exactly who is a member of the Little Ivy League varies based on who you ask, it'd be hard to reconcile that with an inflexible definition of an NCAA league. Dylan 00:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Little Ivy piggy-backing and sprinkling

"Little Ivies" has been tacked on to "Ivy League" in a significant number of edits. In other places, especially a very significant number of preparatory school articles, language has been added using both terms, such as “Numerous graduates from this school have gone on to Ivy League schools, “Little Ivies,” and other excellent institutions.” As these seem to simply be link-dumping and semi-symbiotic peacockery, it is my intention to remove these links. JDoorjam Talk 20:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Baby Ivies

As said in the revision history, "Baby Ivies" is, at most, a colloquialism for highly selective pre-schools, not the "Little Ivies". JDoorjam Talk 21:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization

It's kind of a minor issue, but it should probably be decided upon so that we all know what we're doing. Which shall it be?

  • Little Ivies
  • little Ivies
  • little ivies

All three tend to appear from time to time, and I've usually changed them to Little Ivies, but I figure we just might want to get some consensus. Any opinions? Dylan 23:10, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

"Little Ivies" seems appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Swampyank (talk • contribs)
I concur. JDoorjam Talk 00:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Go ahead. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:59, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greene and Greene

What does this category mean? Someone please explain or I will be tempted to delete this category of the list seeing how I have done extensive research on the term, Greene and Greene, but still can't find out what it means.

  • It's a reference to a college guide in a well-known series, Greene, Howard and Mathew Greene (2000) Greenes' Guides to Educational Planning: The Hidden Ivies: Thirty Colleges of Excellence, HarperCollins, ISBN 0060953624, excerpt at HarperCollins.com. This wasn't completely clear so I've added a footnote at the column head and tweaked the wording of the third bullet item. And on second thought I'll change it to "Greene's Guides" since that seems to be a better term for the series. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Greene's Guides' "Little" or "Hidden" Ivies are "thirty schools of excellence," listed in one of its college guides, "Hidden Ivies." These schools are mostly small liberal arts colleges, thus, the schools Green's Guides considers constituting the "minor ivy league," so to speak. While the book excerpt quoted above mentions which schools the author notes were viewed as "little ivies" in some circles in the past, the schools Greene's Guides considers as such in the present are detailed in the following list on the cover of their book "Hidden Ivies": HarperCollins.com nywalton (talk) 23:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
There's a big difference between the "Little Ivies" and anything else, like "hidden Ivies," "minor Ivies," etc. "Little Ivies" is a common and particular term; "hidden" or "minor" Ivies are just terms for expressing the fact that they're good schools, even without being in the Ivy League. Note the quotation:
...such as Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, Virginia, Duke, Georgetown, and the group historically known as “the Little Ivies” (including Amherst, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Swarthmore, Wesleyan, and Williams)...
The author of the abstract states right there that not all 30 schools in the book are "little Ivies," but that there is a specific, historical group called by many the little Ivies.
This should be reverted unless G&G states explicitly that those other schools are "Little Ivies." Dylan 23:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
  • G&G's comment on what was historically viewed in some circles as "Little Ivies" is an uncited colloquial reference and thus is not a verifiable source. Additionally, the reference says "including..." and thus is not limited to the schools mentioned. I'm not sure how the Google searches listed above were conducted, as all the searches I have conducted on this term have at least included Bates, Colby, and Haverford (and occassionally Hamilton), in this group, all highly selective (and originally majority male) small liberal arts colleges, that are almost always included as "Little Ivies"

nywalton (talk) 06:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

No, actually that's the definition of a cited source: it's a published, reliable, authoritative source that states what some of the Little Ivies are, and it specifically states that it's not just some term they thought up, but a "group historically known as the 'Little Ivies.'" I agree with you that the "including" means that G&G could think that others are also Little Ivies, but they don't mention any other names explicitly, and it's not our job to guess.
Bates, Colby, Haverford, and Hamilton are all in the table in this article, and feel free to add citations in the "Notes" section of the table to support that, but G&G does not refer to them as 'Little Ivies' and I am therefore going to revert the page. Dylan 11:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

nywalton, we need to have a clean definition of what does and doesn't go in this article so it doesn't revert to its previous state in which people drop in and insert any school they like or to which they wish to pay a compliment. If you want to include other schools, you need to find something that everyone here will accept as a reasonably definitive source. And you need to discuss it and get consensus here.

