Talk:Lists of Irish Americans

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Tim Russert is dead. Nandor1 (talk) 19:44, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Lists of Irish Americans article.
Article policies
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on July 4, 2006. The result of the discussion was Keep.
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on March 6, 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Contents

[edit] Eddie Murphy and African-Irish surnames

I don't know how Eddie Murphy got his nameItalic textbla bla blaaaa. Only a skilled researcher could establish that, and no one in their right mind would take his or her time to do the research except a member of the family involved.

BUT many African-Americans have Irish names, which seems odd, because there can't have been that many actually Irish slave owners, can there? The big waves of Irish immigration only came at the last 20 years of slavery in the U.S. Scots came over earlier and I would suggest also that some of the names may be not Irish but Scottish in origin. Hard to tell them apart at times.

I would suggest ways some people may have gotten their seemingly Irish surnames.

1) Taking the owner's name upon emancipation, for want of another surname. 2) Taking the name of a Union soldier who freed them? 3) Africans had no surnames that survived slavery, but Irishmen were also slaves and their surnames may have survived since they mostly spoke at least some English. They may have taken the names of the Irish slaves they lived with/married, etc. (English slavers sold as many as 100,000 Irish, as well as some Scots and Englishmen, into slavery, mainly in the Carribbean, but also in North America. Redneck is an African slave term for the sunburnt Irish slaves.)

Redneck hasn't actually got anything to do with either sunburn or the slapping of the neck due to mosquitoes. The term derived from the wearing of red or orange scarves around the neck which denoted that the wearer was affiliated to the Orange Institution. --Mal 18:40, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I look forward to Will Smith being labelled English-American ..... ;o) 86.17.247.135 17:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Banning Lapsed Pacifist

I am not a wikipedia expert, but obviously Lapsed Pacifist is only here to sabotage this page as he continues to try and claim Eddie Murphy to be Irish. If there is any Wikipedia expert or administrator that views this, is there a way to ban Lapsed Pacifist from editing this page? 64.109.253.204

Now according to Lapsed Pacifist and Wikipedia, Ella Fitzgerald, Jimi Hendrix, Billie Holiday, Alex Haley, Ishmael Reed, Alice Walker are Irish-Americans. 64.109.253.204

If Lapsed Pacifist isn't banned from editing this page, than wikipedia is really just a joke. 64.109.253.204


Alphabetical. The lists were alphapbetical by last name.

Any help with this would be very much appreciated. As would adding this page to the "lists of Americans by ethnicity" (as Italian-American, Iranian-American, etc are). - johnhpaulin

[edit] Alphabetical

People don't read the list as alphabetical in current format I would suggest adopting a lastname, firstname middle initial (if any). This will make it clear, easier to find a name you may be interested in, and Make it easier to place in new names in the proper place. SusanLarson 5 July 2005 06:14 (UTC)

I'm not an expert. I just normally think of alphabetical being about the last name. My personal preference is alphabetical by last name, like it was, but I am just one person. I feel kind of bad that you did all the work to make the lists alphabetical by first name, but now it is how it used to be.

I am agreeing with the alphabetical by last name. I am just suggesting that it be done in a Lastname, Firstname MI (middle initial if any) see below:
From 

Literature
* Tom Clancy, novelist
* James T. Farrell, novelist
* F. Scott Fitzgerald, novelist
* Cormac McCarthy, novelist
* Tim O'Brien, novelist
* Flannery O'Connor, short story writer 
* Eugene O'Neill, playwright

to 

Literature
* Clancy, Tom, Novelist
* Farrell, James T, Novelist
* Fitzgerald, F. Scott, Novelist
* McCarthy, Cormac, Novelist
* O'Brien, Tim, Novelist
* O'Connor, Flannery, Short story writer 
* O'Neill, Eugene, Playwright

That is how most people naturally want to read a list of names. SusanLarson 5 July 2005 06:35 (UTC)

[edit] John Barry, Father of the American Navy

This would more accurately be ascribed to Esek Hopkins, "On December 22, 1775, Esek Hopkins was appointed the Naval Commander-in-Chief, and officers of the Navy were commissioned." Suggest removing it from John Barry and replacing it with "An officer in the Continental Navy and later in the United States Navy" SusanLarson 5 July 2005 06:19 (UTC)

[edit] Eddie Murphy

Eddie Murphy is not Irish, Lapsed Pacifist, and you know he is not Irish. Why do you continue to put him on the list? The joke is getting old.


I assure you I am not attempting any "joke". None of the people on this list are Irish nationals, they are United States citizens of Irish descent. If you know of another country where people called Murphy come from, I'd really love to know about it.

Lapsed Pacifist 5 July 2005 06:45 (UTC)

Eddie Murphy is African-American.

What makes someone an Irish national? What list are you talking about?


Murphy is part African-American. Many other people on the list have some mixed ancestry. I find your reverts sinister, to say the least. An Irish national is a citizen of Ireland. It's in Europe.

Lapsed Pacifist 5 July 2005 06:58 (UTC)

Kevin McBride, Tom Sharkey, P.H. McCarthy, Hugh O'Brien, William O'Dwyer are on the list and they were all born in Ireland.

Eddie Murphy is mostly African-American and there is no way of knowing if he has any Irish ancestry.


His name suggests to me he has at least some Irish ancestry, unless you can prove otherwise. If you want to exclude him because of his mixed ancestry, you would have to apply the same principle to the rest of the list, which would shorten it considerably. Can you prove beyond doubt that every other person on the list is definitely of Irish descent?

Lapsed Pacifist 5 July 2005 07:12 (UTC)

Murphy was his slave name.


I presume you mean his family's slave name. You sound confident, so prove it. Otherwise he stays in, along with all the others who are not 100% ethnically Irish.

Lapsed Pacifist 5 July 2005 07:22 (UTC)


All the others are known to be Irish. Eddie Murphy is not known to be Irish. The others that are not 100% Irish still know of their Irish heritage, talk of their Irish heritage. Your argument is just ridiclious.

Eddie Murphy is just not Irish and there is no proof to him being Irish. There is proof to everyone else on the list to being Irish. You are just being an idiot saying we should take off everyone that is not 100% ethnically Irish. If we put on Eddie Murphy, than why not put the names of every American on the list, for the slim chance they might have some irish roots.


Lapsed, I can prove to you everyone on this list is Irish. You cannot prove that Eddie Murphy is Irish.

Lapsed, you haven't responded to this because my point is too good for you to argue. You should just realize when you are wrong and not be childish about it.

Is there any source which states that Eddie Murphy has Irish ancestry? Has he stated it himself? If not, it makes no sense to keep him on the list. Jayjg (talk) 6 July 2005 23:41 (UTC)
I'm with you, Jayjg. Until someone can provide proof of Eddie Murphy's Irish heritage, preferably a statement by Eddie Murphy himself or a reputable biographer (Maltin's bio at IMDb makes no mention of it at all), this is being removed. —chris.lawson (talk) 7 July 2005 00:21 (UTC)


Why remove Murphy when no "proof" has been offered for the other entries? Where are the sources for the Irish ancestry of the rest of the list? Who will provide proof, "preferably statements" by themselves, or "a reputable biographer"? And what exactly are the criteria for the list? Would one Irish ancestor be enough? Would a potential entry have to be at least one-sixteenth Irish, or one-eighth?

Lapsed Pacifist 7 July 2005 00:42 (UTC)

Proof for all the others is mostly common knowledge and in many cases can be found on there page. Lapsed Pacifist, do you really need proof that John F. Kennedy is Irish? 64.109.253.204

  • Remember, an Irish last name is not enough. A lot of people can have them with out ancestry, especially with African-Americans. There are a lot of instances where slaves ended up with the surname of their owners...that doesn't make them Irish. I would also argue that a good standard might be the same that the Native Americans use for whether or not you can receive tribal benefits. That is 1/8th. It means that one of your great grandparents was of that ancestry. Wikibofh 7 July 2005 04:24 (UTC)
    • As an alternative, we could use what is used on other lists. If the person's article does not assert the Irish descent, then they would not be included on this list. Wikibofh 7 July 2005 04:45 (UTC)

Hello, I am new here, so perhaps my addition is done incorrectly. I am of Irish descent myself, and I know this, being a 2nd (or 3rd) generation American. All of my grandparents came from Ireland. Now, in examining this page, it seems to me that, without asking the theoretical question "Who is of Irish descent", it is, on this page, anyone with any traceable ancestry to that island, and that some of the names on this page look like people who simply have an Irish (or Irish sounding) last name. Establishing someone’s ancestry takes more than that. Many Americans of East European, Germanic, and French descent, for instance, have Anglicized their names in order to “fit in” better with their new surroundings. African-Americans, in particular, are a difficult subject (in this regard) since, during the period of slavery in the South, slaves were not, contrary to popular opinion, given family names by their masters. Apparently, slave owners wanted to suppress the notion of family ties among their slaves. This is because the owners viewed their slaves as property and wanted to be able to sell them at any time, individually, without creating any undue emotional stress upon, or resistance from, those to whom the sold slave may have been connected by familial bonds. The slaves, in response, secretly gave themselves last names, which they chose, in order to concrete their familial bond. To claim, in other words, that Eddie Murphy, for instance, is of partial Irish descent, merely on the basis of his last name is ridiculous. Perhaps it would be better to ask him if this is true. And to ask, as well, of the others who are listed here if they know of any Irish ancestry on their part?

Okay, and Sean Combs is English, Venus and Vanessa Williams are Welsh, and Sidney Poitier is obiously French. And Jon Stewart is undoubtedly a Scots-American, because that's his last name. Ever consider the fact that most African-American surnames are assumed ones, either in the form of former slave-names, or after whatever homestead they acquired when freed. And regarding John Leibowitz/Stewart, celebrities often assume easily palatable "white bread" names, because Mr. Schwarzenegger aside, consonant clusters and Zs in a name are a hindrance to fame.

[edit] Muhammad Ali

www.boxing-memorabilia.com/aliirish.htm

I was skeptical. However, this explains it fairly well and is reputable. I was going to revert my change, but LP beat me too it. Wikibofh 7 July 2005 03:55 (UTC)

I wouldn't be suprised if LP was unaware of this and now regrets listing him because it turns out he is actually Irish.

  • Please be civil. I made a change, and it was a mistake, and I came back to fix it and LP beat me to it. There is no reason to be snide about him making a legitimate revert. FWIW, I meant to apologize to LP in that last message, but forgot. So, I'm apologizing now. Wikibofh 7 July 2005 04:19 (UTC)

See also http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2002-03-13/176.asp

Lapsed Pacifist 7 July 2005 03:59 (UTC)

[edit] Qualification for Sports

Is poker considered a sport? Right now Dan Harrington is listed in others. 64.109.253.204

  • I don't think so, but I think it's an area of some ambiguity. I would argue that the criteria in Sport exclude it, but it has been included in List of sports. Wikibofh 7 July 2005 19:13 (UTC)

[edit] Scotch-Irish

Should the Scotch-Irish really be included on this list? 64.109.253.204

  • Since we don't have a criteria for inclusion yet, why not? Once (or if) we get one, then they would be included due to Irish ancestry, and being Scotch-Irish would be no different than anything else. Wikibofh 7 July 2005 22:45 (UTC)

I think Scotch-Irish are ethnically Scottish. 64.109.253.204

  • Ok, so to be on this list right now, the criteria are:
  1. You are American (meaning a US citizen in this context)
  2. Of Irish descent.
That's it. So you could be both of these, and also be of Scottish descent and be Scotch-Irish and still belong on this list. Unless we tighten up the requirements for #2.
Wikibofh 7 July 2005 22:57 (UTC)

Are Scotch-Irish really Irish though?

  • Yes they are really Irish. Not only as they are from the island of Ireland but also because Scoti is Latin for Irish. The Scotis where an Irish Gaelic clan that invaded the land of the Picts and made it the land of the Scotis, or Scotland.

what are Scotch-Irish ? surely it is Scots-Irish ? palx

  • Yes, they are the same as well as Ulster-Scots.

