Template talk:Lists of Marilyns

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[edit] Flags

I preferred the version with the flags (or map of NI — I don't care which): it makes it more interesting. Can we have it back? — ras52 21:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with the flags as long as the Ulster Banner is not used for Northern Ireland, but some editors on WP are promoting a POV and insisting on using this flag even though it has had no legal status for 35yrs, and can't even be flown on government buildings in the north.--padraig3uk 21:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The United Kingdom article uses this flag

here. I would say that we should follow what that article does — this isn't really the place to argue about the relative merits of the different flags / national symbols / etc. Alternatively, would Saint Patrick's Flag be less partisan? I'm anxious to avoid this becoming too contentious, but equally I would like to see some form of images, preferably flags, again. — ras52 04:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Do for what, N Ireland, no, the Ulster banner is not the flag of Northern Ireland, and neither is the St Patricks flag, I fail to see why some people are so obsessed with using flags, but if they must be used then they should be factual not the flag that a certain POV wants to promote.--padraig3uk 06:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, there isn't an official flag of NI, other than the Union Flag which isn't any use if we want to distinguish the different parts of the UK. Lots of similar articles / templates use flags as a way of making the article more visually interesting, and I think this should do too. Personally, I think this should just do {{flagicon|Northern Ireland}}, and thereby delegate the decision as to what that displays to that template. I'm aware that it currently uses the Ulster banner, which I'm aware has unionist connotations, which isn't wholly desirable. But I think we should be consistent across Wikipedia, and using that template seems the best way to do that. I suggest you discuss it on that template's talk page if you feel it is inappropriate, as I don't think this is the right place to make this decision. — ras52 10:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Ras, Patrick has been making it his life's work to eradicate references to the Northern Ireland flag from Wikipedia, don't take it as a personal insult against this template. While the flag isn't official, it is the only one used to represent Northern Ireland as a distinct entity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Megaman83 14:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Megaman83, Northern Ireland dosen't have a flag, WP is suppose to presents facts, if Northern Ireland or any other country dosent have a flag then it is not the place of Wikipedia to create one for it, that is what politicans are for, the flag in question was never the flag of the Northern Ireland state it was the flag of the devolved Northern Ireland House of Commons setup in 1921 and disbanded in 1972/73, the flag was used to represent that government not the state between 1953-72. I'am not trying to eradicate references to the Ulster Banner it has historical importance in the history of Northern Ireland and should only be used on templates that refer to the period 1921-72 relating to Northern Ireland and its government, or within articles on Northern Irelands history.--padraig3uk 15:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The official status of the flags is entirely irrelevant. We want a little image like the others to represent Northern Ireland, and this —

Northern Ireland – does the job nicely. Reading anything more into it is a mistake. --Stemonitis 15:56, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Not if your from northern Ireland where that flag represents Loyalist sectarian extremists.--padraig3uk 16:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

But that's evidently not what we're trying to represent here; we are choosing the best available symbol for Northern Ireland. It's not perfect, but it's the best we've got. It must be clear to you by now that your views go against the consensus of editors. In that context, any further removals may well be seen as vandalism. By all means discuss your concerns, but don't act against the consensus, as is the case here. --Stemonitis 16:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The only offical flag is the Union Banner why is that not used, rather then a unoffical flag, and removing false information and POV is not vandalism.--padraig3uk 16:21, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

If, by "Union Banner", you mean the Union Flag, then it's because that does not identify Northern Ireland specifically. Indeed, it would single it out as the only area to have that more general flag, while England, Scotland and Wales (where the Union Flag is also official) have their more specific flags. --Stemonitis 16:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

At least it is a offical flag, rather then a unofficial one, with sectarian overtones, also it is not used for the other parts of the UK.--padraig3uk 16:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Read my comment above. It doesn't identify Northern Ireland. Someone seeing the Union Flag thinks "United Kingdom" (or perhaps "Great Britain") rather than "Northern Ireland". Thus, it would be misleading. You must learn to accept that we will continue to use that flag to represent Northern Ireland, whether you like it or not. --Stemonitis 16:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Why do you need to use any flag, especially one that is unoffical, is there a rule on WP that flags must be used.--padraig3uk 17:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

