Talk:List of universities in Belgium

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A mortarboard This article is part of WikiProject Universities, an attempt to standardise coverage of universities and colleges. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this notice, or visit the project page, where you can join the project or contribute to the discussion.
List This article has been rated as List-Class on the quality scale.

Contents

[edit] Katholieke Universiteit Leuven Afdeling Kortrijk

Is the Katholieke Universiteit Leuven Afdeling Kortrijk a university of its own? If not, I think it shouldn't be listed there with equal footing. Any comment? --Edcolins 19:29, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

No it isn't, so I have removed it. It is a part of the KULeuven. --Cheezycrust 23:46, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Concerning the changes made by Ambiorix

The changes made by Ambiorix seemed biased so I contacted the user. The user never replied. Even stranger, the user disappeared within 24 hours. This is what I wrote to Ambiorix:

- Your addition to List of universities in Belgium seems biased. When you write that "Universities and university colleges in Belgium offer programmes in which Dutch or French is the language of instruction. Some offer programmes taught in English." you probably focus on university colleges. As I wrote: Most universities (and I did not write 'university colleges on purpose) have programmes in English. Some actually even in Spanish or Chinese. You seem to want to underscore teaching in other languages by the traditional Belgian universities.

Your next addition is legally completely wrong though. "A few international institutions of higher education, offering accredited programmes, are present in Belgium, through European accords, or by virtue of other national or international legal rights." This is incorrect. According to OECD, WTO (GATS) and EU policies and regulations national governments are fully responsible for higher education offered in their country even by foreign private institutions. They should have transparent procedures in place to accept foreign higher education institutions. This means that international institutions can -already at the moment- get a recognition in Belgium (through the communities). The two institutions you added are not recognised though. This means that their diplomas are not recognised by any government in Belgium.

The Brussels School of International Studies should be on the list of British universities because they award British diplomas (whatever their recogntition). In Belgium, a diploma awarded by this institution needs to be recognised as a foreign qualification by a NARIC.

THIERRY is also not a recognised Belgian institution. They award diplomas from Brexgata University Academy. Brexgata is not undisputed; as one can read here. Brexgata claims accredition by UCRED. UCRED is an organisation which only seems to accredit Brexgata. Totally contrary to common practices among accreditation organisations they also don't publish their accredited programmes. In conclusion of the above, I would like to ask you to remove the two additions unless you can proof that they are recognised by either the Flemish, the French or the German Community of Belgian.

- Could the conclusion be that someone is pushing the agenda of institutions that are not recognised in Belgium. --O-AoA-o 19:47, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

About THIERRY (re your comments above). They do not award diplomas from Brexgata University Academy, but precisely the opposite. As for the dispute: the Talk has long been abandoned as I see it. The dispute-subject seems to have been the history of the organisation. In my opinion it is well documented on the site. So the dispute is quite redundant now. As for the accreditation by UCRED: Brexgata nowhere claims accredation by Ucred, in fact both organisations merged (see other thrread, plus info found on the organisational site). As for the publication of accredited programs: there are other organisations that require log-in procedures. Sideline: it is interesting to see that on the public domain "front" there are indeed cases of fraud (as Dr. Schneider reported to me - see other thread) (Ambiorix 18:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC))


For the sake of clarity: the revision as of 07:18, 7 January 2007, is mine, not entirely that of Ambiorix as you seem to imply above. Regarding the discussion about THIERRY, Brexgata, and UCRED I find this rather trivial. If O-AoA-o's own agenda is to transmogrify this article and discussion in accordance with his taste for academic policing, and in harmony with "Belgian recognition" then O-AoA-o lacks objectivity and misses the bigger picture. Coming back to the subject of the discussion itself, Brexgata and Ucred are not seated in Belgium, and therefore they are of no immediate relevance to this article that focuses on Belgian institutions (in Belgium). Regarding THIERRY, and since this institution's credibility seems to be questioned: that institution is one of a kind, with an emeritus mission. Belgium as a nation should be very proud of the fact that the school is Belgian, and based on its national soil, even if by its explicit nature and implicit non-partisanship (read: non-linguisticism) the school does not fit into the Flemish and Frenchspeaking (federal) educational partitioning system. (EuroAcademics 20:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)).