64.109.253.204

REPLY - The Correct term is Scots-Irish. This refers to people specifically from the 9 Northern Counties of the Province of Ulster in Ireland today 6 of Which are called "Northern Ireland" and are a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. People who are classified as "Scots-Irish" (note Scotch is not the correct term for people from Scotland and is offensive) These Scots-Irish people are descended from the Ulster plantations by King James I who in order to try and solve the "Irish" problem simply took the land off the native catholic Irish and turned it over to new Protestant settelers from Scotland - over the interveining centuries the people of Ulster that were predominantly Roman Catholic became mixed with Scottish settlers that were predominantly Presbyterian (Protestant), during the Highland Clearances after the Battle of Culloden in the 18th Century many (Catholic) Highland families such as the Campbells and MacDonalds chose to settle in Ulster rather than cross over to America and Canada. Northern Ireland has a distinct local accent that is similar to both Southern Irish and Scottish. There is a particular English dialect spoken in Northern Ireland that is called Ulster Scots. In addition it is also necessaary to point out that there is a very close affinity between people from Scotland and people from Ireland in that they are both "Celtic" people and were at one time the same people all originally coming from Ireland both sharing, language and culture and genetically the same - the marked difference between the countires happened during the Reformation when Scotland became a Protestant country while Ireland remaned Catholic. In America particularly Scottish and Irish people both representing large waves of immigration to the country during the early 18th Century did mix on a large scale and thus the term Scots-Irish developed that is specifically used for those early settlers that were predominantly Protestant from Northern Ireland speaking "Ulster-Scots" settled mainly in the original 13 colonies has now been applied to people that have both a Scottish and an Irish ancestry but not a Northern Irish ancesty as the term implies. To further confuse the situation Scots-Irish is a term normally used by Protestants to define their Northern Irish heritage whereas Catholics from Northern Ireland simply refer to themselves as "Irish". An example of this is Judy Garland whose maternal line is distinctly Scottish from Ardbroath and Kilmarnock (names Milne and Kelso) and Irish from Dublin and Meath (names Fitzpatrick and Harriott) but is oftern mistakingly classified as Scots-Irish. Andrew Jackson and Thomas Jefferson were "Scots-Irish" as their ancestry was from Northern Ireland Stephen Boyd, the Actor from Belfast, county Antrim was "Scots-Irish" yet Liam Neeson also from County antrim Northern Ireland woudl not be considered Scots-Irish but rather simply "Irish" because he is Catholic. Scots-irish people are Irish Americans but can also be a individual list as there is much documnetation and histrorical research on this particular group that is specific to Northern Ireland heritage. 86.12.253.32


  • Given our current criteria, as long as they meet #1, they are that as much as they are Irish-Americans. Wikibofh 8 July 2005 00:12 (UTC)
The concept of "Scotch-Irish" is largely American. It's not something you hear Irish citizens or Brits use. So while this article is about Irish-Americans, it will be read by non-Americans, who may not understand why persons from the six counties are excluded. The writer Ronald Hutchinson's parents are from Ulster, for example, and he's "Scotch-Irish," but he shouldn't be excluded from a list of Irish-Americans, IMHO. David Hoag 15:14, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Well according to Lapsed Pacifist everyone in America is Irish-American until proven otherwise without any possible doubt.

  • I would argue that when the term Irish American is used it is usually used in reference to people of Irish Catholic descent so in my opinion there should be a separate list for those of Irish Protestant descent who would be mostly Scottish or English in origin and have quite different migration histories to Irish Catholics. Arnie587 01:48, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Scots-Irish Americans are descended from Scottish settlers who immigrated to Ulster during the 17th Century [Plantation Period]. Till this day, in [Ulster], they are culturally and linguistically distinct from the native Irish population. As a Scots- Irish American I am offended by the ignorance of the Irish-American community.[Jack Higgins] October 2005

  • If you want to get into history of 17th Century than why not go back to where the Scots (Scotis) came from. Scoti being the Latin word for Irish. The Scotis where an Irish Gaelic tribe that migrated to the land of the Picts which became the land of the Scotis, aka Scotland. So to say that Scots-Irish (or Ulster-Scots) are different than Irish than you might want to research more. The 17th Century Plantation, although forced, was more of a reunion than anything else (during the Penal Laws the Presbyterians suffered just like the Catholics, wasn't until 1834 that the Orange Order accepted Presybterians as 'Protestant'). John Mullanaphy, Nov 2005.

Scots-Irish are not Irish, they do not consider themselves Irish there is a long history of animosity between the Irish and Scots-Irish (protestants from Scotland put in Ireland by the English), the Northern Ireland issue is because these two groups hate each other. There should be a seperate list for Scots-Irish people and one list for actual Irish Catholic (I know not all Irish people are Catholic but how can you say 'real' Irish without offending anyone). Scots-Irish are totally different, get them off this list

Whoever you are, you're right. Irish Catholics are no more "real Irish" than Irish athiests. And not all Protestants were "put in Ireland by the English". There has always been much coming and going between the islands - especially between Ulster and Scotland, as they're only about 20 miles apart.
On top of this, Protestantism only existed in the British Isles since around the 16th century, a little while after it actually came into existance as a Christian sect. Are you suggesting that all people who accepted this new form of Christianity are somehow.. unreal.. surreal.. as opposed to "real"?!?
I am Irish. My family has been both Presbyterian and Church of Ireland for hundreds of years. Before that, presumably my ancestors were Roman Catholic. Before that.. pagans, druidic.. whatever. The point being that my ancestors can be traced as to living in Ireland for over a thousand years. The exception is one of my maternal grandfather's ancestors, who was a Scottish Quaker. In this respect, I consider myself to be Ulster-Scots or Scots-Irish. But generally just Irish.
As for Scots-Irish being "totally different". In what way(s) are they different please? Is it just religion? If that's the case, why don't you go off and create a similar article containing only those people who are specifically Roman Catholic Irish Americans. Its rich of you to talk of the "animosity" and "hate" when you quite obviously harbour some similar feelings yourself. --Mal 08:43, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, ignorance does make it more difficult to avoid offending people :) It is not true to say that Scots-Irish people are not Irish - otherwise they would just be Scots. Even Ian Paisley is happy to describe himself as an Irishman. In response to Jack Higgins above, the Scots-Irish are not "to this day" linguistically distinct from the "native Irish population", although during the periods of mass emigration they were, the "native Irish" speaking Irish and the Scots-Irish speaking Scots/English. Nowadays practically everybody on the island speaks English.
I think this part of the discussion highlights a fundamental problem with this list: there is no accepted or objective criteria for deciding who is or isn't Irish-American. In the US, there seems to be a general identification of "Irish-American" with white, Catholic Americans with some Irish ancestry, however I don't know of any objective reason why this should be so. In effect, the designation "Irish-American" appears to be identified with certain waves of immigration from Ireland and not with others. Although contemporary Ireland is still divided between a predominantly protestant unionist culture and a predominantly Catholic "nationalist" culture, it does not follow that Irish-Americanism must be similarly divided. In Ireland you can be both protestant and Irish, but according to some contributors here you cannot be both protestant and Irish-American.
I think that attempting to set criteria for who qualifies as "Irish-American" is doomed to fail, and I would humbly suggest that we should consider scrapping the list altogether. --Ryano 12:42, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Can I interject here. As an Irish Protestant, I am fully Irish, and absolutely have no doubts about it. My ancestry is of a mixed nature, Irish, Scots and English. It just makes me want to vomit when I hear all this argument about religion! The so called Scots Irish is more or less an American invention of the 19th century to distinguish settled Irish from the famine victims. English rule had devastated Ireland in the years from 1800 to 1850 and the country was run by self-interested landlords. Many of that first wave of Scots-Irish were Irish and Anglo-Irish and the groups divided down into one third each. The Scots-Irish thing is a lot more myth than fact. 83.70.226.89 23:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Politics

I dropped "and diplomacy" from the catagory because of the large amount of Irish-Americans involved in politics. 64.109.253.204

[edit] African-Americans?

It is apparent that Lapsed Pacifist's intent here is to include a number of African-Americans in this list. Lapsed Pacifist, what is your reason or justification for doing so? Have they claimed Irish origins? Have others claimed it for them (aside from Ali)? Jayjg (talk) 8 July 2005 22:14 (UTC)

We need to have Lapsed Pacifist banned from editing this page. That is the only solution. 64.109.253.204

I would much prefer Lapsed Pacifist explaining his edits. Jayjg (talk) 8 July 2005 22:39 (UTC)

Lapsed Pacifist won't post here because what he is doing is wrong and he can't argue it. 64.109.253.204


My "intent" here is to add Irish-Americans I am aware of to the list. I have added many who are 100% ethnically Irish as well as those of mixed ancestry. I don't believe I require any special "reason or justification" for doing so. If it is necessary for all entries on the list to have stressed their origins, then sources should indeed be provided. Ali's Irish heritage was not "claimed" for him by others, he spoke of it with Irish journalists when he visited Ireland.

Lapsed Pacifist 8 July 2005 23:01 (UTC)

Because you're adding people whose Irish heritage is questionable at best, I think it's perfectly reasonable to require you to cite your sources. If you refuse to cite sources, your edits will continue to be reverted as nonsense vandalism until you comply with Wikipedia policy.—chris.lawson (talk) 8 July 2005 23:25 (UTC)

[edit] Jimi Hendrix

Just from a brief look around the net, it looks like Hendrix was mentioned to be a decendant of a part Irish grandmother (Hey! I read it on the Internet!!). I would think that would at least buy him admission to the page. I'm sure that there are many black Americans who can claim Irish ancestry. It would be nice to see some cites though. If they're legit, then the more, the merrier .Sublium 21:25, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Here's a cite for the Hendrix claim. Here's a quote from the following book: "Jimi Hendrix The Man, the Magic, the Truth" by Sharon Lawrence ISBN: 0060562994; Imprint: HarperEntertainment; [1]

[Nora Moore was Jimi Hendrix' grandmother]: "Nora Moore, the daughter of a full-blooded Cherokee mother and an Irish father." So by this account, Jimi's paternal grandmother was 1/2 Irish. Is that enough to get him in the club? Sublium

I would like to add some anicdotal evidence with regards Hendrix - my grandmother once inform me that a family in her village in Sligo were related to Jimi Hendrix's family, again totally anicdotal and I never passed much heed of it until I read this Vintagekits 23:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] James Augustine Healy

He does not need to have any extra personal information about him on this list. His biography is on his page. There are other bishops on this list and they do not have part extra information about them on here. The information Lapsed Pacifist is trying to add is also not associated with his Irish-American ancestry, so it makes really no sense at all being mentioned on this this. Lapsed Pacifist, it's mentioned in his page, no reason for it to be on here. 64.109.253.204

[edit] Proposal for inclusion...

I'd like to officially propose the following for inclusion on this page.

  1. The individuals page must make note of their Irish ancestry OR
  2. The individual must have documented evidence of being 1/8th Irish (ie one of their great grandparents being born in Ireland).

Anyone who does not meet 1 or 2 would be removed. Comments? Votes? I think this would help with some of the disputes we see here.

Wikibofh 9 July 2005 05:21 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly support those criteria. This is driving me frigging nuts. If someone can cite sources, I'll stop my whingeing, but as it stands, this is ridiculous.—chris.lawson (talk) 9 July 2005 05:28 (UTC)
Oh, and I would further add to #1 above that the individual's Wikipedia page must note their Irish heritage prior to, say, 9 July 2005 05:29 (UTC), so that certain individuals don't go adding it to main articles just to justify the inclusion here.—chris.lawson (talk) 9 July 2005 05:29 (UTC)
I agree that these rules for inclusion are reasonable and should be adhered to. Jayjg (talk) 04:18, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Lapsed Pacifist will still break these rules. The only way to stop him is to ban him from editing this page. I agree with them though. 64.109.253.204

Also, Lapsed Pacifist would be too afraid to edit the pages of any of the African-Americans he is adding to this list to say they are Irish-American. 64.109.253.204

Please focus on the page content, not on the editor. Jayjg (talk) 04:19, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I think that's too strict. For example, a person could be 100% ethnically Irish, but if all their ancestors came to the U.S. more than four generations ago, they would not be eligible for inclusion.

Lapsed Pacifist 9 July 2005 07:29 (UTC)

  • Actually, they could still be included as long as it was well documented on their article page. It's a OR, not an AND. Wikibofh 9 July 2005 14:28 (UTC)


Your criteria would shrink the list. Many of the people listed here have no reference to their ethnicity in their articles (some of which are very short), and it would be difficult to confirm the exact ancestry of some lesser-known figures.

Lapsed Pacifist 9 July 2005 14:47 (UTC)

  • You are correct. But since this list includes people that are disputed it would be a good thing in my mind because it is something that could be verified. In general I think it would be a good idea for the wikipedia to have some sort of requirement for inclusion for these lists...we're not the only ones having this discussion. For instance there is Talk:List_of_Chinese_Americans. I'm just not sure where to ask. Maybe village pump. Wikibofh 9 July 2005 14:57 (UTC)


I agree with criteria in principle, it would indeed be a good thing to know where we're coming from. My main problem with some current editors is that they seem to be jumping on any entries with obvious African ancestry, demanding sources, reverting etc., while no other entries, however mixed their ancestries, receive the same scrutiny or provoke such emotion. One example is Albert Finney, an English actor I have just removed from the list. I myself put him in a while ago, thinking he was Irish-American. No-one blinked. If criteria are agreed upon and introduced, all current editors should weed out all of their own entries that do not comply. A belated thank you for your apology on the Ali entry, by the way. It pointed up sharply differences between your approach and that of others.

Lapsed Pacifist 9 July 2005 15:18 (UTC)


  • The problem is the African-American (or obviously black) people listed get automatically questioned because perception (right or wrong). I've created this discussion at the village pump. I'd appreciate anyone who has an interest provide input there. I'll probably hit up the other ethnic pages as well. Wikibofh 9 July 2005 19:09 (UTC)

This only has to apply for those that are disputed. Some people are obviously Irish, some people are obviously not Irish. This should be a way to keep the people that aren't Irish off the list.

