Talk:List of unrecognized tribes

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[edit] Southern Cherokee Nation

This section was originally at the talk pages of State recognized tribes

The user at User:74.138.62.77 made an edit to this page consisting of the following:

As of 3-10-07 from the Kentucky cabinet, “The Southern Cherokee do NOT HAVE legislative recognition. They may have a couple of letters of appreciation from State officials but that does not make them legally recognized. The State has NO criteria for recognition.”'
This was the reply received from The Kentucky Native American Indiana Council and the Kentucky cabinet when contacted by mail concerning the above false claim of State Recognition.
Letters of appreciation and a document from the 19th century does not grant State Recognition just as the treaty of 1866 does not grant Federal recognition to any Southern Cherokee.
Many groups try to claim to be more than what they are, this is an example. As a Native American I would love to see this state recognize an Indian group deserving of this honor. But groups that continually make false claims only hurts legitimate efforts toward this goal. The group making the above claim also boast of 600 members on their website, but only a small percentage is in Kentucky with the remainder of their tribal rolls residing throughout the United States. Many of their members were from the tribal rolls of a now disbanded Southern Cherokee Group from Weber Falls Oklahoma. If there is any doubt to this claim on State Recognition, contact the Kentucky Cabinet.

To which, the user at User:71.227.132.35 apparently responded:

The above comments are misleading in truth. Criteria for Kentucky State recognition of Native American tribes have not been established by the Kentucky Native American Heritage Commission (this could be years away). Therefore, Kentucky’s legislative body in all probability would not act anyway to recognize Native American tribes within the State of Kentucky. However, the late Governor John Y. Brown did recognize the Southern Cherokee Nation, on executive letter head, as an Indian tribe on December 26, 1893 ( http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/histdoc.htm ). Furthermore, a proclamation by incumbent Governor Ernie Fletcher, issued during Native American Heritage, month is a bit more than a letter of appreciation (http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/govfletcher.htm ). The current proclamation clearly states that Governor John Y. Brown welcomed and recognized the Southern Cherokee Nation of Kentucky in 1893. The late Governor John Y. Brown's recognition is upheld by said proclamation and has not since been held for naught. On a more probable than not basis, once more formal criteria has been established for the recognition of Native American tribes within the State of Kentucky, the Southern Cherokee Nation will be grandfathered in as a bonafide Native American Tribe.
“A brief history of how the Southern Cherokee ended up in Kentucky. In 1866, after the Civil War, the Southern Cherokee established a government in Webbers Falls, Oklahoma. They were half bloods and mixed blood Cherokee. Their first Chief was Confederate General Stand Watie. He petitioned the U.S. government to provide protection for the Southern Cherokee from the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma; the full bloods. The full bloods burned the majority of the Southern Cherokee people out and killed many in the process. The Union Army maintained that they did not have the troops to protect the Southern Cherokee, so the slaughter continued. Some Southern Cherokee managed to survive in the Webbers Falls area, while many others were forced out into other states. Several of these states are Missouri, Arkansas, Indiana, Illinois, Tennessee, and Kentucky. After the death of Chief Stand Watie in 1871 the Southern Cherokee Nation was moved to Kentucky by his close cousin James Samuel Martin.”
James “Samuel On The Hill” Martin is the great grandfather of Michael “Manfox” Buley, Principle Chief of the Southern Cherokee now headquartered in Henderson, Kentucky http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/NA%20Heritage%20Commission.htm . The Southern Cherokee Nation has been located in Henderson, Kentucky for over 140 years and have maintained a tribal government while continuing to burn their sacred fire.