[edit] Concerning the changes of O-AoA-o

I have received his message today, why the claim that I have "disappeared"? What is that? Is one supposed to reply within minutes? I will post a reply in the coming days. With regard to Brexgata University Academy it seems O-AoA-o is mixing up awarding and accrediting organisations. More to follow. (Ambiorix 19:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC))

Sorry about that, but when I click your name I get "Article not found". Even after you posted this. Rather strange. --O-AoA-o 20:14, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
As I reflect upon this "situation"... When this article was started by Mangobot it was aimed at being a list of universities in Belgium. You recently transformed it into a list of universities and colleges recognised by one or both of the Communities. In which case the title of the article should be changed, or a new article started. As for the institutions that do not fit in your modified list, one has to make a choice. Either this article becomes one that lists all institutions, or one that lists only the ones you "favour" by their Community-recognition status. In the latter case a new article will need to be started for the "other" types of educational institutions active or represented in Belgium. I believe it has to be made clear to the general public that recognition by the local government is not mandatory by the Belgian law. As for THIERRY it is my clear impression that although it is a Belgian-origin graduate school this institution does not actively seek recognition in Belgium. I suppose this connects with the independency principle it pursues (as per the information on their website). It is clear however that this institution is genuine, validly established in Belgium, and referenced by other universities, educational organisations, and assemblies (AACSB, NCLP) around the world (see search engine results). As for Brexgata University Academy and UCRED I visited the websites to notice that they have merged and that this organisation is an international assembly. It issues the diplomas of THIERRY; this has to do with the nature and novelty of the programmes the school offers (as per info on the assembly's website). So much for now. (Ambiorix 20:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC))
Recognition reflects the value of the degree offered. It can be true that although an institution is not recognised it can be valuable to study there. One should however not give the impression that the degree is a genuine diploma which would be recognised as a university degree in Belgium or in the rest of the world. I don't favour Community-recognition (since I also included the Royal Military School and the European College) but I do favour clear information about the legal status of institutions and the degrees they offer. The type of recognition I favour is where students (young or adult) know they will get a recognised diploma.
To get recognition by a Belgian community you don't have to give up your independence or your academic freedom, as you seem to think. An example would be Vesalius College. This is an independent, American style institution in Brussels. As a private entreprise, their degrees where not recognised. Since they got themselves registered as a higher education institution, they are part of the recognised higher education institutions.
And of course, recognition is not mandatory. But the law in the Flemish and French Community (not the German) prohibit using the title of Bachelor, Master and Doctor/Ph.D unless granted by a recognised institution. (There are even jail terms in the law.) Even institutions awarding these degrees in the future will be liable. And yes, this means that also abroad they will not accept you using this title.
So I am not saying this is not a genuine, validly established institution but this is not enough. What I am saying is that I can set up the same kind of institution right at home. And my degrees would even have the same legal value.
I looked for references to Thierry by AACSB (Google) but found nothing. And NCLP is not a reference. I can get any newly founded institution on there too as long as I have the money to pay for it.
My real worry concerns your last sentences. This sounds more like the way diploma mills function. And when you read their chapter on "Common attributes of diploma mills" you will see why I am worried. I just want to know the value of the degrees offered by the institutions on this list. --O-AoA-o 16:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
How on earth can you state this would be a diploma mill?? As for the AACSB: an article (The Mind of a Leader) was published in the AACSB magazine (BizEd) in 2002. Besides, THIERRY is not a business school, so it is not a member of AACSB. But for AACSB to consider THIERRY in an article entails that the school is more than "ok", no? By the way, have you seen that the founder of the School, Prof. Bal, has lectured at the UN Leadership Institute? Can anyone do that? Is that not sufficient credential either? If you wish to chase for diploma mills, why not

do so for the ones that have popped up here twice recently and that I weeded out? So, my real worry here is that you seem to focus on the wrong institution. Besides, meanhwile I had removed the entry (as per the other discussion-thread, see the School's opinion about this). (Ambiorix 17:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)). (now signed, sorry)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ambiorix (talk • contribs) 17:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC).


At 16:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC), O-AoA-o states: "Recognition reflects the value of the degree offered". What is the meaning of the words 'reflect' and 'value'? Recognition, in the sense defined by the educational laws in Belgium, does not relate to value. Value of a degree is first and foremost reflected by the beholder of the degree. (EuroAcademics 20:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Recognised or not recognised -

19:47, 7 January 2007 (UTC) O-AoA-o stated "Could the conclusion be that someone is pushing the agenda of institutions that are not recognised in Belgium". I would tend to reply "is someone pushing the agenda of institutions that are recognised then?". Let's be fair, we live in a democratic society. There is freedom of choice. I see no problem in having a mix of "recognised" and "not-recognised" institutions, but one has to come to terms with what "recognition" entails in Belgium.