Lapsed, this is also not an African-American page, it is an Irish-American page, you want to treat it as if it's an African and Irish page because you probably have hatred for both groups, but you need to leave it at Irish and if something isn't associated to the Irish, leave it off.

Also Lapsed, if I revert something you do or add something, you should not revert it. I have contributed more to this list than anyone else and have not done anything to sabotage it. If you revert what I do it is just plain rude.

64.109.253.204

Please do not speculate about other editor's motivations; focus on the article. Jayjg (talk) 04:20, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Clawson has removed people that are Irish-Americans. Lapsed Pacifist has added white people to the list that do not have Irish ancestry. The only way to solve this is, ban Lapsed Pacifist, therefore stopping the non-Irish entries. Also, to stop following strict rules that would enable people to remove actual Irish-Americans. 64.109.253.204

If you can prove anyone I've removed thus far is indeed Irish, I welcome citations of reliable sources. The people I've removed have no such information associated with them, either on their main Wikipedia pages or in any of the external links on said pages. I shall continue removing these individuals until the two of you get your heads on straight.—chris.lawson (talk) 22:23, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
  • I would say that someone needs to be at least 1/4 Irish to call themselves Irish American but this would obviously reduce the list size. Anyone with less than 1/4 Irish ancestry I would describe as American with Irish ancestry so perhaps a better title would be Americans with Irish Ancestry or maybe this could be a separate list? Arnie587 02:09, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Clawson and Lapsed Pacifist

The page now has two people vandalizing it. Lapsed Pacifist is adding people that aren't Irish-Americans. Clawson is removing people that are Irish-Americans.

I'll tell you exactly what I told Lapsed Pacifist: if you can cite reliable sources stating that these people consider themselves to be Irish, I'm perfectly willing to leave them in place.—chris.lawson (talk) 23:11, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

1001 Everyone Shoukld Know About Irish-Ameircan History by Edward T. O'Donnell.

Clawson, I've added more to this list than anyone else, all my entrieis are legit. I am not here to cause trouble like Lapsed Pacifist, so please just leave my entries alone.


[edit] RfC

A requests for comment has been filed here concerning Lapsed Pacifist's editing of this article. If you have been involved in editing this article, you are encourged to comment. func(talk) 02:30, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I have been involved in editing this article more than anyone else and it isn't fair that Lapsed Pacifist can ruin all the work I have done. 64.109.253.204

So go over to the RfC, endorse the version I put together if you agree with it, and we'll have ourselves a case. Without a second endorsement, the RfC is going nowhere. —chris.lawson (talk) 04:16, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I endorsed it.

[edit] Models

Should a section be added for models? 64.109.253.204 06:32, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dividing Politics

Should the politics list be divided up by the profession? I was thinking of creating a seperate section for Mayors. Should the politics list be made into different lists of Congressmen, Senators, Mayors, Governors, Presidents, and Others? 64.109.253.204 06:35, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I personally don't think it's necessary, but I also think this list is getting awfully long and cumbersome. I think the Irish-American community might be better served by listing people who identify themselves as Irish, rather than simply listing everyone of minor note who has minor Irish ancestry. For example, Christina Aguilera is only remotely Irish, and I've never once seen her self-identify as Irish. She's far more Latino than Irish, and, well, she hasn't exactly embraced Latin culture either.—chris.lawson (talk) 11:45, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

She's half Irish. She is 50*% Irish, 50% Hispanic. 64.109.253.204 20:40, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

No. She is most certainly NOT half Irish. Her mother is Canadian "of remote Irish ancestry," to quote her Wikipedia page. If you have a source contradicting this, please cite it.—chris.lawson (talk) 23:17, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a good source for information. imdb.com 64.109.253.204 01:37, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

IMDb's page [2] says pretty much the exact same thing her Wikipedia page does. It does not say anything about her mother being from Ireland, which is what would be required for her to be, in your words, "50% Irish."—chris.lawson (talk) 01:57, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Having a parent from Ireland is not required to be 50% Irish. 64.109.253.204 03:37, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Then how, pray tell, does one become 50% Irish?—chris.lawson (talk) 04:16, 11 July 2005 (UTC) Note: I probably should have added "when your father is 100% NOT Irish" to the end of this question...—chris.lawson (talk) 01:54, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
  • By having two parents that are both 50% irish? And that doesn't even count the possibilities now with cloning! (I'm kidding  :) I had the same question, but decided that it didn't really matter, because at this point we don't seem to have anything resembling consensus on this. Wikibofh 06:33, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

If you have two grandparents from Ireland, than you would be 50% Irish. You could also have 4 Great Grandparents from Ireland to be 50% Irish. 64.109.253.204 06:44, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Except it's well-established that Christina's father is Ecuadorian. This means her mother's side is the only Irish blood, and her mother is definitely NOT pure Irish, so Christina can't possibly be 50%. Nice try, though.—chris.lawson (talk) 01:53, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

What about dividing politics, making a seperate list for mayors? 64.109.253.204 14:48, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The McCrory brothers

I know that this question might go unanswered, but Milton McCrory was a famous African American boxer who reigned as world Welterweight champion from 1983 until late in 1985, when dethroned by Donald Curry. His brother, Steve (+2001), was an Olymoic medalist who once unsuccessfully challenged Jeff Fenech for the world Bantamweight title. I was always curious, and this coming from a guy that knows A LOT about boxing (almost as much as I know about my favorite icon, Madonna's clothing!) I need to ask if anyone out there has concrete information that let us know whether the McCrory brothers were of some Irish descent or this was a slave trade name given to their ancestors.

Antonio Holy St. Patrick!!!!! Martin

[edit] Golbez's Stupidly Broad Requirements

According to Golbez having an Irish father and living most your life in the USA should not be enough to be on this list. He said the list has stupidly broad requirements. Golbez, please explain what you meant. 64.109.253.204 19:52, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

As I said on your talk page, you're basically adding anyone with a drop of Irish blood here. I'm a few generations removed from Ireland; could I qualify here if I were an actor? How many generations is the limit? One? Furthermore, his article doesn't mention it - that should well be a requirement for inclusion on any list.
Case in point: Muhammad Ali's Irish heritage is three generations removed. Are you adopting a one-drop rule here? What's the limit? --Golbez 20:13, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Anthony Quinn having an Irish father, making him 50% Irish should be well enough to be on the list. There are other people on the list that have mixed ancestry. I feel you only questioned Anthony Quinn because he is mixed with something other than European.

Don't complain to me about Muhammad Ali and the people with little Irish ancestry. That is Lapsed Pacifist's doing. 64.109.253.204 01:04, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I seem to recall a quote -- by you -- along the lines of "Ali wouldn't have been World Heavyweight Champion if it weren't for his Irish blood." Care to explain that, in light of what you just said?—chris.lawson (talk) 02:01, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

No. It's unrelated to this topic. 64.109.253.204 02:31, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Derek Jeter

OK, this has gone far enough.

I went to high school with Derek Jeter's younger sister. I know his family. NO ONE in his family self-identifies as Irish in even a remote way. Someone had better have a really damn good source for this one, and it had better trump personal first-hand knowledge of Derek and his family.—chris.lawson (talk) 01:51, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I've always heard Derek Jeter being Irish. I can use many sources for it. Do you have a source that proves he is not Irish? 64.109.253.204 02:32, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

64.109.253.204 05:44, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


That's a kind of progress, I guess: the One-drop rule as applied to Irishness. --Calton | Talk 14:01, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

None of that makes one whit of difference if his family does not self-identify as being Irish. And they don't.—chris.lawson (talk) 17:25, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


What if someone was 100% ethnically Irish but did not identify as such?

Lapsed Pacifist 17:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] African-Americans with Irish Ancestry list

Maybe the list would be better if another list was added specific for African-Americans with Irish ancestry. 64.109.253.204 15:09, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


Or a list of Irish-Americans with African ancestry?

Lapsed Pacifist 15:24, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Technically, doesn't everyone have an eentsy bit of African ancestry in them? --Golbez 19:28, July 12, 2005 (UTC)


I don't think we should get quite that technical. Unless you feel strongly about it...?

Lapsed Pacifist 19:33, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Who's getting technical here? We have Muhammad Ali on the list, he's three generations removed. What's the limit? Four? Eight? --Golbez 19:35, July 12, 2005 (UTC)


Don't let me get in your way.

Lapsed Pacifist 19:44, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Well anyone, I'm departing this page. Sorry I ever got involved :D --Golbez 20:53, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'll leave an opinion before I go. There are three criteria, any one of which could qualify someone for this list: 1) Immigrant; 2) Full-blooded Irish who identifies as such; and 3) A notable Irish ancestry for someome not otherwise considered Irish. #1 is obvious. #2 would include most people on the list. #3 would include Muhammad Ali, who should be included in a separate section of "Notable people who have Irish blood that might surprise you!" Or something along those lines. I don't think a normal chap named O'Donnell whose only link to Ireland was that his mother's grandfather came from County Fermanagh, and who has never really marketed himself as or identified himself as Irish, should really be included, but I'm not writing the list. --Golbez 21:25, July 12, 2005 (UTC)


I would add a rider to 3), namely that the person at one tme or another must have made reference to his or her Irish ancestry. Otherwise I could'nt agree more.

Lapsed Pacifist 21:32, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Sources

http://kingsley.vic.edu.au/glenobrien/historylecture8.htm http://www.ulster-scots.co.uk/docs/articles/historical/irishinthecsa.htm http://www.talfanzine.net/sectarianism.htm http://www.thesocialcontract.com/cgi-bin/showarticle.pl?articleID=923&terms= http://members.tripod.com/~Scott_Michaud/Smyth-history.html http://www.sfredheritage.on.ca/emburys.html http://www.yale.edu/glc/tangledroots/ http://www.rootsweb.com/~rwguide/irish/famous.html http://www.theirishshow.com/press_release.htm http://www.famousamericans.net/philipembury/ http://www.mixedfolks.com/books4.htm http://www.scstatehouse.net/sess116_2005_2006/bills/395.htm http://www.beer-bytch.com/irishhistry.htm http://www.thewildgeese.com/pages/jam3.html http://baltimoreabout.com/cs/famouspeople/a/aa021403a.htm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08132b.htm http://users.ev1.net/~gpmoran/CeltChron5.htm http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1998/07/29/ED83401.DTL http://www.dedanaan.com/untilled-fields-of-irish-history/a-celtic-chronology/18/ http://www.dedanaan.com/untilled-fields-of-irish-history/a-celtic-chronology/19/ http://www.dedanaan.com/untilled-fields-of-irish-history/a-celtic-chronology/20/ http://www.1st2inspire.co.uk/destinyinhishands.php http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1264/is_n10_v22/ai_11812537 http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?/page=gr&GRid=10814&pt=John%20Adams http://www.ulsterflash.iofm.net/irishcsa.htm http://www.ststp.com/Archives/Genealogy/Charts/AlexHaley/ http://members.fortunecity.com/mcbride_clan/history1.htm

[Jimi Hendrix Irish Ancestry]

Lapsed Pacifist 01:13, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

It would help if you attached the relevant links to the specific individuals in the article itself. Jayjg (talk) 05:29, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

It would indeed. What would help even more would be if users researched contentious entries before unthinkingly blanking them.