It makes the links much more intuitive. Humans are visual animals, and a picture can convey more information more quickly than almost anything else. --Stemonitis 17:21, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

That flag dosen't convey any info or images related to hills or mountain climbing to me, it conveys sectaranism and hatred, nothing else.--padraig3uk 18:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

No Padraig3uk - the flag represents Northern Ireland, and many good honest, decent, hard-working people from Northern Ireland who have had nothing to do with the conflict see it as the flag of the region of their birth - just because some Loyalist thugs decide to place the flag of the region which the are trying to 'defend' on their murals does not mean that the flag belongs to them. In a similar manner, just because the IRA and INLA used the tricolour flag of the Republic of Ireland does not mean that the flag belongs to them either.

What is portraying sectarianism and hatred are persons who initiate a campaign to remove a flag of a region that they and their tribe don't particularly like to exist [1]. If you are truely against sectarianism and hatred then perhaps you should have a long and hard think about why you and friend have been enacting your recent disruptive campaign throughout wikipedia to remove Northern Ireland's flag.

I would also encourage other editors here to please take a look at what padraig3uk et al have been recently doing on other wikipedia pages such as Northern Ireland and List of British flags.

Jonto 19:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Jonto, the flag dosent represent Northern Ireland, the British Government have even stated that the flag can't be used on Government Buildings, as for the flag of the region of their birth I was born there this flag is not my flag and never was it was the flag of the NIHOC government between 1953-72, it was never the flag of Northern Ireland as a state, WP is about presenting facts not conveying the POV of certain editors. Because the truth dosent suit your personal POV dosent make you right.--padraig3uk 19:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

It does represent Northern Ireland in a de facto way - there is no other flag in existence that does that, and to deny that you are kidding yourself. You also are purposely distorting the British government position. Wikipedia is there to represent things as how they are - and that is that this is the de facto flag to uniquely represent NI. You are simply using wikipedia as a propaganda vehicle to attempt to discourage the use of the NI flag because you personally don't see it as a flag you like - this is not what wikipedia is for. Jonto 19:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Jonto, how am I distorting the British government position, the British government disolved the NIHOC in 1972, in 1973 it past a bill in parliament to strip it of all its powers, this flag was the flag of that government not Northern Ireland, under the 2000 Act the only offical flag the British government recognise for N Ireland is the Union Flag. I have no objection to the Ulster Banner being used on articles or templates relating to the period of the NIHOC 1921-72, or about Loyalism in the North today, but I do object to people trying to convey some status on this flag it dosent have or deserve.--padraig3uk 20:01, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

No one is conveying "some status on this flag it dosent have or deserve", hence it is described as de facto. Jonto 20:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopdeia Britannica says: According to British tradition, a coat of arms or flag is granted to the government of a territory, not to the people residing there. Therefore, when the government of Northern Ireland was disbanded in March 1972, its arms and flag officially disappeared;--padraig3uk 20:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

exactly - that is why it is as de facto now as it was in the 1950s. Jonto 20:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not supposed to convey anything related to hills or mountains: it's supposed to be a visual identifier for Northern Ireland. — ras52 19:10, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

It dosen't represent Northern ireland, in fact it never did, it is a POV flag used by one section of the population and has no official status.--padraig3uk 22:05, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

This is the wrong the place to hold this discussion. This article is using the neutral {{flagicon|Northern Ireland}} template. If you don't like what that template is doing, please take the discussion there. If you can get that changed to display a map or similar, then this article will get the change. And if you're unable to get that changed, it suggests there is no consensus in favour of the change and this article shouldn't be changed either. — ras52 19:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and would rather padraig3uk et al would keep their comments in one place, rather than spreading their campaign throughout the entire site. Jonto 20:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I suggest a re-opening of the mediation cabal. Fennessy 14:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template's current state

Ras52, this issue has been largely resolved elsewhere, see the main N Ireland page, here;Template talk:United Kingdom regions, and here;Template talk:United Kingdom constituents and affiliations. A flag that is not recognised by the government of the United kingdom(or any other government for that matter), and is actually illegal to fly from a government building in N Ireland itself does not represent N Ireland. The issue had died down significantly here & also elsewhere(Stemonitis seemed to agree with my edit), please just leave it in this netrual & correct state. You have "appropriate" "visual identification" so just drop it & let it die already. Fennessy 13:30, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