There should indeed be freedom of choice but there should also be clarity about the value of the diplomas. We shouldn't present institutions of which we don't know if their diplomas are worth more than the paper their are printed on. Can I put my newly established home university (which could be a diploma mill, see above) on the list? --O-AoA-o 16:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Again, if this article is to be one of Belgian institutions recognised in Belgium (only), then the listing should reflect this. In other words, and in line with your way of (re)structuring this article, and of referencing to the institutions listed on the sites of the Communities, then the ones that do not appear on the latter should be removed. (Ambiorix 17:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)).


To O-AoA-o: Strictly speaking a diploma is not worth more than the paper it is printed on, so you have no valid point there. Why do you talk about "newly established home university"? Nevertheless, if your newly established home university is recognised then it should be on the list. Next, why do you address the issue of diploma mills in this discussion? As I read elsewhere in the discussion you use Google to search sites. Perhaps you should do a better search still, and establish the right interconnections too, and then discard your wrong assumptions. But perhaps you should start with the institutions themselves, as Ambiorix did. Regardless of that, there are many other sources. By coincidence I happen to know that THIERRY runs a Masters program with a group of high officers and executives of the European Union in Brussels and Strasbourg. Since THIERRY offers the program, and Brexgata University Academy awards the degrees, that to me is sufficient proof that the program and organisations were screened, and that they are of valid status and very high credibility, without the recognition in Belgium per se. The process is probably supported by the inter-collegiate Charter, most presumably signed by recognised institutions of higher education in other European countries and perhaps by one or several recognised institution Belgium as well. That is, quite simply, top-level recognition. Close of my Talk; is it a "ghostchase" that O-AoA-o put in motion? (EuroAcademics 21:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC))

To EuroAcademics: I tried to discuss certain issues with you (User_talk:EuroAcademics) but you didn't react. --O-AoA-o 09:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
To O-AoA-o: You have started this whole discussion in the public domain, here on this discussion thread, on 7 January 2007. That is how it should be continued, not by private communication. (EuroAcademics 19:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC))

[edit] About the article modifications and discussion comments of O-AoA-o -- and about the education system in general (close of this discussion thread)

To O-AoA-o, and all fellow Wikipedians.

Resulting from the questions and doubts previously raised here by O-AoA-o (see thread above) I decided to undertake my own research. I gave it my best shot, invested nearly a whole day. The first thing I did was to go straight to the source of the information: the Brexgata University Academy itself. This is the thread of my (re)search.

I first called the Brussels consular office, hosted by the Thierry Graduate School. Upon explaining what I was undertaking I was given the coordinates of Dr. Schneider, with difficulty reaching him, in a meeting at the Pôle Universitaire Européen in Strasbourg, France. He explained that Brexgata and Ucred has merged, with some realignment of activities since 1st January 2007. Secondly he indicated that Brexgata is not a university per se, but an independent assembly of international academic members. To my question why the list of members is no longer accessible on the internet Dr. Schneider replied that last year a case of fraudulent site-mirroring was uncovered in a country on the other side of the globe, and that in order to avoid this type of situations in the future the Council decided to remove the list of names and the list of accredited programs from the public domain internet. A number of other associations and assemblies in the world also restrict public access to such data, he added. I then explained this present Wikipedia-discussion. Dr. Schneider stated that Brexgata is not a Belgian university, it is an international academic assembly. It does meet in Belgium every other year, but that is for historical reasons he said. About the scope of Brexgata’s activities Dr. Schneider said that it is, today, one of a few assemblies in the world that embraces different types of organisations, not only state-funded universities but also private ones, governmental agencies, NGO’s and so forth. The key educational projects are currently in sub-Saharan Africa, the Middle East, and South East Asia. On the details of how it awards the degrees of THIERRY he indicated that a consortium of universities ratified a very unique inter-collegiate charter in 2002-2003 to support the new programs of THIERRY and the school itself. He stated that such a process was not at all a habitual procedure in the academic spheres, but that it reconciled with the relative incompatibility of the statutes of the Graduate School, its independence principle in particular, with the recognition parameters and procedures that were in place in Belgium at that point in time (emphasis). Freedom of organising education is in the Belgian Constitution, he added, recognition by the federative bodies also entailed right to subsidies, an element that was not compatible with the THIERRY principle of self-sustainability, of autonomy. Since Belgium has a federal educational system there was a geographic and linguistic choice to be made too, Flemish, French-speaking community, or both perhaps, and where, questions that were left partly unresolved, also for efficiency reasons. He added that the Sorbonne-Bologna process really took off in 2004, and that process changed the initial parameters, as Belgium brought in its share of changes, as all EU countries did. He also mentioned that THIERRY could have been founded in another EU-country, with well established regulations for private institutions, or elsewhere in the world, but Prof. Bal, a Belgian, and the founder of THIERRY, wanted the new Belgian school to be in Belgium, and he has perfect rights to do so. Dr. Schneider then took at great length explaining that in the Brexgata-Ucred merger completed last month December 2006 all steps had been taken to avoid any conflict of interest in the accreditation and diploma-awarding, adding that the THIERRY programs had been accredited before (emphasis) the merger took place, and that THIERRY should not be considered as it were a school within the university academy. On my asking what THIERRY intended to do in the future he said that THIERRY has started its Anchors project, and referred me to Prof. Bal, the director of that School. Whom I then called, in Brussels.