Lapsed Pacifist 01:22, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Those sources are no good. It reveals that the African-Americans you are trying to add have Irish ancestry, but nowhere near as much Irish ancestry as anyone else on the list. 64.109.253.204 18:31, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Let me get this straight, 64.
If you want to put Derek Jeter on here, it doesn't matter one whit that he doesn't consider himself Irish. But if anyone else wants to put, say, Ella Fitzgerald on here and cites a source for it, that's not OK, because she's not Irish "enough," whatever the hell that means.
I've had enough of the both of you. You can fight it out between yourselves. I'm through.—chris.lawson (talk) 00:38, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I had sources for Derek Jeter and it appears he has an Irish grandparent. That isn't too distant. 64.109.253.204 05:27, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lapsed Pacifist's Removals

  • Bryan Callaghan, San Antonio mayor
  • John Darraugh, Pittsburgh mayor
  • Jerramiah T. Healy, Jersey City mayor
  • Robert M. Moore, Cincinnati mayor

All these people were Irish-Americans and Lapsed Pacifist removed them from the list. 64.109.253.204 06:07, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unconfirmed Irish-American Mayors

  • George W. McNeil, Mayor of Akron
  • Charles A. Collins, Mayor of Akron
  • Frank Willey Clancy, Mayor of Albuquerque
  • Harry E. Kinney, Mayor of Albuquerque
  • James Delaney, Mayor of Anchorage
  • George M. Sullivan, Mayor of Anchorage
  • Michael McNamara, Mayor of Annapolis
  • John Kelly, Mayor of Annapolis
  • James Boyle, Mayor of Annapolis
  • Dennis M. Callahan, Mayor of Annapolis
  • John Dodd McCall, Mayor of Austin
  • Edward J. Dempsey, Mayor of Cincinnati
  • Donald D. Clancy, Mayor of Cincinnati
  • Patrick McCrory, Mayor of Charlotte
  • William Sinton Fitzgerald, Mayor of Cleveland
  • John C. Moore, Mayor of Denver
  • George T. Clark, Mayor of Denver
  • Thomas Cavanaugh, Mayor of Des Moines
  • John "Pat" Dorrian, Mayor of Des Moines
  • Joseph Sweeney, Mayor of El Paso
  • Charles E. Kelly, Mayor of El Paso
  • Ignatius A. Sullivan, Mayor of Hartford
  • Frank A. Hagarty, Mayor of Hartford
  • Dennis P. O'Connor, Mayor of Hartford
  • Joseph V. Cronin, Mayor of Hartford
  • Thomas L. Sullivan, Mayor of Indianapolis
  • Reginald H. Sullivan, Mayor of Indianapolis
  • Albert G. Feeney, Mayor of Indianapolis
  • George M. Nolan, Mayor of Jacksonville
  • John V. Kenny, Mayor of Jersey City
  • John G. Moriarty, Mayor of Jersey City
  • John F. Maloney, Mayor of Juneau
  • Timothy O'Day, Mayor of Juneau
  • Dennis Egan, Mayor of Juneau
  • Charles Ireland, Mayor of Las Vegas
  • Thomas W. Riley, Mayor of Louisville
  • Joseph T. O'Neal, Mayor of Louisville
  • Frank L. Burke, Mayor of Louisville
  • James H. Malone, Mayor of Memphis
  • Joseph Patrick Boyle, Mayor of Memphis
  • John B. Reilly, Mayor of Miami
  • Stephen P. Clark, Mayor of Miami
  • Edward O'Neill, Mayor of Milwaukee
  • William Marshall McCarthy, Mayor of Nashville
  • Vincent J. Murphy, Mayor of Newark
  • Hugh Kennedy, Mayor of New Orleans
  • John R. Conway, Mayor of New Orleans
  • Eugene "Gene" A. Leahy, Mayor of Omaha
  • James D. Monihon, Mayor of Phoenix
  • Frank G. Murphy, Mayor of Phoenix
  • William C. McCarthy, Mayor of Pittsburgh
  • William Addison Magee, Mayor of Pittsburgh
  • Hugh O'Bryant, Mayor of Portland
  • James O'Neill, Mayor of Portland
  • Bud Clark, Mayor of Portland
  • Thomas Arthur Doyle, Mayor of Providence
  • George Leonard Clarke, Mayor of Providence
  • Patrick McCarthy, Mayor of Providence
  • James E. Dunne, Mayor of Providence
  • John Francis Collins, Mayor of Providence
  • Joseph A. Doorley, Mayor of Providence
  • M.J. Burke, Mayor of Sacramento
  • James B. McKinney, Mayor of Sacramento
  • Robert Kennedy, Mayor of St. Paul
  • Charles P. McCarty, Mayor of St. Paul
  • Alfred Callaghan, Mayor of San Antonio
  • Charles F. O'Neall, Mayor of San Diego
  • Harry C. Clark, Mayor of San Diego
  • Frank Curran, Mayor of San Diego
  • John Collins, Mayor of Seattle
  • Robert Moran, Mayor of Seattle
  • Dennis McCarthy, Mayor of Syracuse
  • Francis Edward Carroll, Mayor of Syracuse
  • Thomas Ryan, Mayor of Syracuse
  • James Kennedy McGuire, Mayor of Syracuse
  • Thomas Edward Kennedy, Mayor of Syracuse
  • Thomas Joseph Corcoran, Mayor of Syracuse
  • William Francis Walsh, Mayor of Syracuse
  • Matthew John Driscoll, Mayor of Syracuse
  • John Q. Carey, Mayor of Toledo
  • John McHugh, Mayor of Toledo
  • Olney F. Flynn, Mayor of Tulsa

I think most of them are problaby Irish, but I am going to check them out before I add them to the list. If anyone here has any knowledge on any of them, that would help. 64.109.253.204 06:19, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Jimmy Hahn, the penultimate mayor of Los Angeles, is Irish-American. I don't know if he qualifies for your list because, as of July 1, 2005, as he's no longer mayor. Dick Riordan, the mayor before Hahn, is also Irish-American. David Hoag 15:19, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proof of Lapsed Pacifist's Malicious Vandalism

I created a list of Irish-American mayors, Irish-American Mayors, and right after I created it, Lapsed Pacifist started adding non-sense to it. Putting people with no Irish ancestry on it. The list also is not a list of people with any Irish ancestry, but a list of actual Irish-American mayors. 64.109.253.204 08:29, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Walt Disney Irish-American?

Can anybody provide reliable evidence showing that mr Disney had Irish blood?

His father was Irish-Canadian, his mother was German-American. 64.109.253.204 20:21, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Irish-born Irish-Americans

Are Irish-born Irish-Americans not allowed on this list? I added several and Lapsed Pacifist reverted all my edits. 64.109.253.204 18:13, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What the ----?

Why are you calling my reverts vandalism? I check this talk page and I don't see anything that proves Billie Holliday was Irish!! --Hottentot

Excuse your French. I wasn't exactly happy with LP's linkdump either, but it's the San Francisco Gate article.—chris.lawson (talk) 02:54, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Ok, whatever. --Hottentot

Having like 1% Irish ancestry does not make a person an Irish-American. Billie Holiday can be on a list of people with Irish ancestry, but not a list of Irish-Americans. 64.109.253.204 03:40, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with 64.109.253.204. This list is ------ anyway. --Hottentot

Why is the list ------ anyway? If the list didn't have these African-Americans who are not Irish-Americans, the list wouldn't be ------. 64.109.253.204 20:48, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Move this List

This list should be moved to a new page List of Americans with Irish Ancestry. That way Lapsed Pacifist and his types can add all the non-Irish-Americans they want and this list can be for serious Irish-Americans. 64.109.253.204 19:51, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sour Over Compromise

I moved non-Irish-Americans to a section called "Irish Ancestry". The people I moved there really do not belong on the list at all, I think people that want them on the list should take this compromise of them being in a special section.

The people who want them on the list are not happy though and are vandalizing the list by adding people who are 100%, 50%, and 25% Irish to the list of minor Irish ancestry. 64.109.253.204 06:23, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, Ben and casey Affleck are 50% Irish, yet they are on the "Irish Ancestry" selection. I'll put them back

As the original creator of this page, I feel that this is a ridiculous move. The whole point of this article was to create a list of Americans with Irish ancestry, whether born in America or Ireland. Whilst the notion of Irish ancestry may be rather nebulous (particulary with regards to the defining capicity), I do not feel that this qualifies having a seperate list for "Irish ancestry", which is entirely redunant, since the whole notion of being Irish-American is to be of Irish descent. I therefore feel that the article should be reverted to its original format as soon as possible. Johnhpaulin

How is it that this article still disputed? It seems that everyone on the page is Irish-American. There seems to be a whole lot of stink over very little real "controversy". This mark seriously needs to be removed. Nobody will ever agree 100% on a list of famous Irish-Americans, but those people who have views well outside the norm will simply need to keep their own list and host it, since it's the only way they will ever be happy. 71.129.111.0 04:56, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jim Morrison

Can anyone find me any evidence to support this? I always thought that he was Scottish, rather than Irish (unsigned edit by Johnpaulin)

I'm pretty sure the anon editor working so hard on this page will now claim to have a source (conveniently, a book that nobody can find at their local library) that says Jim Morrison is not only Irish-American, but full-blooded, 100% Irish thanks to his Irish-born parents.
In other words, no, there doesn't seem to be any evidence. There doesn't seem to be any evidence for about half the other people on this list, either. That's part of why this whole mess got started in the first place. Billie Holliday, Martin Luther King Jr., etc. are not known to have made a big deal of -- or even claimed -- their Irish ancestry, and I do mean "ancestry". Likewise with someone like Christina Aguilera: her mother -- and only her mother -- is "of distant Irish ancestry." She does not self-identify as Irish.
There is a proposal a few sections up on this page that these "Lists of Ethnic-Americans" have some basic criteria for inclusion. General consensus seems to be that one or more of the following need to apply:
  • Person self-identifies as ethnicity
  • Person has at least one parent, grandparent, or great-grandparent who was born in Ireland
If these criteria are not met, the person doesn't belong on this list, as the Irish ancestry is considered too minor to be relevant. I don't see Christina Aguilera on a List of Canadian-Americans or Ecuadorian-Americans, for example, and both of these would make far more sense than her inclusion here, as her mother is Canadian whilst her father is Ecuadorian.—chris.lawson (talk) 14:40, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Jim Morrison was Lapsed Pacifist's add, not mine. 64.109.253.204 07:51, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Paul Newman

It's fairly well known that Paul Newman's mother is Irish-American, stop reverting my edits.

I am honestly sorry - it is fairly well known - and is on a lot of websites. But it is incorrect.

Someone submitted it to the IMDB and it got spread around the net. She isn't Irish at all.

She was born in Hungary. Her name is Theresa Fetsko - later apparently changed to Fetzer. Look up a few book bios of Newman and you will find that information.

I am also going to give you a link to geneology.com - which has a Newman family tree. Not a drop of Irish blood, unfortunately. http://www.genealogy.com/famousfolks/paul-newman/index.htm#toc

"Second Generation 2. Arthur S.2 Newman (Simon3) was born in Ohio ca 1894.(1) Arthur died bef 14 May 1950 in prob Shaker Heights, Cuyahoga, Ohio, at approximately 55 years of age.(2)

He married Theresa Fetsko ca 1915.(3) Theresa was born in Hungary 25 Jul 1896.(4) Theresa was the daughter of Stephen Fetsko and Mary Polenak. Theresa died 13 Aug 1982 in Riverside County, California, at 86 years of age.(5)

Arthur S. Newman and Theresa Fetsko had the following children:

3 i. Arthur S.1 Newman Jr. was born in Ohio ca 1924.(6) 

+ 1 ii. Paul Leonard Newman was born 26 Jan 1925. "

-24.141.149.226

Hungaria is a city in Ireland. 69.216.240.155 00:02, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

I suppose now you're going to claim "Fetsko" and "Polenak" are Irish names, too?—chris.lawson (talk) 02:56, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I suppose now you are going to claim to know Paul Newman and know for a fact he isn't Hungarian and no one in his family identifies as being Hungarian. 69.216.240.155 03:25, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Not sure how to interpret the above exchange of comments, but Hungaria is certainly not a city in Ireland. I'm going to be charitable and assume 69.216.240.155 was joking. --Ryano 11:49, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


[edit] "Actors"

I cleaned up this list, deleting actors who are not American (working on an American film does not make you American), and deleting the additional information. I feel that it rather absurd that we can learn that Mary Tyler Moore is "most, but not fully Irish", but the nature or degree of Irish ancestry for say, Richard Nixon or Andrew Jackson. Unless the nature/degree of Irish ancestry for people in every category of the list is specified, I feel that it should not be included only for actors. If people want to research into the ancestry of these figures, they can do it by themselves, on IMDB (which, I suspect, is where most of the information used for these come from).

The reason most of that is in there is because there is one anonymous editor who insists that everyone in the United States is Irish, and feels the need to make up justification for such claims. Please, feel free to clean it up. I've long since lost the motivation to fight it.—chris.lawson (talk) 20:17, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Are you sure that's a good idea? Maybe we should have the additional info for all people. The list makes it seem like every person listed is more or less 100% Irish-American, and that's not true for a large number of people in the actors category (Downey Jr., Phoenixes, Tyrone Power who are all 1/4 or even less Irish. Even Harrison Ford is just 1/4 Irish - check his Wiki profile). I think we should either take out all people who are less than half Irish ethnically or put those qualifications in so readers don't assume these people are "just Irish". 24.36.160.142 06:47, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Articles for Deletion debate

This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Splashtalk 18:03, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Would anyone object?

If we made the "part Irish" into a special section at the bottom, and it would include people of 1/4 or less Irish descent. And then everyone who is "all Irish" or has an Irish parent would be under whichever proper category? Vulturell 03:39, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and I'm going to start putting in citations, to make this list more accurate and hopefully get that dreaded neutrality tag off. In the meantime, I'll put everyone who I couldn't find a citation for here until someone finds a good source.

Vulturell 03:41, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Others

The list for others was much longer, what happened to everything that was listed there? 70.228.174.42 18:25, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Matt Bonner + Matt Carroll

Does anyone have a source that they are of significant Irish descent? I really couldn't find anything good, so I'll remove them until then. MadJack 07:39, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] People with distant ancestry

I think these people should just be merged back into the list as I don't see any evidence that their ancestry is any lesser than the people in the main list. Arniep 18:05, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I think there is no point at all in listing people who have an Irish great-grandparent or less. Those should just be taken out completely (I mean, who doesn't have an Irish great-grandparent these days?) One full grandparent is debateable, but for now those should be restored into the list. JackO'Lantern 20:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What a difference a name makes (and why this list is a joke)

This list is a complete joke, largely (but not exclusively by any means) thanks to Lapsed Pacifist who regularly writes on Irish matters (I quote "If you know of another country where people called Murphy come from, I'd really love to know about it [so Eddie Murphy must be Irish]") and would add William Brewster, Mickey Mouse, Kunta Kinte and Jesus of Nazareth to this list of they thought they could get away with it.