I've moved the above statements here to the talk page so that a synthesis of these two views may be developed for the article space. I would advise both parties that Wikipedia does not generally allow original research; edits should be verifiable, which means that another editor or even a non-interested reader should be able to access information which supports a claim of fact. Letters from the Kentucky Cabinet to a private individual generally would not fall under this category, nor would communications with the Kentucky Native American Heritage Commission. The reason is simple: I, for example (or any other reader outside a particular location), have access to neither of these; except that I contact these agencies myself. That's quite a burden to place upon the average Wikipedian. -- SwissCelt 08:41, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

03/17/07 Buffaloheart writes:

Governors in the Commonwealth of Kentucky have historically recognized Native American Indian tribes and continue to do so. The Southern Cherokee nation in Kentucky was recognized by Governor John Y. Brown in 1893 and then acknowledged by Governor Ernie Fletcher by proclamation on November 20th, 2006. In 1991 the Governor of the Commonwealth of Kentucky also recognized the Piqua Sept of Ohio Shawnee as an Indian tribe ( http://aiac.state.al.us/PIQUA%20tribal%20history.htm ). And at one time the White Cloud Cherokee tribe, now disbanded for whatever reasons, was also a Kentucky State recognized tribe. I find it disturbing that the Southern Cherokee Nation (SCN) is somehow in a dubious status based on unsubstantiated remarks posted by an obviously disgruntled soul. The Kentucky Native American Indian Council, Inc. (KNAIC) is sited as a resource to discredit the SCN, but the KNAIC is actually a private corporation of Native American activist ( http://www.ridgetopshawnee.com/ ) and should not be confused with the Kentucky Native American Heritage Commission (KNAHC) which is a part of the Governor’s Commerce Cabinet ( http://www.state.ky.us/agencies/khc/Native%20American_heritage.htm ). I find it difficult to believe that the disgruntled party received such a tactless reply from the so called Kentucky Cabinet. Why would the Honorable Governor Ernie Fletcher issue a laudatory proclamation acknowledging the SCN, and then in turn allow one of his cabinet members to publish such a defamatory letter about the SCN?

On 3-19-07 User:74.138.62.77 made an edit to this page consisting of the following:

The Kentucky Native American Heritage Commission (KNAHC)was where the reply was received from, not The KNAIC. The KNAHC has no mention of The SCN as a recognized tribe in KY, here is the site link to verify for yourself. The whole point to the discussion is that the state of Kentucky has no legislative recognized tribes. Here is the site link:

http://www.state.ky.us/agencies/khc/Native%20American_heritage.htm

Further more the state Governor does not have legislative or individual power to grant State recognition to a tribal group, it must pass the cabinet. Although an honor for the governor to personally recognize a tribe, legally it means nothing! I find it had to believe if Kentucky had a recognized tribe after all this time, that it is only found on that tribes web site, that is hard to believe in itself. As for being disgruntled, I have no interest in the SCN, only as student studying KY Indian history and events and have made no accusations against this group other then their claim to state recognition is incorrect and misleading.

Buffaloheart writes:

I find your statements very incongruent from one post to the other. You first stated that your alleged letter was from the Kentucky Native American Indian Council which is a corporation and now the letter is supposedly from a governmental agency. How can we believe you as a reliable source for the Wikipedia. You also initially purported that all the Southern Cherokee Nation had was a couple of letters of appreciation, but as it turns out the Southern Cherokee Nation has an authentic Commonwealth of Kentucky document, on executive letter head, recognizing them as an Indian tribe in 1893 ( http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/histdoc.htm ). The Kentucky Native American Heritage Commission (KNAHC) was not in existence until about a hundred years later, and has not yet developed criteria for the recognition of Native American tribes and in fact may not do so. The Southern Cherokee Nation now has a current proclamation that further validates Governor Brown’s initial recognition in 1893.

Answers.com: “Governors in the United States originally lacked much power. They were often subordinate to the state legislatures and had little control over administrative agencies. However, political reforms in the early 20th century shifted power from the legislative to the executive branches of state governments, and today governors are among the most powerful political figures in the United States. At the National Governors Conference, developed from a meeting called (1908) by President Theodore Roosevelt, the nation's governors meet annually to discuss common political and governmental problems”.