"Largely resolved"? You're kidding, right? Looking at both the links you provide, the argument seems very much to be continuing, and the two templates are frozen in different states (one with the Ulster Banner, one without). As I've said repeatedly, I don't particularly care what image is chosen. The whole point of using {{flagicon}} is to move the argument elsewhere. Feel free to replace the flag in the country data template with that map icon, if you want. I'm happy with it. But don't bring the dispute back to this page. The outcome of the previous MedCab case was to keep with {{flagicon}} as by doing so, anyone who can muster a consensus on {{Country data Northern Ireland}} can change the image across the board, and anyone who can't probably shouldn't be making changes at all. — ras52 13:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, look at the recent discussion. Like I've said elsewhere, this issue doesnt need a consensus. Thats like saying as long as you get enough people to claim that a living person is dead on their wikipedia article talk page, its OK to put that in the article, even if its an established fact that the person in question is alive. You have completely failed to address the fact that this flag does not represent N Ireland as a political or territorial entity in the present day. Fennessy 13:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Look, the reason I haven't "addressed the fact that this flag does not represent N Ireland" is because I've never argued that it does; indeed I've repeatedly said I don't care what flag or icon is used. What I object strongly to is the way the argument is being conducted. So far as I can see, there are some people who have nothing better to do than argue all day long about which flag is used, and this gets repeated over and over again with different results on different pages. One side is arguing that the UB is not a legal, official flag and therefore shouldn't be used in Wikipedia, and that it has partisan (Unionist) connotations which are offensive to some; the other side thinks the UB, whilst not legal, is still the most representative symbol of NI and is commonly understood. As both arguments have validity, some compromise (such as the map icon) may well be the way forward, but even when a compromise is reached on one page, the argument starts afresh on another page. That is why I want this settled in one central place. At the moment, it's being treated as a war of attrition with the argument usually being "won" by which ever side has most time to devote to pursuing it. Surely the last hundred years of Irish history has taught us that that isn't the way to do things?

The {{flagicon}} template was designed as a general purpose way of putting flags into templates/pages such as this. By writing {{flagicon|Northern Ireland}}, I'm saying "please give me a suitable flag (or whatever) for Northern Ireland". I'm not specifically requesting the Ulster Banner, or the Tricolour, or St Patrick's flag, or a map icon Northern Ireland, or no flag at all; I'm deferring the decision to a template, {{Country data Northern Ireland}}, that ought to be able to give me an appropriately neutral image. Now it's clear that at present that template isn't giving me an appropriately neutral image, but that's the problem of that template, not this one. So go to that template, discuss the issue there, and assuming you can gain consensus, change that template. Then the result will propagate to all the individual pages using {{flagicon}} without any requirement for the argument to propagate here.

— ras52 14:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

While you make a good point about the template, you must know by now that the situation is further confused by the fact that N Ireland has never, officially or unofficially, been issued a flag by the government of the United Kingdom(which accounts for the Ulster banner's sporadic continued use in a sports context). I think any neutral observer would agree that the use of no falg is better than an offensive one that has no official status(incidentally, many flags could claim de facto staus for N Ireland, hence the need for a neutral symbol). But I'm glad progress seems to be being made at the country data link you provided. Fennessy 15:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The Ulster Banner page states "It was the official flag of the Government of Northern Ireland from 1953 to 1972" — is that incorrect, then? Or am I missing the point you're trying to make? In any case, I'm quite happy to see {{flagicon}} display no flag or image at all, if that is where consensus takes us; or have it display a neutral image other than a flag. My point all along has been about where this should be resolved, not about the actual proposed resolution(s). — ras52 15:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

It wasnt issued by the government of the UK, they had no part in its creation or use what-so-ever. It was invented by the government of N Ireland prior to 1973. It's just a represention of the coat of arms in flag format. Even its historical usage is dubious at best. Fennessy 15:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