Apparently, the qualifications required for inclusion in this list are:

  • has what is believed to be an Irish surname
  • is or may be Catholic
  • has green eyes or red hair - or even better, both
  • has drunk Guinness and pretended to like it
  • has been spotted wearing green on or around 17 March
  • is actually British but is too popular to dislike or disregard
  • once played an Irish or Irish-American character in film, a play, or on television
  • is famous, popular and successful in their chosen field
  • cannot be associated with any other ethnic group, so must be Irish - because everyone is, aren't they!?!
oh yeah, and:
  • has one or more Irish parents or grandparents (not essential)
  • has actually claimed Irish ancestry (irrelevant)

As for Eddie Murphy (I'm mostly talking to you again Lapsed Pacifist), let me tell you a little story. I was born in West Sussex, England, UK. So were both my parents. Three of my grandparents were also born in West Sussex, another in Austria. You can trace my line back to the Domesday Book. So, would you say that I am English (with a hint of Austrian)? Of course not: I simply must be Irish because my surname is Kinsella. But why do I have a good, fine Oirish surname, given my lineage? Simple: because my mother divorced my father when I was one year old and married another man with said surname, and that man adopted me, so legally and in practice I took his surname. Hey presto! My ethnic origin suddenly transformed.....my children will be Kinsellas, and the name will run through my heirs for generations to come, and unreconstructed and uneducated idiots will decide our ethnic and cultural identity unilaterally.

As any idiot (except Lapsed Pacifist and some others who "contribute" to this resource) can clearly see, a surname actually means nothing. They come with marriage, remarriage, adoption, and voluntary identity change, as well as birth. Immigrants choose - and have chosen - certain names in order to adopt an identity and/or fit in to a new culture (such as Senator John Kerry's paternal ancestors, German Jews who emmigrated to the US, converted to Catholocism and adopted an Irish surname at Ellis Island, leading Kerry - and others - to claim for a long time without any real evidence that he was an Irish-American). Compare the pitifully and woefully short List of English Americans (in reality the largest ethnic group in America if the same citeria were applied to all ethnic groups), where attempts have been made to place a generational limit on entries there (where is the consistency, Wikipedians?!). Unfortunately, some contributors have also been adding sentences after names which say that although these people are known as English-American, they're Irish really!! Top o' the morrnen' toe ya!

And by the way. A lot of the claims made after each name are not repeated in the individual article for that person - and have a look at Judy Garland, apparently "identified with the culture" (?!). If it isn't cited and included in the "parent" article, it does not belong here, period. So stop adding them, Lapsed Pacifist and others, or do some proper research and amend and cite the person entry. I encourage all users to check the parent articles and delete claims in this list not substantiated or qualified there. 86.17.210.229 11:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deliberate misinformation on this list: proved

I have done a test to check information included in this list against the information in the standalone entry for the relevant individuals. There are dozens of examples where one or more parent is said to be 'Irish' - i.e. it gives the impression that a mother and/or father was actually born in Ireland, therefore the child's Irish-American credentials are full and indisputable. However, follow the link to the full articles and you find that either there is nothing of their heritage at all, or that the mother and/or father are themselves classified as Irish-American (leading to further questions - how do you know, where is the proof for them, how is this qualified/proved, is it true at all?). So, proof that entries on this list are being 'qualified' with unreliable or misleading details. This list should be deleted, it is ridiculous and is mostly fabrication or assumption. 62.25.106.209 13:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

  • This and the entry immediately before are about the most sensible statements I have read on this subject. If only other users left their politics at the door but brought their brains with them, this list (and associated "Irish-American" articles) might actually have some semblance of logic, accuracy and integrity. 86.7.208.240 23:27, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] People with distant Irish ancestry

Anyone in one of the main sections who was not born in Ireland or to one or more Irish parents must be moved into the section "People with distant Irish ancestry" (i.e. 95% of the list). At the moment many names are repeated in both the profession and distant ancestry lists, which is ridiculous. Even better: make a new "distant ancestry" list.

  • Hilarious: Gary Busey, a man born to an Irishman, is only listed as having "distant Irish ancestry"!!!
    • By "Irish parent" do you mean a parent born in Ireland, or say, an American parent of 100% Irish ancestry? I think that one would be acceptable. Anyway, following your lead, I'm going to work a little on improving this list, starting with the actors section. Basically I'll include anyone with a "full" Irish parent and the rest can go to the distant section, which we might delete at some point anyway, since it's kind of pointless. JackO'Lantern 23:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Irish Catholic" as evidence of ancestry

You can of course be Irish Catholic, but one is not raised Irish Catholic (and one cannot use the latter statement as proof of ancestry - for a start it implies a different type of Catholicism.) "Irish Catholic" describes someone who is Irish or of Irish descent who also practices Catholicism. It's like saying one is raised white or black - one is white or black, it is who you are, not a lifestyle choice or how one is brought up. A Norwegian couple cannot turn round and say "We're going to raise our child as Irish Catholic". You are raised Catholic, and may also be Irish, equalling Irish Catholic.

    • I do agree that names (alone) cannot define a person's heritage and beleive that if a person actually declares themselves to be an Irish American and that declartion can be documented through research that is sufficient to be included in this list but if their "Irishness or Oirishness" cannot be easly identified through documents published e.g biographies, reviews, interviews etc they should not be included as their Irishness is unsubstantiated. Irish American is more about a state of mind or being rather than - do they have an Irish Granny? I do not beleive that the main articles associated with entries needs to make reference to ethnic origins unless their Irishness or other heritage is relevant to their career or fame. For instance Maureen O'Hara's Irishness is very much part of her persona/image. Therefore it is appropriate for the article, but Judy Garland's ancestry, although very interesting because of the (doucmentable detail) is not required for the main article but she should be on this list and I do beleive that some ancestry can be very interesting and if well written and informative as part of a wider historical slant on the individual it could be included in an article but is still not necessary. Also articles are very much based on individual editors' agendas and interests and can be continually added to or deleted at whim or desire to annoy another editor. The point of the article and Wikipedia in general is to give the important facts and allow researchers to look at other links and categories for additional information that is of particular interest to them. For instance whomever edited this list left Greer Garson on the list making reference to her being Irish Born - this is a well known myth and further research would prove this to be incorrect - she was not Irish born she was English born with a remote connnection to County Down - yet they chose to remove Maureen O'Hara? The list is the worst mess I've ever seen it and of no value.
Maureen O'Hara was removed because I couldn't find proof of her being an American citizen. It's really that simple. Although definitely Irish - she also has to be an American. As for whoever said one Irish (American) grandparent was enough for inclusion, please see the proposal discussion link below. JackO'Lantern 22:39, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

REPLY - there is a website called Maureen O'Hara Magazine www.moharamagazine.com - that has an article about her Naturalisation as an American Citizen - it is also included in her auto Biography "Tis Herself". I don't mean to be overly critical but but I am sure you agree that some detail is not available on the net and many people who will edit this list will base their edits on their own preferance or opinion and not research further than the first site they can find. I am a professional geneologist and a history lecturer by trade and Wikipedia has been very useful to me and this list in particular was a comprehensive list of Americans with Irish origins - but I do agree that if it is not "documentable" they do not belong but having said that if a person declares themself to be Irish American and they are accepted within that community - they belong on the list as it is more of a mind-set than a reality, especially in the current global cliamte where ethnic idnetity is becoming less relevant.

I reviewd the proposed discussion link relating to criteria and do not disagree except that I do beleive that the criteria needs to be relevant to the person and this is usually dictated by the environment in which they were raised and feel most comfortable e.g they idnetify with it and this identification is documented in some public form. Do you intend to put people back on the list when you decide that the evidence is sufficient? I do not wish to gt into a situation where for instance I put O'Hara and Garland back in and then you remove them again I would rather come to agreement through evidence but according to the criteria proposed that states 3. There is some ethnic ancestry AND proof exists that the person identified with that group above others or singled it out, such as Robert DeNiro for Italian Americans. Both ladies belong back on the list.

Oh, goodness, there's no disagreement from me here. All I said was that I personally couldn't find proof of O'Hara's citizenship - I didn't say it wasn't out there. Since you've found a source that she became an American, I will add her myself. I'm glad you agree with the proposal. If you can prove that someone declared themselves to be an Irish American or grew up in an Irish American community (while having less than a full Irish parent, I mean), etc. then it fits that DeNiro clause that you brought up and they should certainly be mentioned here - i.e. Judy Garland I guess (but not as far as I can tell Frankie Muniz). JackO'Lantern 03:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I put in O'Hara. I couldn't access the Irish-America magazine. Can you give me a juicy quote from it so I can put Garland up with it? JackO'Lantern 03:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

REPLY - if you go to Judy Garland the Live Performances web-site http://rainbowz.deltacomm.com/ and click on the Concerts time line for the year 1951 you will see there are 3 articles one from a Dublin Newspaper that states she has an Irish Grandmother (clearly from her own perspective) the second is an Edinburgh Review called "Garlands for Edinburgh" in this review it quotes her as saying "I am Irish and Scots" and also the reviewer makes reference to her "Scottish Complexion that she states is a "Gift from her Irish Grandmother" Remember now she is in Scotland - there is no need to mention Irish yet she clearly chose to mention Irish along with Scots correcting the interviewer by saying it is an "Irish" complexion. Whereas in Ireland she did not mention Scots or Scotland - this indicates what identity she was most comfortable with. There is also a review from Birmingham England about an Irish Party that she attended, that again demonstrates her predisposition to "Irishness". This past Autumn her daughter Lorna Luft was in Ireland (she is a frequent visitor) and she referred to her mother's "Irish temper". Liza Minnelli was a guest a the very first Irish American reception held by the then Mayor of New York City. - In the book The Golden Years her Irish ancestry is discussed and detailed quite extensively, as it is in the Gerold Frank biogrphy Judy which is the only biography that had the full coopertion of her family. - The reality of the situation is that her maternal Grandmother Eva Fitzpatrick (who was 100% Irish) lived with garland until she died at a very old age in the late 1940s this old lady was the matriarch of the very large family and all her numerous Milne-Fitzpatrick cousins referred to themselves as Irish becuase that was the major influence in their lives. In John Frick's recent book Judy in Art and Anecdote he mentions her being "confrotable with her Irishness" and that because of this she added special numbers to particualrt concerts. Sid Luft her husband referred to her as a "Black Irish Witch". There is a wealth of evidence available about her heritage indicating her identification with it albeit in biographys and otehr print not on teh net. Recently there was a television documentary in the UK detailing the Irish Famine and one of the segments discussed descendents of Irish Famine immigrants who became famous and/or successful and Garland was among them in the company of Bing Crosby and Gene Kelly - if you require more detail or advice please let me know I will look through the Irish America article and other sources for an appropriate quote for you to use. I do have a problem with the ease by which entries can be removed and added depending on the whim or interest of an individual and was particularly annoyed at these 2 individuals being removed because in my work their contribution and identification by themselves and the public with Irish American culture has always been obvious and at a higher degree than many individuals who remain on the list without being challenged.

Proposed Guideline for inclusion on this list - It is an interesting that the irish Government recognises anyone with an Irish born Parent, an Irish born Grandparent or an Irish born Great Grandparent as eligible for Irish Citizenship and Irish Passport through documented descent. Therefore if the Irish Government is willing to consider anyone that meets this descent criteria as "Irish" It may be appropriate to apply that same guideline to this list. I agree with a previous poster that sentences and stories after the entries is too much and confusing although a very brief link or comment could be appropriate but this should be limited. Consistency is important and critera should be clear - to avoid entries or removals on whim, opinion or because someone thinks that someone is not "Irish" enough - For instance Liza Minnelli has been removed from the "Distant" section while her sister has remained - they both belong there because the connection to Ireland is clear.

