Talk:Lithuanian Chess Championship

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[edit] Tournament info

Using the chessdb software with the downloadable database (all free), it is possible to find more results (using the tournament finder). The same goes for the other national championships. Up until now, I only included the names if I found also another reference for it. My question:

  • Is this ok to include those without any other reference? PGN databases can be very unreliable.
  • And how would you reference it? Here as an example, the crosstable for the 1995 edition
LTU-ch
Vilnius, 1995
Average Rating: 2272
                             Rtng    Age Nat    Score       1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    Perf Chg
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1: Zapolskis, Antanas       2360  im 33 LTU   7.0 /  9   31b= 26w+ 28b= 19w+  8b+  3w+  5w+  2b- 14w+   2527 +18
 2: Piesina, Gintautas       2400  im 43 LTU   6.5 /  9    9w+  6b+  7w+  3w= 27b+  5b- 14w+  1w+  4b-   2514 +13
 3: Sulskis, Sarunas         2470  gm 23 LTU   6.5 /  9   36w+ 30b+ 12w+  2b=  5w=  1b- 15w+  7b+  6w=   2512  +5
 4: Kaunas, Kestutis         2415  im 53 LTU   6.5 /  9   10w- 34b+  8w- 39b+ 36w+ 26b+ 23w= 13b+  2w+   2404  -2
 5: Ruzele, Darius           2500  gm 27 LTU   6.0 /  9   19b+ 27w= 16b+ 20w+  3b=  2w+  1b-  6b=  8w=   2457  -5
 6: Sakalauskas, Vaidas      2320  im 24 LTU   6.0 /  9   38b+  2w- 25b+ 16w+ 15w+ 13b=  7b=  5w=  3b=   2465 +16
 7: Bilinskas, Raimundas     2245     34 LTU   6.0 /  9   40b+ 14w+  2b- 11w= 28b+ 22b+  6w=  3w- 17b+   2422 +20
 8: Slapikas, Vytautas       2275  im 22 LTU   6.0 /  9   37b= 44w+  4b+ 27w=  1w- 12b+ 13w= 15b+  5b=   2500 +22
 9: Skrebnevskis, Romanas    2160     20 LTU   6.0 /  9    2b- 29w+ 17b= 32b+ 22w- 28w= 31b+ 16w+ 18b+   2365 +22
10: Mikenas, Alius           2200     40 LTU   5.5 /  9    4b+ 16w- 14b= 17w+ 11b- 18w- 37b+ 27w+ 22b+   2359 +18
11: Linauskas, Dainius       2320     32 LTU   5.5 /  9   35w+ 13b= 15w=  7b= 10w+ 14w- 18b- 36b+ 21w+   2334  +2
12: Dambrauskas, Virginijus  2340  im 33 LTU   5.5 /  9   45b+ 17w+  3b- 22w= 26b-  8w- 41b+ 29w+ 23b+   2273  -7
13: Butnorius, Algimantas    2440  im 49 LTU   5.0 /  9   22b+ 11w= 18b= 28w= 20b+  6w=  8b=  4w- 19b=   2333 -14
14: Lapienis, Donatas        2345  fm 59 LTU   5.0 /  9   39w+  7b- 10w= 36b+ 24w+ 11b+  2b- 18w=  1b-   2310  -5
15: Grabliauskas, Virginijus 2410  im    LTU   5.0 /  9   26b= 31w+ 11b= 18w+  6b- 27w+  3b-  8w- 29b+   2283 -14
16: Slekys, Emilis           2340     44 LTU   5.0 /  9   41w+ 10b+  5w-  6b- 30w= 19b+ 32w=  9b- 28w+   2299  -5
17: Rocius, Marijonas        2275     32 LTU   5.0 /  9   21w+ 12b-  9w= 10b- 42w= 35b+ 20w+ 32b+  7w-   2232  -4
18: Zukauskas, Kestutis      2290        LTU   5.0 /  9   43w= 42b+ 13w= 15b- 19w= 10b+ 11w+ 14b=  9w-   2302  +1
19: Novikov, Vitalij         2245        LTU   5.0 /  9    5w- 35b+ 43w+  1b- 18b= 16w- 38b+ 25b+ 13w=   2222  -2
20: Survila, Rimvydas        2255     40 LTU   5.0 /  9   33w+ 23b= 24w+  5b- 13w- 30b= 17b- 40w+ 32w+   2326  +8
21: Lasinskas, Povilas       2175     25 LTU   5.0 /  9   17b- 22w- 46b+ 29w- 34b+ 42b+ 30w+ 26w+ 11b-   2188  +1
22: Kryzius, Kestutis        2225     16 LTU   4.5 /  9   13w- 21b+ 30w+ 12b=  9b+  7w- 26w= 23b= 10w-   2263  +5
23: Macionis, Andrius        2330     19 LTU   4.5 /  9   46b+ 20w= 27b- 26w- 29b+ 31w+  4b= 22w= 12w-   2159 -17
24: Rumiancev, Boris         2285  fm 59 LTU   4.5 /  9   44b= 37w+ 20b- 31w+ 14b- 25w= 29b- 35w= 26b+   2217  -4
25: Varnas, Vygantas                  25 LTU   4.0 /  8   32w= 43b=  6w- .... 39w+ 24b= 28b= 19w- 36w+   2239
26: Sarakauskas, Gediminas   2160  im 18 LTU   4.0 /  9   15w=  1b- 33w+ 23b+ 12w+  4w- 22b= 21b- 24w-   2262 +13
27: Pavlovicius, Vladimir    2325        LTU   4.0 /  9   34w+  5b= 23w+  8b=  2w- 15b- 36w= 10b- 33w=   2231 -10
28: Martinkus, Rolandas      2265        LTU   4.0 /  9   42w= 32b+  1w= 13b=  7w-  9b= 25w= 30b= 16b-   2252  -1
29: Grigoriev, A                               4.0 /  9   30w-  9b- 34w+ 21b+ 23w- 33b+ 24w+ 12b- 15w-   2191
30: Labuckas, Aidas          2320  im 27 LTU   4.0 /  9   29b+  3w- 22b- 37w+ 16b= 20w= 21b- 28w= 35b=   2095 -18
31: Samulevicius, Tomas      2110     15 LTU   4.0 /  9    1w= 15b- 42w+ 24b- 43w+ 23b-  9w- 37w= 40b+   1943  -7
32: Slivinskas, Mindaugas    2255        LTU   4.0 /  9   25b= 28w- 44b+  9w- 37b+ 38w+ 16b= 17w- 20b-   2048 -16
33: Zebelys, Rimantas        2205     42 LTU   4.0 /  9   20b- 45w+ 26b- 40w- 44b+ 29w- 34b+ 38w= 27b=   2119  -6
34: Godlauskas, Kazys                 17 LTU   4.0 /  9   27b-  4w- 29b- 46w+ 21w- 39b+ 33w- 45b+ 41w+   2136
35: Grigutavicius, Dainius            13 LTU   3.5 /  8   11b- 19w- 45b+ .... 40b= 17w- 42w+ 24b= 30w=   2125
36: Gedgaudas, Raimundas     2225        LTU   3.5 /  9    3b- 46w+ 38b+ 14w-  4b- 40w+ 27b= 11w- 25b-   2145  -5
37: Smirnovas, Jevgenijus             56 LTU   3.5 /  9    8w= 24b- 41w+ 30b- 32w- 45b+ 10w- 31b= 38w=   2109
38: Jocys, Dalius            2155     35 LTU   3.5 /  9    6w- 39b+ 36w- 43b= 41w+ 32b- 19w- 33b= 37b=   2094  -6
39: Kondroska, Vaidotas      2080        LTU   3.5 /  9   14b- 38w- 40b+  4w- 25b- 34w- 46w+ 41b= 45w+   2055  -2
40: Zeromskis, Egidijus                        3.0 /  9    7w- 41b= 39w- 33b+ 35w= 36b- 43w+ 20b- 31w-   1936
41: Sulskis, Giedrius        2045     19 LTU   3.0 /  9   16b- 40w= 37b- 44w+ 38b- 43b+ 12w- 39w= 34b-   1906  -5
42: Surplys, Giedrius                 15 LTU   3.0 /  9   28b= 18w- 31b- 45w+ 17b= 21w- 35b- 44w- 46b+   2070
43: Kincinas, Rolandas                   LTU   3.0 /  9   18b= 25w= 19b- 38w= 31b- 41w- 40b- 46w+ 44b=   1929
44: Klimkevicius Laizanas, A                   3.0 /  9   24w=  8b- 32w- 41b- 33w- 46b+ 45w- 42b+ 43w=   1786
45: Skarulskis, Robertas     2060     16 LTU   2.0 /  9   12w- 33b- 35w- 42b- 46b+ 37w- 44b+ 34w- 39b-   1209  -9
46: Chmielevskis, R                            0.0 /  9   23w- 36b- 21w- 34b- 45w- 44w- 39b- 43b- 42w-   1175
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
206 games: +76 =54 -76

Voorlandt 20:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

It might violate Wikipedia:Reliable sources, and maybe, to some extent, even Wikipedia:No original research. However, if enough precautions are taken, it might be a good idea to apply Wikipedia:Ignore all rules... The citation might be something like "Extracted from database 'Link to download'. More reliable source is needed.". If it is added for every single instance, maybe it would be OK. If (when) a bettes source is found, it would be replaced. Finally, you might wish to ask if someone in the relevant Wikiprojects has a better source. --Martynas Patasius 18:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure. I think Shane accumulated a lot of his games scores from Crowther's TWIC, so at least some of the data can be reliable. I think we can use chessdb as a reference, as databases can be OK as references. The problem as you note is that I think chessdb synthesizes crosstables from its game scores, and it's hard to know if this is entirely reliable. Also, we have trouble if there were tie breaks involved. In favor of chessdb is that it is free and so it's available for inspection by anyone, so errors can be found and corrected. Maybe you should ask for opinion at WT:CHESS, since (sometimes) there are more people participating there than on an article's talk page. The great work you and Mibelz are doing on the national chess championships makes me want to see if we can work on Category:Chess competitions to fill it out with some of the missing important tournaments. Quale 02:31, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for your input. After having used it more often, I think that crosstables from pgn collections are too unreliable to use. There was another tournament from a national ch where there was a clear winner according to the crosstable. But online I could find several sources saying that somebody else won (according to the crosstable nr 2). I went over the games of the alleged winner and found that one game had a 1-0, where it should clearly have been a 0-1 (a mate in two). 1-0 or 0-1 they are so easily mixed up. Misinformation can hurt much more than no information, and I think wikipedia should play a responsible role (especially since we can expect people copying these tables). That said, tournament crosstables are very useful to find possible tournament winners, and to work from there (ie in my case google). Voorlandt 10:10, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Early history

I think there has been a little discussion of the early history of the Lithuanian Championship scattered on some user talk pages. The stubby lead I wrote for this page [1] was better than what we have now stylistically because it mentions the page title, but of course it is no good at all if it isn't accurate. I based that sentence from Golombek 1977 (listed as a reference) which says:

The first tournaments in Lithuania were held in 1920 and 1921, but were only local events even played without clocks. Only from 1929 onwards were there any serious events by modern standards. That year the first Lithuanian championship was held, and the following year Lithuania became a member of FIDE.

This of course doesn't match up with the championship numbers we have, for instance that 1943 was the 12th championship. It may be that the information in Golombek is wrong, or that it was right in 1977 but isn't today because the earlier tournaments later became regarded as the first Lithuanian Championships. Ultimately it's the decision of the Lithuanian Chess Federation that matters.

Lietuvos Sachmatu Federacija (1930/1991) Zone 1.7
Address: P.O.Box 18, LT-01002 Vilnius, Lithuania
Tel (370)5-274 70 17
Fax (370)5-274 70 17
email info@chessfed.lt
WWW: http://www.chessfed.lt

Their website purports to be available in Lithuanian, Russian, and English. Unfortunately English is the only language of these I can read, and most of the English translated pages seem to be blank. Quale 02:26, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Lithuanian version of that website is not much more useful in this matter... However, I have found a book "Šachmatų taisyklės" (Vilnius, 1994), prepared by Lithuanian Chess Federation and Department of Physical education and Sport. It includes a different list, having A. Gustaitis as champion for 1922, Z. Machtas - for 1923, 1924, 1926, 1927, 1928, 1931, 1932, A. Jeglinas - for 1929, V. Mikėnas - for 1933, 1934, 1935, 1937, 1938 and I. Vistaneckis - for 1941 (the list then goes on to 1994, but that is no longer "Early history"). No champion is given for 1921, 1925, 1930, 1936, 1939, 1940. It notes that from 1922 to WW2 the champion was normally decided by a match between the previous champion and the winner of Championship of Kaunas (later - the Championship of Lithuania). The champions of Kaunas (until 1932) are given as: capt. Rimša for 1921, A. Gustaitis for 1922, Z. Machtas for 1923, 1924, 1926, 1931, 1932, M. Luckis for 1927, 1928, A. Jeglinas for 1929, Z. Machtas and J. Vistaneckis for 1930. It is also noted that A. Gustaitis had to play a match wth B. Blumenfeld, who left and A. Gustaitis became champion without match. It is also indicated that in 1927 and 1928 Machtas played matches with S. Gordonas from Klaipėda (instead of the champion of Kaunas), while in 1931 the champion title was awarded without a match. In 1932 Machtas defeated Mikėnas, who took the second place in the championship. However, Vladas Mikėnas in "35 metai prie šachmatų lentos" (Vilnius, 1961; p. 46) writes that A. Machtas officially became champion of Lithuania in 1926. He calls the tournament that started in October 16, 1931 (won by A. Machtas) "unofficial chess championship of Lithuania". That might explain the numbering - in such case only the actual matches would be considered official and counted. --Martynas Patasius 15:10, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you so much for this! The sources you have are far superior to the sources used in the article and will hopefully allow to make things work. A couple of questions:
  • Was there a championship in 1944 and 1946?
  • Currently the numbers in the articles seem to fit if we take 1929 as first championship, which coincides with Golombek. However, lt:Vladas Mikėnas mentions (I think) that he won the championship in 1936 also. If this is the case then the count starts at 1930, which would fit even better, since Lithuania joined FIDE then.
  • Is A.Machtas distinct from Z.Machtas? who was it then who won 1931?
  • Do you have the results of 1991-1997?
  • Do you know the cities of 1965 and the first editions?.
  • Do you know how Povilas Vaitonis did in the 1934, 1937, 1938, 1942, and 1944 editions? According to his article Povilas Vaitonis, he won these championships. Would be nice to know if he at all participated in these editions.
  • Do you know the missing first names?
Thanks a lot for your input! Voorlandt 23:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'll try:
  • Championship of 1944 is marked as "unfinished" and there was no championship in 1946.
  • It looks like "Z. Machtas" is just a typo in the book ("A" and "Z" are near each other in the keyboard). In his book V. Mikėnas writes he has played with A. Machtas.
  • A. Uogelė "Mano šachmatai" (1993) lists Š. Šulskis as winner of championship in 1991, V. Dambrauskas - in 1992, A. Butnorius - in 1993 (all three championships took place in Vilnius). "Šachmatų taisyklės" adds Š. Šulskis as winner in 1994.
  • Championship of 1965 took place in Vilnius. V. Mikėnas notes that he played the match with Machtas (in 1932) in Kaunas. I would suspect that the other championships before WW2 also had to take place in Kaunas.
  • Povilas Vaitonis actually won the championships in 1934, 1937 and 1938. However, the victory in the championship meant that he had to play a match with a defending champion (V. Mikėnas in all these cases) for the champion's title, and Vaitonis lost all these three matches. Since the championship of 1944 was left unfinished, maybe he was leading? L. Abramavičius is given as a champion for 1942.
  • I do not know a first name of A. Jeglinas or M. Birmanas.
I hope that helps. --Martynas Patasius 16:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you so much for this! I followed your data where it was different from what we had. Could you have a look at it and perhaps update the references? I think we should have another column in the table with the match details before 1942 (for instance first column winners of the match, second column winner of the championship) Maybe someone has a good idea on how to makes things as clearly as possible. Because now the table only tells half the story. Voorlandt 21:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)