I think the point here is that The Cherokee Nation has been recognized by the executive branch versus the legislative branch. Governor Brown’s recognition is duly executed and genuine!

Finally, Please do not edit the main article, you were previously warned not to do so.

On 3-19-07 User:74.138.62.77 made an edit to this page consisting of the following

This will be my final statement on this subject, the documents on you tribe's site does not say "Recognized!"This is from reading your own site documentation! It states Governor John Y. Brown Recognizes the SCN as an Indian Tribe on Dec 26-1893 and welcomes them to the State of Kentucky, not that they are a State recognized tribe, that designation did not in 1893. The newer document also no where on it shows that the SCN is recognized by the state of Kentucky. It states the same that, and I quote your document, “John Y. Brown Recognizes the SCN as an Indian Tribe on Dec 26-1893 and welcomes them to the State of Kentucky” and that “Now therefor I, Ernie Fletcher Governor of Kentucky do hereby pay tribute to.” No where on your site or referenced document does it grant you group State recognition, no where.

Kentucky has no state recognized tribes. My sources are as follows:

The Kentucky Government Web Site: http://www.kentucky.gov When searching for “Native American” No where on the site is the SCN found.

The Kentucky Native American Heritage Commission (KNAHC): http://www.state.ky.us/agencies/khc/Native%20American_heritage.htm No where on the site is the SCN found.

The SCN document you refer to so adamantly: http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/histdoc.htm No where is State recognition granted:

Also for state recognition to be granted it requires multiple hearings. My own tribe that has State recognition took 2 years of testimony hearings in front of a Special House Committee and this legislation had to be voted upon and passed by both the State Senate and the House of Representatives. A single act by any Governor can not grant what you claim. Where are your sources to back up your claims on state government and the powers of individual governors?

I admit I erred on the confusion of the KNAHC vs the KNAIC, I had been researching both and it was an editing/typing error on my part, which I did clarify. If that is very incongruent, no more so that a false claim to State recognition, which hurts the efforts of other groups to help achieve this for the state. My sources are clearly present here, there is nothing alleged on my part. The only alleged claim is to the SCN having State Recognition which I can find no other reference to that the documents on their site, which I can find no evidence of The State of Kentucky granting legal recognition.

Show your sources and proof as I have done!

3/20/07 Buffaloheart writes:

The Southern Cherokee documents speak for themselves. No further proof is required. The preponderance of evidence is on the side of the Southern Cherokee Nation now located in Henderson, Kentucky for the last 140 years. There has been no proof presented on this forum that can negate the following summary of facts:

1) No where are there official Kentucky State hardcopy documents, or electronic media documents indicating that the Southern Cherokee Nation is not a state recognized tribe. 2) The Southern Cherokee Nation was recognized as an Indian tribe about 100 years prior to the conception of the Kentucky Native American Heritage Commission (KNAHC). 3) The KNAHC does not recognize Native American Indian Tribes within the State of Kentucky, nor does the commission determine criteria for their recognition. The primary mission of the KNAHC is to preserve Native American Culture http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/NA%20Heritage%20Commission.htm . 4) The Commonwealth of Kentucky Legislative Branch has no history of recognizing Native American Tribes, but just recently started forming a task force to study the issue. The KNAHC will have two members on the proposed task force. 5) The Southern Cherokee Nation was recognized as an Indian Tribe 114 years ago. http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/histdoc.htm This is well before any recent action by the Legislative Branch to even begin a study of the Native American dilemma in the State of Kentucky. That dilemma being that the state of Kentucky was used only as hunting ground by several Native American tribes, but yet literally thousands of Kentuckians claim their Cherokee and Shawnee ancestry. 6) Governors of the Common Wealth of Kentucky have historically recognized the following tribes: The Southern Cherokee Nation in 1893, the Piqua Shawnee in 1991 http://aiac.state.al.us/PIQUA%20tribal%20history.htm and the White Cloud Cherokee tribe that is now disbanded. This has established a trend and several quasi Native American groups have since sought executive recognition. 7) The Southern Cherokee Nation was honored with an official proclamation indicating that they were recognized as an Indian Tribe by the late Governor John Y. Brown on December 31st, 1893. The Honorable Governor Ernie Fletcher did not sign that proclamation without having first checked it for historical accuracy. http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/govfletcher.htm . 8) Each state’s criteria for the recognition of Native American Indian Tribes are different and thus there is no universal standard to measure the value of an out of state Native American Indian tribe. To do so is demoralizing and only diminishes the collective self worth of all good Native American Indian People.