Well, the problem with strictly following guidelines like that, is that you can't, in that situation, list a person who is 100% Irish ethnically unless you know for sure that they had a great-grandparent born in Ireland. In general, governments tend to do things like that - let in people with a great-grandparent or grandparent - like Israel's Law of Return - so we should either make a new general proposal like that, or not do that at all. As for Lorna Luft, I should take her out for now, I don't think she identified as Irish. Mad Jack O'Lantern 17:38, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Reply - Well I'm not sure what is right - part of me thinks if it is good enough for a Government to recognise an individual through descent back to a great grandparent then that should be the standard practice for this list and other similar ones that are based on ethnicity. It would be more accurate in that the descent issue is easier to substantiate through research than an individual's personal identification e.g. genealogy, family history and background is far more likely to be detailed in biographies where as an individual’s identification is harder to pin down as it can appear in a variety of sources usually not well publicised or promoted and be more localised that are far more difficult to find; such as newspaper articles, interviews, reviews etc. that are not on the net or readily available and lets face it nowadays most people use the net to source. I do believe also that some contribution to Irish American culture or American culture in general should be considered. Believe me I think what you are doing is a tremendous undertaking and you are very brave to do it simply because your hard work can be (ultimately) trashed by someone who has a different opinion or is less dedicated to verification and simply because of their own limited view decides that someone doesn't belong on the list. I hate to keep harping on the one family but Garland's family is a perfect example of my point. She certainly belongs in the main category under actors because during her heyday she contributed to Irish American Culture through Irish themed songs that were on every jukebox in every Irish Pub through the 1970s, she was a regular guest on fellow Irishman Bing Crosby's radio show during the 1950s singing many Irish songs and often referred to her self as Irish and to her Irish family, incidentally here is a good quote from the article that appeared in Irish America Magazine "She never lost her Celtic soul". However her daughters belong in the Distant section because that is appropriate for them in that they do have substatiated "Distant" Irish heritage and although may not promote it daily have referred to it on occasion and probably more than some entries on the main list. By example; how does one know Lorna Luft does not identity with being Irish? I live in Ireland and she has appeared in concert and on Television in Ireland many times over the years, she starred in the Dublin production of Follies, she lived here for a period and often visits, she has made reference to "the family's Irish charm", and other quotes about about her mother's Irish traits in her book Me and My Shadows, and in interviews in the USA, Ireland and the UK, she has appeared at Irish charity performances in New York with Irish entertainers and a famous photograph of her by Scuvello that appeared on the cover of Interview Magazine pictured her in a green sequined outfit holding a huge shamrock! She is first and foremost American but certainly has demonstrated an appreciation for her Irish heritage as well as that of her father who was of Russian/German Jewish decent but she is Episcopal like her mother and sister but yet is listed in a wikipedia list as a "Jewish Female singer" should I delete her from that list? I don't think so the wider issue is that each list should require the editor to give a reason why the individual they are proposing should be on the list. Liza Minnelli is as much Irish as she is Italian in that she had only 1 Italian Grandparent and 1 Irish Grandparent and while she wasn't raised in either a "Italian or Irish " family environment she is aware of her heritage. She was quoted in an early London Times interview after Cabaret stating "I'm Italian, Irish and French" obviously choosing to omit Scottish as her "French" Grandmother was also half Scottish. Since then she has appeared at many Italian and Irish American functions and commented on both nationalities but in reality prefers her French ancestry as that was the heritage that her father identified with. I ahve found that people generally identify more with their mother's nationality due to the family influence is usually stronger from teh mother's extended family. I think inclusion in the distant part of the list and perhaps some historic figures should solely be based on documental direct heritage. There is an article that appeared in the Irish Echo newspaper around 1991 where Liza talks about her determination and ability to laugh at herself to her Irish roots - but as I say these comments are very much "localised" and not widely available unless someone does extensive research. I have many articles, letters and other documents not available on the net that realate to many people's Irish connections and use them in my work but for the most part this material is hard to find unless the individuals have a lead or know where to look and it is rarely on the net. There is also the scientific reality that is Mitochondrial DNA that is passed from generation to generation unchanged from the female line - what this means is that an individual in America who had an Irish distant Great Grandmother would have the same mitochondrial DNA as that distant (female) relation, this has tremendous implications for health research and forensic identification. I am sorry to go on so much but as you can tell this is a subject that interests me very much. There is also something that we must take into consideration when talking about Irish American Culture that is fairly unique in how "loyal" individuals can be to it even if the connection goes back many generations and the current family name is not remotely Irish - this again is a fairly unique phenomenon more common among those with Irish roots than others. Research into this has stated that America, Canada and Australia all founded on waves of immigration offered a new life to these "tired and poor huddled masses yearning to be free" but in the case of the Irish leaving Ireland was not a choice but a necessity to survive and many regretted having to leave and many were angry over having to leave and I dare say many were glad to leave but ultimately this forced immigration did not sever the ties with home and generations of the same families continued to cross the ocean right up until recent times and this has kept the link open and to a degree fresh. Also the Famine Irish of the 1840s after only 2 generations in America became very influential and successful in the military, church, politics and show-business, combined with the world-wide popularity of St Patrick's Day celebrations particularly in America and the stereotypical images of the Irish that were for the most part flattering although some not so e.g. drinkers and fighters but overall this group of people managed to maintain a strong connection with their "motherland" whilst still remaining fiercely patriotic Americans. Ireland did not interfere with American identity that was to a degree formulated by Irish immigrants. Finally on entries like Arthur Shields, Barry Fitzgerald, Geraldine Fitzgerald and Maureen O'Sullivan it is highly likely that they became Naturalised American Citizens as did Maureen O'Hara for several reasons the least being that they made their living there, and that it was a very patriotic timein Hollywood and America and they were unable to go back to Ireland due to WWII - sorry to be so long winded and I am happy to asssit as I can.

Well, if you want to you can put your input into the discussion that's going on at the link below and receive wider feedback that way. Someone in the discussion below brought up changing all these articles for example, to "Americans of Irish descent", as opposed to "Irish Americans" because that's more of a clear label. Maybe that's a good idea? That way the only real standard would be being able to prove that someone has Irish/Scottish/French/Jewish/Italian/etc. ancestry. Maybe a proposal should be drafted to change the names of the pages, and thus make it a lot easier to do these lists. Mad Jack O'Lantern 01:13, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

COMMENTARY BESIDE ENTRIES I beleive that the commentary beside entries needs to be controlled for instance the large essay on "Lara Flynn-Boyle" is far too long and not warranted or appropriate - whilst she may be Irish American and included in this list her accomplishments are not worthy (in my opinion) of such a lengthy commentary - which I guess is the fundamental problem here - it is all down to one's opinion - but if the list is to be of any use or value the entries and comments must be regularised through some standard format. users can research their own interest through the initial represntation on the list. I do not beleive that any commentary other than very brief link to a more detailed site or a brief reference to Irishness such as maternal, paternal naming the specific connection. I also think the Distant section has been vandalised - it is the only part of the list that should be straight forward based on clear documentable Irish Ancestry and no other specification. I have not been able to turn up a sherd of evidence that Ella Fitzgerald ever mentioned teh word Irish let alone that she was "Irish" yet she remains and otehr sthat have clear discent are removed - why? 86.12.253.32

I think we should move this page to "List of Americans of Irish descent" and make this all easier (see my proposal at the bottom of this page). Some of these quotes by the person are indeed too long, and as soon as the page has a new title, I'll work on re-adding people and shortening others' quotes. I include Lara Flynn Boyle's quote because she basically spent two paragraphs talking about being Irish! But I'll cut it down anyway. Mad Jack O'Lantern 18:05, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

JackO - I agree my experience with "irish American" culture is that because of reasons stated previously many people with a remote irish connection do consider themselves Irish American simply because they know more about that connection than any others they may have, and that connection does not "threaten" their American identity - BUT I also agree that there should be standards for entries and those that cannot be substatiated/evidenced should be removed. I also agree that inclusion on the list would be more accurate for researchers (like myself) if it was required that evidence of individuals with Irish ancestry acknowledged their irish roots or their identification was linked in someway - It is up to the individual to do the wider research that ultimately will reveal exactly how "Irish" the subject was and more important how "Irish" they felt. I think I would be safe in saying that I doubt that Mohammad Ali felt very "Irish" or that his great contribution to Sport and Boxing in particualr had any impact on the Irish American community but this is where the difficulty lies in that evidence of "feelings" is not readily available for historic/older individuals - therefore you can easily find 2 paragraphs on the net about say Lara Flynn Boyle (please accept that I am not being critical) becasue she is current or modern - yet Legendary people such as Garland, O'Hara, Tyrone Power and some others who have clear identifiable Irish conections that are secondary to how they contributed to the development of Irish or "Oirus" American culture as it may be through there work and public image were removed. I know that you have put 2 of them back but the reality is that historic figures as they are in film and Americana in general should be secure as there are a handful of entries that will standout as models of Irish American culture (as it was) for many generations to come and both Garland and O'Hara are sterotypical of this image as the "quintessinal" colleens if you will. Entries such as Ali are important in other ways to researchers as they evidence how the immigrant Irish evolved in their new country. There is also interesting work currently being done to look at how Blacks with Irish ancestry were not accepted particularly during the last and erly part of this century which is why so little information about this exists in that if peopel such as Ali, or Ella Fitzgerald knew about their Irish connections they wouldn't have spoke much about them as it had no real impact on who they were becuse ultimately they would not have been raised in an "Irish" environment perhpas similar to how Robert DeNiro feels in that you identify with teh culture you are most exposed to. One project I was involved in was to document how the Irish flourished everywhere except in Ireland and this and other simialr lists have been invaluable to that research. 86.12.253.32 20:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

So are you saying changing the title to "List of Americans of Irish descent" would be a good idea or not? I've come to realize over the past few days that it is indeed hard to make these ethnicity-American lists, and no one is ever quite sure what the standards should be or how they should be organized. Maybe it's for the best to change the title that way and allow for anyone with confirmed Irish ancestry to be listed. The little paragraphs by each person would demonstrate "how Irish" they are. And that's a good point about Boyle Vs. older celebrities, I usually find that's the case - less info avaiable on the older ones. Mad Jack O'Lantern 23:40, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes I think a list based on pure DOCUMENTABLE ancestry maybe a more efficient way of going about this BUT it runs the risk of idiots just adding and removing entries willy-nilly for their own agendas - people should not be on this list just because they are Irish American but rather because they have contributed significantly to something - Yes older celebrities or "legendary" celebrities as well as historic figures have lots of information available on the net but for the most part what is avaialable is related to their careers and contributions that rarely have an Irish slant. Their personal lives are not avaialble in detail except for those elements that are either tragic, scandalous or controversial - their opinions about themselves are found in old interviews and articles and formal written biographies that rarely are reproduced on the net. Goin back to Garland she has literally hundreds of sites dedicated to her and there is a lot about her family held in various ancestry and geneological specific sites but most sites are focused on either her addiction problems, her film career or why she appeals to gays rather than if she thought of herself as Irish or not. This is the same for many "historic" and older individuals - there are also problems with younger ones as well - Lara Flynn-Boyle and John Travolta being 2 exceptions because they seem to understand and appreciate their Irish Ancestry. I would be curious to find anything from the litany of Culkins listed or any of the other current silly celebrities that have contributed little or nothing to Irish American culture or any culture and to a degree feed the negative sterotypes. Vono 01:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

It'd be hard to make a list of people who have, using this example, contributed to Irish-American culture in some way it's all rather a matter of opinion (I mean for example, Lara Flynn Boyle may appreciate her Irish heritage, but she hasn't really contributed much to Irish-American or Irish culture per se, and she isn't that famous). Documentable ancestry (just like now) is what I'd be going for with the new list title, so your example of Ella Fitzgerald wouldn't be listed at all unless someone could prove she had Irish ancestors. I doubt people would remove anyone from the list - that really rarely happens and with the new title it'd be clear that people of more distant Irish ancestry can be listed. I'm sure there'll be unsourced additions to the list, but my plan is to finish sourcing this list, and monitor the later additions. Mad Jack O'Lantern 06:14, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

JackO - Yes this is what I have been trying to get across without actually berating anyone's "contributions" or suggesting that an entrant is "less famous" or worthy than another as this is all subjective and can encourage the tit-for-tat edits that I have seen in the past. Documentable evidence is the key and only way to go with this type of material and extent of Irishness and contributions to Irish culture if not clear by the entrant's "fame" can be linked and further sourced by the viewer if they so choose but thsi information is usually in teh main articles that can provide extensive links depending on teh poularity of teh entrant and this is very positive and useful although teh articles are also subject to individual agendas and people including their personal slant at teh expense of more relevant information - the Garland article is again a good example of this. At one point there ws a section detailing her Ancestry that has been deemed to be non-important by an editor who deleted it - yet others keep expanding other sections that are as irrelevnat but clearly within their interest. I personally beleive that ancestry is important inforamtion for any historic person as our personal history defines who we are and shapes to a degree our reactions and experiences. As you are probably aware most well know celebrities and historic people have geneological information easily and readily available through the numerous ancestry and history sites that can be viewed without subscription. Going back to individuals such as Ella Fitzgerald, Eddie Murphy, or any other entrant that has an Irish name the rule must be if there is no evidence to support entry other than the name (appears) to be Irish they should not be listed unless it is under a sub-category as un-documented. I also think that perhaps a sub-category called Legends with Irish Ancestry can be useful as it would group that handful of very famous people in their own sub-category similar to the others that would be useful to researchers as the main list of Actors for the most part are not individuals whose fame or contributions will stand the test of time as some of these legendary people have had careers spanning many decades (60 years in O'Hara's case) and are as famous dead (Garland) as they were alive and are of more common interest to researchers who use teh lsit to develop projects for a variety of sources. A few pictures would also be useful to make the site a bit more interesting. Regards and Happy Easter - it is the 90th Anniversay of the 1916 Easter Rebellion in Dublin and there is a large display of Irish Americans' contributions to that event with of course Mr DeVelera (New York born) leading that display. 86.12.253.32

I performed the page move. Happy belated Easter, but as for "Legends of Irish ancestry", if you want, you can create that section, since I'm not entirely clear on who is a legend or not... :) Mad Jack O'Lantern 02:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Please see discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) for current discussion of a potential policy to apply to all ethnicity lists on Wikipedia, including this one. JackO'Lantern 20:22, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moving this page to "List of Americans of Irish descent"?