I'm not sure who keeps removing

Greene and Greene's guide, The Hidden Ivies: Thirty Colleges of Excellence uses it to refer to "Amherst, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Swarthmore, Wesleyan, and Williams," schools which it says have "scaled the heights of prestige and selectivity and also turn away thousands of our best and brightest young men and women."

but that is a direct quote from the excerpt at http://www.harpercollins.com/global_scripts/product_catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060953624&tc=cx and it is accurate.

You may disagree with Greene and Greene's judgement, but it is an accurate quotation from a print source that is a well-known college guide and has a reasonable claim to authority.

What do you propose as a definitive, citable source as to what the phrase "Little Ivies" does and does not include? Dpbsmith (talk) 13:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


The "Little Three" (Amherst, Wesleyan, Williams) are the "Little Ivies" or "Potted Ivies" and because of the rich history between them, these schools will ALLWAYS be known as such. There are a only a handful of other liberal arts colleges that meet the FULL "Little Ivy" criteria.

Anthropologique 02:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NESCAC

Master20817 14:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)There are no FULL or PARTIAL criteria for membership in the Little Ivy League. It does not refer to "Hidden Ivies" those are schools judges by one publishing company to be "Hidden Ivies" it does not even try to use the term Little Ivy League. It also does not refer to the "Little Three"- that also refers to exactly what it says- the "Little Three" schools of Amherst, Williams, and Wesleyan, which to note, are not by any means the most prestigious schools in the league- Wesleyan's place would be replaced by Bowdoin or Middlybury. The Little Ivy League refers solely to the Athletic league- the NESCAC. The list of schools are slightly eclectic, as Tufts is larger and a university, not a college, Connecticut College is less prestigious, etc. However, this is the league was created and this is what the term refers to, any acadmec merits associated with the league are merely a social construct, as I mentioned above- a common factor in many of the schools is their academic standards and admissions policies.00re


There is no "Little Ivy League"! The term is a vacuous creation by people who want to boost the public perception / image of certain schools. There is ONLY the "Little Three" - yes it is an ancient informal athletic grouping (since 1899), but it also suggests much more: That Amherst, Wesleyan and Williams have a LONG and CONSISTENT history of academic excellence (and outstanding achievment in many fields) and share similar socio-cultural traditions.


Before deleting the well-sourced material that's in this article documenting different uses of the phrase, please provide substantial evidence to support your contention that NESCAC is always the only meaning of "Little Ivy." This seems to directly contradict what many of the sources cited in the article (that User:Master20817 deleted!) say about the phrase's meaning. -- Rbellin|Talk 12:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

If you really believe that Wesleyan is less prestigious than a Bowdoin or Middlebury you are probably accepting of the woefully distorted marketing garbage that U.S. News puts out every September. Take the sciences for example: Wesleyan overall has by far the strongest science departments of any liberal arts college in the country. It ranks first in NSF (National Science Foundation) funding among its peer institutions (more than double its nearest competitor). Moreover, it is the only liberal arts college to receive funding from the NIH (National Institute of Health); right there with much larger research institutions such as Harvard, Duke, UPenn, Chicago and Johns Hopkins. How about scientific publications? Number one again among liberal arts colleges (more than double of second ranked "Little Three" rival, Williams). Now, that is clearly prestigious! I could go on and on...

Anthropologique 00:35, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] no connection to the ivy league

swampytalk:

I noticed you reverted the changes made on the little ivies entry (removing dubious claims about these colleges being somehow connected to the ivy league). Unfortunately, you didn't give any rationale for why you did this. I assume you realize that "little ivies" have no actual connection to the ivy league, despite what a college guide book may claim. That's why all references to the ivy league were removed. 75.69.133.211 (talk) 12:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The name "Little Ivies" is based on these schools' perceived similarities to the Ivy League and marketed as such. References to the Ivy League are certainly warranted to further inform the reader. Add a criticism section if you disagree instead of censoring legitimate information. Swampyank (talk) 18:33, 19 April 2008 (UTC)