Conclusion of facts: The Southern Cherokee Nation is a state recognized Indian tribe until such time as further criteria is established by the Kentucky State Legislature.

Walk in Peace and Beauty, Buffaloheart

On 3-19-07 User:74.138.62.77 made an edit to this page consisting of the following

I have only a question to your statement, by your criteria then any tribe that was recognized as having been in the State of Kentucky and still exist is a State Recognized Tribe. Since my people the Shawnee by documented historical fact held most of Kentucky throughout the States recorded history, recognized as such on multiple historic web sites, and by your own words were recognized, we in fact have the same right to claim Kentucky State Recognition? My sources are as follows to the Shawnee's right to the same claim:

1- Extract from "The Indian Tribes of North America" by John R. Swanton, Bureau of American Ethnology Bulletin 145�1953, [726 pages�Smithsonian Institution], (pp. 229-230) 2- http://www.kcnaac.org/ 3- http://www.britannica.com/ebi/article-203399 4- http://www.courier-journal.com/foryourinfo/112502/111802.html 5- http://aiac.state.al.us/PIQUA%20tribal%20history.htm by your own listing

And just because you do not like a reply to a discussion, does not grant the right to delete that entry.

Oginali,

I thought you already said your piece?

I have no quarrel with my Shawnee brothers and I have no personal criteria for the recognition of Indian tribes within the state of Kentucky. I merely presented the facts, as I know them. I do know that the Piqua Shawnee have official recognition in the state of Kentucky and they do have some reserve land apparently shared by a relatively small group of people with extended familial ties. Although small in number they have somehow managed to avoid total assimilation by the dominant white culture. I also know that at different times the Shawnee have been closely allied with the Cherokee against the Iroquois and the Catawba. Cherokees have been known as Shawnee and vice versa. However, I do not know the complete ethno-history of the Piqua Shawnee. However, The Piqua Shawnee are well represented on the KNAIC and the legislative task force. I do have a link to share with you about the Shawnee which I found to be very informative http://www.tolatsga.org/shaw.html .

Additionally, I never meant to imply that Kentucky was “just a hunting ground” shared by different Native American tribes. I was actually trying to make a point otherwise. The white propagandist would have us all believe this myth, but the Cherokee, Shawnee and Chickasaw all had permanent settlements in Kentucky. For example, there are way too many people in southeastern Kentucky claiming to have Cherokee ancestry to believe otherwise. Recent archeological evidence in southeastern Kentucky has confirmed permanent Cherokee settlements were once thriving in the area. The near absence of Native Americans in Kentucky when the white settlers begin to arrive, in my estimation, was largely due to diseases brought in initially by the Spanish as early as 1540. Also in my estimation, the void was partially filled with displaced mixed blood Native Americans from the Tidewater Virginia area and tribes defeated by the Iroquois. Do I believe the surviving remnants of the Cherokee, Shawnee and Chickasaw deserve to be recognized by the State of Kentucky? Yes I do.

Blessings, Yanssi

PS – I did not delete anything off the talk page, but we were both cautioned about making unauthorized changes to the main article.


On 3-19-07 User:74.138.62.77 made an edit to this page consisting of the following

Brother I agree with you 100% on you last statement, I also believe the surviving remnants of the Cherokee, Shawnee and Chickasaw deserve to be recognized by the State of Kentucky? And yes there were 4 know peoples in Kentucky including the Shawnee and Cherokee. My family lived with the Shawnee, but most my blood is Cherokee, and I have documented this on both Cherokee and Shawnee rolls. I have no argument with this belief or with you. I wish the SCN all the luck in their endeavors, but many including myself find the statement on the main page to be a false claim and not justified by the presented documentation, it just does not add up to true State recognition as many tribes have earned and obtained, that is my only problem. I have also made no changes to the front page, but my last here was deleted, by whom I do not know. And I asked a question, which is a change in subject so a new peace if you must, that with the fact that other comments felt the need to further the issue prompted me to commented further instead of letting it rest. On this I make no further promise, but enough discussion on both our parts has been made, and enough energy lost. I know much about the SCN in Henderson and Native American affairs in the State of Kentucky, we will leave that we disagree on what State recognition is. You feel you have made you point and I have made mine. Since the main page is marked and people can see that it is in question and come here to decide for themselves is enough for me.

Smoke and prayers

3/21/07 - Hopefully the last response

Oginali,

We are “Original Principle People” and we should not have to work to earn the recognition we are already deserving of. Our birthright as Native Americans has always been one of sovereignty and freedom. I think many of us get a certain feeling of validation as Native Americans when we are recognized by a legislative jurisdiction. It is an old cliché but being Native American really is a matter of the heart. The problem is that some of us are living in poverty and having a Native American heart is not going to get the medical bills paid or even put one of our children through medical school. Recognition from the Executive branch is much like having a Native American heart in that it makes one feel good, but it still does not get our Elders in to see the doctor. Executive recognition is also cost effective for the host government and provides good public relations for politicians, but does little in the way of real help for our people. However, we as Southern Cherokee are thankful for what we do have, because we are that much closer to getting the help we so desperately need for the health and welfare of our Elders and children. Principle Chief Michael "Manfox" Buley and the Southern Cherokee Nation are not trying to moor a paddle boat on the banks of the Ohio River so that we can conduct illegal gaming. We are spiritual Native American people and we are true of heart http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/NA%20Heritage%20Commission.htm.

I am also content to let the matter rest for now. I am glad we were able to find some common ground and remain respectful.

From the heart of the Buffalo: Polmer “Buffaloheart” Burke


PS – My response to your initial comment was also deleted. The moderator may have deleted both comments in an attempt to clean the main page.

[edit] Kaweah Indian Nation

I don't know what to do with this but it's related. It's a tribe with a loose geographic identity that was later invoked as part of a scam. Nonrecognized. don't know where to put this information in relation to this article.

Kaweah Indian Nation —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.251.74.133 (talk) 03:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

They are already listed twice on the listing: once under Kansas and again under North Carolina. However, I will go ahead a wikify the entries to link to the stub article. CJLippert 13:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia-recognized tribes?

I created this page to give some place where Wikipedia can discuss Tribes that have not been recognized by the federal or state government. I mean no judgment on the legal validity of claims or more importantly on what a tribe is, what it takes to be a tribe, or what this is all about. This article is supposed to be for groups that for whatever reason simply did not get the government to recognize them. I also changed the Federally recognized tribe article to make clear that federal recognition is not what makes a tribe or nation, that is just a designation the US government makes for its own purposes. The same thing with state state recognition. It is important in terms of benefits and programs, opportunities, etc., but that is an external definition, and even there only for legal and political purposes.

Unfortunately we have another problem / issue, which is that Wikipedia has its own standards for recognition. An article on any subject has to meet notability guidelines, which means that a very small group of people without any historical context or importance doesn't qualify. It also has to be verifialbe and have WP:RS reliable sources. That is the real problem. It means that in order to write an article or add material and not have it deleted, you have to find some third party source that has written about it in an objective way - a newspaper, book, etc., that is reliable and not self-interested.

Indian nations do not get mentioned in the news much, which makes sourcing very difficult. Even more troubling, the reason the mainstream press doesn't write about them is often the same reason they don't get federal or state recognition either: sources are hard to find, proof is hard, the majority culture does not care about them, they have been oppressed or scattered, etc. I dont' see any good way around this but maybe this article can help. At least the rules here on Wikipedia are not designed to exclude. It is simply the best way to keep the encyclopedia trustworthy. There are invalid and even fake claims made about tribes, and about every subject on Wikipedia, so we can't just include everything that anyone wants to add.

If you are from a tribe or you care about a tribe, the best thing to do to help Wikipedia is to find an article somewhere off Wikiepdia -- any article -- and post a citation to it to show that the tribe is a real one. If the tribe has a headquarters, or a petition, or even better a website, that is a good link too. Wikipedia frowns on email addresses but a website about a tribe is a good link. Hope that helps. Wikidemo 02:51, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I think we can get quite a bit of unrecognized tribes in the US listed here, even if they aren't notable, since this is basically a list and not an article about each of the non-notable unrecognized tribes. However, to prevent people from just making up a claim of a tribe, as you have already stressed, it has to be verifialbe and have WP:RS reliable sources. The State recognized tribes article also needs major clean-up since there are some now who are Federally recognized and a lot of unrecognized tribes mix into that list. CJLippert 21:44, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Choctaw Nation of Mississippi River Clan

The reason this came up is that the below notice was added to the State recognized tribe article. It seems sincere, and important. But it's hard to figure out where it fits in Wikipedia. I did some quick google research and couldn't find a source. If this is for real, it would be shame if our rules mean that a tribe can't be mentioned here. Maybe someone with better google skills than me or some information can help. Thanks, Wikidemo 02:51, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Choctaw Nation of Mississippi River Clan- Soverign Nation that has, and continues to exist on Turtle Island "nothamerica". Members of this Federally, State and U.N. recognized Tribe, were scattered during the Choctaw Trail of Tears 1830 to 1833; and again in the early 1900's when the U.S. Federal Government declared that this Tribe, and these People did not exist. My Grandfather is still here... and I am still here....WE STILL EXIST! The U.S. government CANNOT determine wether a TRIBE or People exist or not. This to be determined by the Tribe or People themselves; according to U.N.law. I am Shaman RedHawk Choctaw Nation Mississippi River Clan, WE STILL EXIST! Aho! We encourage other "lost" or "scattered" members of this tribe to contact Tribal Headquarters: NAC.ChoctawMississippiRiverClan@yahoo.com

Togeather We Are Reuniting the Sacred Circle of the Tree of Life! Aho!

The thing is, wikipedia can create things, and perhaps this should be discouraged. If someone claims to belong to a group that doesn't have wide recognition, but they can point to a WP page about their group, it gives the group some credence, independent of any references, something that might influence a city council or something like that. And I'm afraid that isn't our job. What you say is true, if a citation can be found, even in a local weekly paper that isn't available online, then at least we can have a citation. Wikipedia has a lot of power, and if wikipedia recognizes something, it is important. I support wikipedia recognizing things which can be cited (your favorite obscure artist, for instance), as it enriches and personalizes the experience of editors and readers. But without any citation, I think we are overstepping bounds, especially when the issue is sensitive. Smmurphy(Talk) 04:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Southern California

There are a few unrecognized tribes of descendants alledgely of Luiseno (the Temeku Rancheria of Temecula), Serrano (the Rancho San Timeteo of Calimesa), and Cahuilla (the San Cayetano band of Palm Desert) tribal origins fought for federal or state recognition. Often they are considered remnants of Californio or Spanish Californian origin, due to their Spanish surnames and Mexican cultural features they possessed (or legally called Latino).+ 71.102.53.48 (talk) 06:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)