As an experiment, maybe we should move this page to the title "List of Americans of Irish descent"? I think the "partial/distant" section is kind of stupid now anyway. In any case, if we have that page title, we can just put anyone with any Irish ancestry at all on the list, and we wouldn't have to discuss standards of inclusion/etc. as long as one could source that the person has some kind of Irish ancestry. What does everyone else think? I'll wait until tomorrow night before I move the page to that title - I think this could be a general solution to all the ethnicity lists we have. Mad Jack O'Lantern 18:05, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] People who need to be sourced

People whose Irish ancestry I couldn't confirm:

[edit] Actors

This is pathetic. To be Irish-American you must have Irish ancestory and to acknowledge this ancestroy, and thus describe themself as an Irish American. Seee Irish American. Logoistic 16:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Some of the people are the list are so insane to question because of how they look, there name, and there religion. It would be like needing a source to confirm that LeBron James is African-American.

Sorry, religion/name/look are three very good hints, but we simply must have a source...... I added the names you gave me a source for to the article. If you have any more sources let me know or add them yourself. Mad Jack O'Lantern 04:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

It's descriminatory, you don't need to a source to put people on the list of African-Americans. 75.3.4.54 18:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Why is it discriminatory? We have to cite sources on all ethnicity lists based on Wikipedia:Verifiability. And it's being done across the board. Mad Jack O'Lantern 19:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Do these people consider themselves Irish-American? You can't use Irish ancestory as a basis for this. As the Wikipedia article on Irish American states: "Irish Americans are residents of the United States who acknowledge Irish ancestry" - the key word here being acknowledge. So provide references for each person that they have expressed that they are Irish American. Logoistic 16:20, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arts

[edit] Gangsters

  • Bugs Moran - not Irish. [6] "Moran was not Irish, as his name would imply. He was born to Polish farm workers in Minnesota in 1893. When he arrived in Chicago in his teens, he changed his name to win sympathy and camaraderie from Irish gangs in the area. Somewhere around the end of World War I, Bugs earned his nickname at a tailor's shop. For some reason, Bugs felt that the tailor was price gouging him because of his fake Irish ethnicity."

That is a myth.

It may be, but I'm not sure. It seems plausible that both of his parents were Polish, rather than Polish/Irish. Someone outta find a book bio of him and see. Mad Jack O'Lantern 04:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the Polish myth really started as a joke as a way of insulting him. 75.3.4.54 18:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Law

I know for a fact that he is. 75.3.4.54 02:11, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Literature

[edit] Media/Journalists

[edit] Military

[edit] Musicians

[edit] Politicians

This is the worse section - mostly very little info on these people, so I think they were basically listed because of their name Actually, most of these people are Irish and it is very well known, you just never heard of them, and your ignorance is no reason to remove them.

Do you have a source for him being Irish? He can go back then

first president of the Irish Fellowship Club of Chicago, see [11]

[edit] Sciences

[edit] Sports

[edit] Others

Mad Jack O'Lantern 03:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

JackO - I think that the change is an improvement, however I think that people with a Distant Irish Heritage take preference over "Fitional Characters" that should be the last category. But this is my own opinion therefore I did not change it. Wasn't it Mohammed Ali's Maternal grandFATHER who came from County Clare? I added a link to him and re-added Mary Jemison with a link - Vono 10:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

==Double Entries== I noticed that Bing Crosby is listed under both Music and Actors _ I think one lsiting is sufficient for each entry but udnerstand that people like crosby and garland were both notable actors and singers - 86.12.253.32 13:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] STUPID NAME CHANGE

What if you were born in Ireland but become an American citizen? Should you be removed from this list? 75.3.4.54 03:14, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

No, you're still an American of Irish descent (as well as birth). It's hard to define exactly what an "Irish-American" is, which is why I think it's ultimately a good idea to just change the title and make it a go-for-broke. This should happen to the other ethnicity-American lists soon as well. Mad Jack O'Lantern 04:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

If you are a citizen of Ireland, you are more than just descent. 75.3.4.54 18:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] INTERESTING ARCTLE FOR REVIEW

Red, White Blue and Green by Alison Benney

Is it for nostalgia, identity or just good craic that encourages so many Americans to claim Irish heritage? There are barely156,000 first-generation Irish residents in the US, yet the 2002 census reported over 34 million persons claiming Irish ancestry. It seems to be an issue of cultural distinctiveness, like identifying as an Italian American or Polish American. An "Irish Parisian" I spoke with wondered whether it is more a question of status on some ethnic social ladder, which would make quite a change from the attitudes of racism and prejudice that first greeted Irish immigrants until almost a hundred years ago. Back then solidarity was a matter of survival. After all, the first St. Patrick's Day parade took place not in Ireland, but in either 18th-century New York or Boston, depending on the source. In 1962, Chicago mayor Richard J. Daley (third-generation Irish) was the first to famously dye the city's river green for the occasion. Yet it wasn't until 1996 that Dublin organised its own parade. What in fact defines a "real" Irish American? A list of the renowned include Jesse James, Wild Bill Hickok, Mickey Rooney, Errol Flynn - but none of them had Irish roots, at least not within seven generations. Dancer Gene Kelly, on the other hand, moved with real Irish panache, thanks to his mother from Co. Clare; Grace Kelly's paternal roots were born in Co. Mayo; and Maureen O'Sullivan, Tarzan's unplain Jane and mother of Mia Farrow, was born in Boyle, Co. Roscommon, as was her childhood classmate, Vivien Leigh. Lassy Maureen O'Hara came from Ranelagh, near Dublin, and is especially cherished for her role in The Quiet Man - which may soon be dubbed into Gaelic for the first time. Her leading man, the legendary John Wayne, had 5th generation Irish blood, going back to ancestors born in Co. Antrim. In good diasporic synchronicity, Quiet Man director John Ford, born Sean Aloysius O'Feeney, also directed Stagecoach, the film that kick-started John Wayne's career. Despite the sometimes slight birthright, imagine the US without the irreplaceable talent of the Irish community. What would "White Christmas" have sounded like if Bing Crosby (great-grandfather from Co. Cork) hadn't made it a hit? Ditto for "Over the Rainbow", sung by Judy Garland (grandmother Fitzpatrick from Dublin), whose popularity in Ireland was so great that the song "It's a Great Day for the Irish" was written especially for her. In fact, "Danny Boy" was popularised first in vaudeville by Irish Americans, and Chauncy Olcott (Irish mother) wrote the classics, "My Wild Irish Rose", and "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling". And the list goes on, from Walt Disney (Irish grandmother), comedian Jackie Gleason and Art Carney (Irish parents), writers Eugene O'Neill (Kilkenny) and F. Scott Fitzgerald, to boxing champs Jack Dempsey (Kildare) and John L. Sullivan; from industrialists Henry Ford (Cork) and Louis H. Sullivan, father of the skyscraper, to the socialist and labour agitator who helped create the IWW, Mary Harris "Mother" Jones (born in Cork). Everyone has their favorites - these are just a shortlist from a period of only 50 years or so. As Merle Haggard (uber-American) wrote, some Americans are proud to be an Okie from Muskogee. But like 34 million others, I would love to be a Benney from Kilkenny.

TOP

© Copyright Irish Eyes

That is an interesting article. Too bad the author asked but didn't answer what really makes an Irish-American. :) Mad Jack O'Lantern 07:27, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I think it's ok to list Crosby and Garland twice, since they were so famous in both fields so how does one decide anyway? "People with distant Irish ancestry" actually shouldn't be there at all - there's no point to it anymore. There are just a few people left because I haven't sourced their section - politics or something - and re-added them there. Mad Jack O'Lantern 17:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Jacko - I agree double lsitings for people of exceptional noteriety in different fields can be warranted as researches may look in several fields and miss one. So those "distant" stragglers left will be worked into the main list?

Yup, they will be. I guess I'll source politicians/etc. tonight, so those listed will be added there or here. There's no real point to a "distant" section with the new page title. Mad Jack O'Lantern 22:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page title

How about "List of Irish-Americans and Americans of Irish descent"? That could be a logical compromise. This should be done to other ethnicity pages as well, after consensus there. Mad Jack O'Lantern 19:29, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's much point really, as all Irish Americans are of Irish descent. As I mentioned on the pump we can just put a note mentioning if they have specifically commented on their ancestry, or if they were actually born in Ireland mention that. Arniep 23:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Are you saying that what you just suggested should be in effect for a page called "of Irish descent", or a page called "Irish Americans"? Mad Jack O'Lantern 01:07, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
We should keep it as descent as some believe that xxx American requires someone to have self identified. Arniep 01:19, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It should remain List of Irish-Americans unless the change is made for all ethnic groups. 75.3.4.54 21:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It would be maybe acceptable if there were two pages. List of Irish-Americans and then a page List of Americans with Irish ancestry. But not having a list for Irish-Americans, while having it for so many other ethnic groups seems rather descrinatory. Does wikipedia not consider Irish-Americans to exists? Does Wikipedia think Irish-Americans are not notable enough to have a list? Millions of Americans identify and are Irish-Americans and many of them are notable and they belong on their own list. They are not simply of Irish descent, they are Irish-Americans. If the title of this page is not changed back, then Irish-Americans do not belong on this list. 75.3.4.54 21:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The problem seems to be that certain people are claiming we can't put someone on a "List of Irish-Americans" (or a list of any other Americans, for that matter) without their being described as "Irish-Americans" or "Irish" in a source, as opposed to "Irish descent", "Irish parents", "born in Ireland". See the discussion here Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) - especially the comments by Grace Note at the bottom. This is obviously a problem that effects all Wikipedia lists by ethnicity (as for sources, that should be a norm, see List of Swiss Americans, List of Polish Americans, List of famous German-Americans and many others which are being sourced). Obviously some kind of solution needs to be devised, and it would be a solution that would effect all ethnicity lists on Wikipedia. So, user 75.3.4.54, I hope you will post your comments at that discussion I just linked to, because we need to figure out how to run all these lists once and for all. As for your comments on the politicians, I'll see if I can find a source that those few were born in Ireland, but can you link me to one of the history books so I can source the others to it? Mad Jack O'Lantern 22:27, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It's a sad day for the Irish when they are be seperated from all other ethnic groups in America. 75.3.4.54 00:24, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Qualification

I'm changing the qualifications for inclusion into this list. I am going to say the list is only for those native to Ireland, of significant Irish ancestry, who identify as Irish-American. I hope people can help me remove people from the list who do not qualify. And I hope someone will then move the list back to List of Irish-Americans. 75.3.4.54 01:23, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Look, I can move the page back in a few days if no one has objections. In that case, we should go with my proposed inclusion, and include people born in Ireland, 100% Irish, 50% Irish, and lesser but only if you can prove they identify as Irish (so Garland and her daughters would stay on the list). Mad Jack O'Lantern 05:31, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but you can't make your own criteria for who does and does not go on the list. The only way to make a list without names constantly being added or removed (as happened before) is to work by descent. Arniep 11:58, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
JackO - I agree with your conclusion - and beleive it to be logical - however I think identity is a very personal thing and people with remote ancestry can consider or identify with a particular background and therefore any "DOCUMENTAL" evidence of descent is acceptable BUT I do beleive that the real key to this list is that the "irishness" of individuals when in doubt, or if less than say 25% can and SHOULD only be based on some evidence that the indivudal identified, with or contributed in some way to Irish-American Culture during their lives. As I said before there is a lot of information on famous people in sources other than the net BUT if a link cannot be provided people should not enter or remove entries on their own whim - I guess you could add a category at the very end of the list for UNDOCUMENTABLE possibilities to be sourced by anyone who so desires - but this leaves it open to vanadlisation and silly entries - have you looked at list of Irish people lately? there is an Entry for someone listed as Veronica Fruiter or something like that as "Fucker" I did not remove it as I did not want to get into an "entry" war with some looney who can ultiamtely trash the list with bogus entries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.12.253.32 (talk • contribs) 12:04, 23 April 2006
Sorry but this is non negotiable. Having a list based on such subjective criteria is original research and thus not compliant with policy here. The only way to make the list compliant is to make it verifiable that they have Irish ancestry. Arniep 12:16, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Not sure if we are in disagreement - nothing should be "subjective" you either have Irish ancestry or you do not - but it should be verifiable and I guess thats the point 86.12.253.32 13:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I was just saying that is subjective to say who does and who does not qualify as Irish American. The only way to avoid arguments is if a source says a person had an Irish ancestor then they should be accepted on this list. Arniep 13:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Look, you guys figure it out amongst yourselves. But I think it's a bad idea to move any more lists to these titles. Mad Jack O'Lantern 18:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