Prof. Bal indicated that indeed the initial status of THIERRY was unusual but that it had happened before in the history of Belgium, for instance when the ULB was founded in the 19th century. When asked why in the case of THIERRY no choice had been made in terms of linguistic affiliation for the School (something typical of Belgium nowadays, my personal note here) he answered that when he founded the school he felt no need for that type or sort of aligning. The base argument is that THIERRY is a Belgian school, and an international one, not one that would be catalogued in the Flemish or French-speaking communities. He added that this did not hamper the graduate school in its international development, and well beyond Europe. When asked what the Anchors project is about he indicated no more than: "the untying of a knot, tying it in a different way, and anchoring the school in a different riverbed". He then talked about the crazed TV-show that took place early last month on the French-speaking television (personal note: a fiction that looked like reality for a while, in which the separation of Flanders was portrayed. It caused a lot of commotion, anger, and disappointment in Belgium and elsewhere). He said that he was so shocked, and terribly ashamed, as a Belgian citizen, that the students and colleagues would call or email him from North America, Africa,... to know what was happening.

When I explained the discussion here on Wikipedia he said that if this article is about separating public, private, or other educational institutions on the basis of being recognised in accordance with each of the linguisticall tied Community-regulations, then he does not wish THIERRY to be part of a segregating sort of discussion, and certainly not in the virtual world. On that basis he wishes that the entry on this article's of institutions be removed, or he will ask someone else to do so. He ended the discussion by saying that (quote) “There are other far more important, far greater things, that require immediate attention on this planet. Do you want to talk with our students in distressed countries of the world? Or with the persons who support the school and my work, at the UN, UNESCO, Council of Europe, and other places?..”

I was left speechless for at least ten seconds. Then he said “Thanks for calling, I appreciate your concern and sense of accuracy”. I called him back a few hours later and asked if I could post my storyboard of the phone-exchanges, and he agreed, without reading it beforehand.

Afterthoughts: I now close this discussion, at least for what my share is in it.

Finally, I reluctantly remove the THIERRY entry in this list that shoud be called “List of (recognised) universities in the Flemish-, French-, and German-speaking Communities of Belgium”. Alas. (Ambiorix 16:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC))


I believe we should all congratulate Ambiorix for his research. I am tempted to reintroduce THIERRY in the List of Universities in Belgium but I respect the wish of Prof. Bal. I come to wonder why O-AoA-o transformed the whole article to start with, and without prior consultation (discussion). Before the changes we had an entire playfield, now we have a tunnel, and we can't see the mountain. That is not very 'Wiki'! (EuroAcademics 21:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC)).
I am not very happy about the inacurate description of Belgian education policies in your contributions.
"Freedom of organising education is in the Belgian Constitution, he added, recognition by the federative bodies also entailed right to subsidies, an element that was not compatible with the THIERRY principle of self-sustainability, of autonomy."
Recognition by the federative bodies does not entail the right to public funding. As mentioned before there are examples of recognised, private institutions which are not funded: Vesalius College, Flanders Business School, ...
Freedom of organising education does not come without strings attached though. The government cannot limit the right to organise education but it does give the governments the right to regulate education.
At the moment, recognition is not a bothersome and bureaucratic procedure. It does mean that when recognised an instition can be held accountable for what they do.
"Since Belgium has a federal educational system there was a geographic and linguistic choice to be made too,..."
Recognition does not mean linguistic affiliation. A recognised institution can indeed be internationally oriented and offer all their programmes in English.
Some institutions are recognised by two communities. One instition in Brussels is seeking recognition by two communities at the moment.
In conclusion, please note that the federative governments regard recognition as a way to protect students but not as a way to keep private institutions out. They rather prefer that all private institutions become part of the system because than it is transparant for everyone what the status of the institution and their degrees is. Transparent is something we cannot say about THIERRY and their degrees, even after your lenghty explanation. --O-AoA-o 09:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

To O-AoA-o: From User Ambiorix's research you seem to have completely missed the following conclusions, (a) the choice, the decision, of the Thierry School in terms of possible eligibility to state funding, which it does not, eventually, wish to qualify for or receive; (b) the choice, the decision, of the Thierry School not to choose for one Community, nor the other, nor both; for reasons of its own; (c) the choice, the decision, of the Thierry School to contemplate higher education on a global scale; (d) the choice, the decision, of the Thierry School to articulate university cooperations (tutelage) in other ways, than those prescribed, for instance, by the Flemish Community for registered organisations (example is the Vesalius College you mentioned previously; it is registered but seemingly not accredited, yet); (e) that the programmes of the Thierry School are accredited, but not by the Flemish or French Communties of Belgium. Furhter, when you state " (...)They (the governements) rather prefer that all private institutions become part of the system (...)", can you provide references? Finally, about transparency, you have become very transparent about your actual intents in having transformed, without prior Wikipedian consensus, this whole Wikipedia article. That the Thierry School is, to your judgment, not transparent, proves to be very wrong, and subjective -with the aim of constraining the educational institutions in this article to a frame that meets the full extent of the Flemish or Frenchspeaking Community parameters (or Belgian ones), yours. Besides that, there at least two other institutions on the list that do not "fit" in your mode of classification. Not all recognised institutions resort under the Ministries of Education in Belgium. Nor does the Thierry Graduate School; it was opening up to Europe and the world before the full implementation of the Bologna process. Finally, have you thought about the fact that in Belgium this school is the only one in leadership, as a discipline of study? It cannot, from a practical point of view, partner up with another university (in the sense of the registration and continuity processes of the Flemish community) since there is no other university offering similar programs in that field, in Belgium at least. It therefore makes a whole lot of sense that the School chose international cooperative moorings, from its very beginnings. End of this talk(EuroAcademics 19:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)).

[edit] Why are they arranged geographically?

If, as the article correctly explains, education in Belgium is the responsibility of the linguistic communities, why is this article arranged according to region (i.e. geographically)? It is incorrect to label any educational institution in Brussels as being in Flanders or in Wallonia, as Brussels is part of neither. I propose the article be re-arranged in one of the following ways:

  • Remaining geographically arranged, but with Brussels as its own category. Under this could be the subcategories denoting responsbility, "Flemish Community", "French Community", and "Other".
  • Remaining geographically arranged, but with Brussels as its own category. Under this could be the subcategories denoting principal teaching langugage, "Dutch Speaking", "French Speaking", and "Other".
  • Being re-arranged according to responsibility, i.e. "Flemish Community", "French Community", and "Other"
  • Being re-arranged according to principal teaching language, "Dutch Speaking", "French Speaking", and "Other".

I'd be pleased to rearrange this article. Please let me know what you think of my proposition.

Deregnaucourt 14:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree that there are a number of things to be clarified and changed in the article. There is, quite obviously, the Brussels-Capital Region (not Community). Institutions based there should be listed in accordance with what you propose, but perhaps based on their Community-recognition. It needs to be said that Brussels is also the capital of the Flemish Community; that makes things more complex. I guess a foreigner will not understand the Belgian trium-system of Communities, Regions, and the Federal (national). We have not even considered the German(-speaking) Community yet. So, perhaps sorting by "Flemish Community" (except Brussels), "French Community" (except Brussels), "Brussels Capital Region", plus "Other", seems feasible. Then, the "Other" would allow entries for institutions that are not specifically (or not yet) bound by either or both of the Communities-recognition. But perhaps institutions in "Other" would be recognised in other ways, or by another governmental body in Belgium, such as the federal Ministry of Defense for the Royal Military School I believe. The option of principal teaching language is of value as well. Perhaps this should be mentioned in a revised paragraph that starts at the beginning of the article. However, the option of re-arranging only by teaching language is nearly impossible to make; institutions can offer some programs/levels in one (national) language, and other programs in English, or both, etc. That option is too complex and will require continuous updates. Any other opinions about the case of Belgium?

(EuroAcademics 17:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC))

The introduction is right in that higher education is governed by the Communities. There are three Communities in Belgium: the Flemish Community, the French Community and the German Community. These Communities determine by law the univerities and colleges that can issue valid diplomas. It is therefore not logical to have "Flanders + Brussels" or "Wallonia+Brussels" in the title. I understand that this is difficult to understand for foreigners, but the Flemish Community comprises Brussels, as does the French Community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.91.179.207 (talk) 12:58, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merge

I'm not sure if this is entirely appropriate as I don't know a thing about Flanders, but I have proposed a merge of List of universities in Flanders into List of universities in Belgium#Universities in Flanders (Flemish Community), as it appears as if there is some overlap between the two articles. Squids'and'Chips 00:00, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


Merger done