That's interesting. You might want to contemplate editing the UB page to clarify that, as it the UB page gives me the impression that it was officially granted. (Note: I'm not doubting what you say, just suggesting that the UB page might benefit from a bit of tidying up to clarify the situation.) Anyway… you said I "make a good point about the [{{flagicon}}] template", and that "progress seems to be being made at the country data link [{{Country data Northern Ireland}}]" which is very good to hear. Does that mean that if I revert the edit to use {{flagicon}}, you won't revert it again? I'm prepared to accept whatever decision is made on the country data template; are you? — ras52 15:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Well seeing as in three days time the Ulster banner wont be in use anywhere else on wikipedia to represent present day N Ireland, I really dont think thats nessasary. The thing is this flag needs to be kept for ease of use on N Ireland football/sport related wikis; that doesnt mean that the Ulster banner has any validity for any other kind of use. Unfortuanty zealots have tried to exploit that grey area, but this seems to be the end of it for now. Fennessy 15:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

What's happening in three day's time then? — ras52 15:47, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The Template:United Kingdom constituents and affiliations page comes out of lock—— its the only place left on all of wikipedia where the Ulster banner is still in incorrect use. Fennessy 20:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

So basically you're saying that there will be another edit war and that this is a good thing? — ras52 22:28, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

So basically I'm saying that everything will be sorted out & there will be a uniform way of correctly representing N Ireland.

1. Look at the talk page discussions— there is wide agreement to in fact not use the UB. People can claim there isnt all day but that flys in the face of the facts.
2. Not that there would even need to be agreement— the UB isnt the flag of present day N Ireland by law.
3. Look at the recent edits, the people trying to put the UB back up refuse to discuss anything on the talk pages or engage in any kind of reasonable discourse what-so-ever. They are the only ones trying to edit war.
End of story really. Fennessy 23:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

So far as I can see, you, padraig and Vintagekits all argue that because the flag isn't offical, it shouldn't be used. To me that's specious; however you have a very good argument that it is sectarian and offensive to some. And Astrotrain and Biofoundationsoflanguage argue that despite not being official it is widely recognised as representing NI. And neither side is listening to the other side's arguments. I don't think anyone disputes that the flag is not offical. And I find it hard to believe that anyone who is familiar with the UB (however much they dislike it) would not realise it is being used to indicate NI (rather than, say Wales or Jersey). The real question is: is the UB considered offensive to more than a tiny minority of the population? I have no idea. (Nor for that matter would I want to say how small a fraction would be needed to be a "tiny minority".) If it is, your case seems very strong; if not Astrotrain's is. Now, I'm not trying to argue in either way: I don't have the facts to do so. However, I think it's rather disingenuous of you to claim that only the pro-UB faction is refusing to discuss anything — I can see lots of comments by both sides on a whole lot of talk pages.

I genuinely believe that people on both sides are editing in good faith. I can fully see how you find the use of the UB repugnant and representing sectarianism that should have no place in Wikipedia. However, I can also see that others think that having a flag recognisable to many people is more important than the fact that it is offensive to a smaller number of people. (And it is ipso facto the case that the flag is recognisable to more people than it offends: if it weren't recognisable, it wouldn't be offensive.) And unfortunately, it seems to result in one side thinking they represent a moderate, reasonable position, whilst the other side are dyed-in-the-wool Unionists / Republicans, which I'm sure is untrue.

I'm sorry this is a long message, but I don't believe you have reached a consensus, and I don't believe that re-opening the edit war on Thursday is the way to achieve one. (Unless, of course, you can point me to messages by some of the pro-UB faction suggesting that they now agree to some alternative.) Don't you think that some sort of formal mediation / arbitration would be a better way of doing sorting this out?

— ras52 14:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure a formal mediation would be best, as long as it doesnt come to a "we neither condone nor reject its use" cop-out at the end of it all. Its important to point out that the symbolism in the flag isnt just offensive, its deliberately offensive.
Whats more I doubt very much its going to help people recognise N Ireland, seeing as its no longer in any kind of real world use, & it looks exactly like the St George's Cross of England unless you look closely. I for one didnt even realise the flag existed until I saw it in use for a football match a few years back. Fennessy 15:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

See this here.--padraig 15:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maps instead of flags

I've not especially keen on the current mixture of flags and maps in this template, though it seems that consistently using flags will remain controversial because of the interminable dispute over the flag of Northern Ireland. Because of this, I have created a new set of thumbnail maps that I hope will allow us to create a clearer and more consistent template without getting involved in the flag dispute. I would therefore like to propose the following new version.