If the list is just for Americans of Irish descent, then actual Irish-Americans do not qualify on the list, since they are not known as simply of Irish descent. I will remove all Irish-Americans from the list, since they do not qaulify for this list as it stands now. 75.3.4.54 20:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Look, I'll probably move the title back to Irish-Americans by the end of the evening. Just don't make any huge removals until then. Mad Jack O'Lantern 20:45, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Why don't we have a support/oppose thing instead? Mad Jack O'Lantern 22:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Come on you're just being childish now you know there are only 3 people paying attention to this page at the moment and we know their opinion already. Arniep 22:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually, it's four people. Two people support the move, you don't, I'm not sure about the fourth one. In any case, I don't see much reason for keeping this title out of synch with other ethnicity-American lists. I seriously doubt anyone really cares if people like Vince Vaughn, Frankie Muniz, etc. are or are not listed on this list. Mad Jack O'Lantern 23:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
This list and others like it are a tremendous public resource and used as a base by serious researchers that prepare pieces of work and studies of various types and degrees of importance or value, Irish national Identity is something that has a wider interest (albeit around St Patrick's Day) world over because the Irish are perhaps the most unique of national origins because they simply spread all over the world and have instilled a national identity that has remained with their "descendents" no matter how diluted the pedigree becomes and this is what is of interest to people who may be analysing this - theire are many millions of people world wide who have an "Irish" identity and Irish Americans in particular have raised this profile over the last century. The Irish flourished everywhere except in Ireland and today this list is important to that evidence. - You are right in that people such as Vince Vaughn and Frankie Muniz to name only 2 on the list are not currently very strategic entries as most serious people will skim through teh list lookign for a higher level of fame and most probably wouldn't recognise 75% of the names on this list but perhaps they may achieve a greater level of LASTING fame one day and that is when they will become more important to the list and the wider Irish identity issue but in the meantime the list does provide a valuable starting point and I am concerned that this bickering over Descent vs subjectivity will have negative results I am not overly concerned with its title. 86.12.253.32 23:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I didn't mean that Muniz and Vaughn weren't famous enough, I just meant they are both barely Irish. Mad Jack O'Lantern 23:32, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nicole Kidman

Sorry to have to do this, but the Nicoke Kidman source you gave[12] is a mirror website/copy of Wikipedia. It even credits Wikipedia at the bottom. We can't use ourselves as sources.... Mad Jack O'Lantern 22:49, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Jacko - no problem - take her out if you like until I find another source - I know what her ancestral background is and it is Irish/Scottish however the info is just not on any sites (yet) 86.12.253.32 16:48, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Time for a trim down cleanup?

This page is just huge. I think we should consider getting rid of non important categories and leaving the most famous people to keep people interested in the page. I mean does Irish "Fictional Characters" really need to be on the list? Just makes the page so much longer.

JackO - we are on the same wave-length - I think Fitional Characters could be a totally separate list - but was hestitant to remove it - I don't mind adding enetries that I know have a relevance to Irish American culture and to a degree fictional characters can have some value in demonstrating how deeply embedded irishness is within the American way of life - but only those that would be widely known and clearly irish. For the most part those listed merely have Irish names probably more out of coincidence than intent - for instance Scarlett O'Hara and Studs Lonigan characters are in well known and classic books and films (in my opinion only) are valued entries as their irishness is an integral part of their character and is mentioned throughout the story/book but for the most part the others provide no value to anything Irish - The Simpsons and Family Guy charaters I guess can be relevant in that there were episodes of those cartoons in which the story lines revolved around their "irish roots" no matter how offensive they may have been and thsoe cartoons are viewed worldwide. But I feel that Fitional Characters does not add any value to a List of irish Americans and although our individual interests and opinions are subjective and I recognise this, but I do feel that the only people that are worthy of this list are those that have contributed in a significant or "lasting" way to Irish or Irish American culture or to their field of expertise again in a significant way - I mean the majority of people on this list are unknown in the wider context and will not stand teh test of time and therefore have no value as entries. As the intention of such lists is to harness the contributions of the particular sector to demonstrate the talent, intelligence, charitable, technical abilities etc. etc. of the entrants - thus extolling the virtues of that group of people to list anyone otyher than highly accomplished people is useless as researchers will only go through the list picking out the handfull that have "lasting" fame and/or represent immediate recognition the rest are simply of no interest. In addition the majority of those names have no "history" to them and are merely a character's name that happens to be or sound "irish" but the story has no Irish content or relevance and do not have any sufficient information to create a Wikipedia article they shoudl be removed to another list or category or deleted altogether. 86.12.253.32 09:35, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

btw, that trimming poster wasn't me.... I have no real opinion on this... Mad Jack O'Lantern 18:42, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
sorry Jacko - I just think its nuts that names are added to a (specific) list without any relevance or supporting evidence or link to an article without any consideration being given to the remit or purpose of that list - e.g. what does the name/ character from the film Back to the Future have to do with Irish American culture - the film certainly has no relevance and makes no mention of anything Irish, the name is just a silly made-up name to suit the character. Fictional Charaters section should have the same guidelines attached to it as the rest of the list - e.g. some evidence that there is an Irish element to the character other than the name "sounds" or "maybe" is Irish.86.12.253.32 21:01, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

You're probably right. Mad Jack O'Lantern 05:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

What fictional characters do you have a problem with? Most are noted as Irish in the TV show or film they were in. 75.3.4.54 18:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems that you are unfamiliar with the movies and TV shows that the fictional characters are coming from. If you have seen the Back the Future movies, you would obviously know how being Irish is relevent. 75.3.4.54 18:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree - I am unfamiliar with many of these fictional characters and fail to see what relevance they have to a a List of Irish Americans. I have seen Back to the Future films and do not recall any relevance to Irish American culture or to Marty McFly being Irish - but hey - maybe I missed it - I would be interested in what scene or scenes it is in - Katie Nolan the character from A Tree Grows in Brooklyn - a very beautiful story about an Irish/German immigrant American Family a beautiful story and a beautiful film with strong Irish content so although today maybe not a well known character the story and film are classic but the same strong Irish connection is missing from many of the Fictional entries and I do beleive they have only been added because the name sounds Irish or it is assumed that it is Irish. The film Ladder 49 has a strong Irish American theme running through it as does the film Only the Lonely - why not add Danny Muldoon and Rose Muldoon from that film and how about the guy from Car 54 he was Muldoon too - and lets not forget Mr Magoo or how about all the Bundys from Married With Children - they must be Irish American with that name - what I am saying is that the fictional character list can be endless without some guidelines how about Rosie O'Grady and Nellie Kelly song heroines - oh yes and Lucy Ricardo she had to be Irish after all she was Lucy McGilacuddy before she married Ricky Ricardo , where does it end? 86.12.253.32 22:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

You must have missed Back to the Future III. The fact is you are unfamiliar with the characters on the list, so why are you even discussing it? You are now mentioning characters who aren't even on the list. The only character on the list you actually said you have a problem with is Marty McFly, but if you saw Back to the Future III, you would understand why he is on the list.

Just don't complain about something when you don't know about it. 75.3.4.54 23:56, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Nearly every character on the list was referenced as being Irish and has distinct Irish characteristics. If you don't even know what the stories are about, it is just plain silly for you to challenge them. 75.3.4.54 23:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay so back to the Future 3 does have an element where Marty McFly goes back in time and meets his ‘Oirish’ ancestors – therefore the assumption from that can be that he is Irish American – and whilst I may not be overly familiar with some of the names added and their stories, I agree that if the connection is evidenced it is acceptable but I will not be adding the characters of the film High Spirits or the Irish American character that was in “The Field”, or Cardinal Fermoyle from the best selling book and classic film “The Cardinal” or the “Captains and Kings” characters all of which have clear Irish American identity that is a strong part of the character's development simply because most people will not have a clue to who they are and it is as simple as that. . I am concerned that the Fictional Characters will overtake real people – the list is a useful source of information and (well known) Fictional Characters do have a place within the wider concept of “Irish American Culture” and how it has evolved over the years – I simply feel that the potential to have a list that will become virtually unmanageable due to the sheer volume of entries that can be potentially added will diminish the value of the information and list in general – but I guess that’s not for me to worry about . I could easily add 40 names to this list right now without much effort and also can link them to evidence to demonstrate the connection but feel that the information is of no value unless the entry has some long-term lasting power but accept that this is only my own opinion and editors can do as they please.145.229.156.40 10:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

In the first Back to the Future, Biff calls George McFly an "Irish bug". 75.3.4.54 19:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This list

Wouldn't it be much nicer to make this list "Irish-Americans" again, and include people who've been identified explicitly as "Irish-Americans" or "Irish" in a reliable source? (i.e. instead of "Irish descent", "Irish grandmother", etc.) Strictly following Wikipedia policy that way would neatly clean up this list and remove all the random people who have no connection to Irishness except a distant ancestor. What is the encyclopedic value? Most of the people who are relevantly Irish-American have been described as such (i.e. even Judy Garland and her daughters, who have more distant ancestry but have been described - or described themselves - as Irish). I've seen this brought up before, so how about it? This is being done across the board with the other lists, and now this one looks out-of-synch. Mad Jack O'Lantern 06:35, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree - the list has no value if the entries are not sourced or relevant - The only entries on this list should only be those that have a real connection to Irishness either through their own statements or through reliable sources - otherwise it is valueless - a distant ancestor is okay - if the identity is there through a personal statement or other source. Entries are beginning to filter in that have not been sourced. 86.12.253.32 10:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I hope this subject is further discussed in the next few days. I'll be away for two weeks, maybe we'll have some kind of consensus when I come back. Mad Jack O'Lantern 15:47, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I propose making a number of sub-lists from this list, such as 'List of Irish American actors' and also a category that would collect this and the sublists together. This should make each list easier to maintain and easier for the reader to find people. Comments? Thanks Hmains 19:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Seems reasonable enough. Politicians/actors oughta be the prime targets for sub-listing Mad Jack 19:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I moved this list back as I had an extremely long discussion with Jack previously and explained that the only way this list can have any sense to it whatsoever and comply with Wikipedia policies is to include the descent in the title. It is unworkable to govern these lists by only including people who have been said to be an xxx American by so and so or someone who has said they are Irish American but to not include people who have talked a lot about their Irish heritage but have not actually been called an Irish American, or conversely to include those who have full Irish ancestry but have never uttered one word about it. Arniep 10:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
This is an encyclopedia, not a random collection of information. There was consensus and no disagreement when I suggested to move the title back. Please explain to me how listing people by great-grandparent's ethnicity has anything to do with what an encyclopedia does. You haven't got no consensus to change the title to the longer and sillier version. Mad Jack 13:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Garth Ennis

I have never seen any suggestion anywhere that comic-book writer Garth Ennis is American. Where was this information sourced? User:Damndirtyape 2.29pm, 5 September 2006 (GMT)

You're right, it was probably a mistaken insertion by someone - now removed. Thanks, Mad Jack 16:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Andy Rooney

What idiot used this quote to justify adding Rooney to this list of "Irish-Americans":

  • "I'm proud of my Irish heritage, but I'm not Irish. I'm not even Irish-American. I am American, period."

Can't you read? 195.92.40.49 17:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who gets to decide who's Irish-American?

I think we should only include people on this list if they themselves have expressed that they consider themselves Irish-American. References would be needed. For example, did Billy the Kid consider himself an Irish-American? Or did someone just add him to the article becuase he was born in "New York's Irish slums"? I'm of 'Irish decent', but don't consider myself Irish one bit, and would hate to be labelled by someone else like this. Logoistic 12:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, if yer Irish-American yer Irish-American, "you can choose yer friends but not yer family" as they say. Maybe we should state that Afro-Americans arnt Afro-Americans unless they have "expressed that they consider themselves Afro-American".--Vintagekits 23:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
You are conflating race with ethnicity. Whilst the two terms do blur, the term "African American" is derived from a definition of race. As the article African American notes:

"This usage of the term African American generally refers to black African ancestry and American nationality. But generally speaking, the term does not include Whites or Asians from Africa"

Yet "Irish" is an ethnicity, that is:

"a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith 1987)."

Whilst race defines African Americans, it is more malleable factors that define ethnicities like Irish-Americans. As the article ethnic groups notes:

"Ethnic groups are also often united by common cultural, behavioural, linguistic, ritualistic, or religious traits."

You can't choose whether you're black or not, but you can choose whether you adopt the above traits. Think in a simimlar way how many have British descent - yet look at how few class themselves as "British-American" (or even "English-American" as most decendents would be English). Should we then start calling these people British-Americans instead of just Americans? No. The point is that Irish-Americans are an ethnicity who's membership of the social group relies strongly on self-identification rather than more conrete factors such as skin colour doing it for them. Therefore we shouldn't be adding names to lists like this unless they have self-identified, which shouldn't be hard to do. Logoistic 13:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tasha Yar

Why does Tasha Yar have a citation needed? --68.102.143.27 (talk) 03:30, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] merge

do not merge the list of Irish in New York into this article. That list has different contents than just being a list of people Hmains (talk) 05:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC)