Talk:List of twelve-tone pieces
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[edit] Merge proposal
I see that it has been proposed that this list be merged with the List of pieces which use serialism. This seems a sensible proposal, since neither list is especially long (at least, not at the moment), and there is considerable duplication, especially in the list of Schoenberg's compositions. However, as the article Serialism indicates, there are different senses of that term, and by no means are all serial pieces twelve-tone (at least two of the pieces presently in the list of serial pieces, the Calonne and Tremblay, do not use twelve-tone technique, for example). For this reason, it would be best to merge the lists under the "serialism" heading, and possibly to indicate in that list which pieces fall under the smaller heading "twelve-tone pieces".--Jerome Kohl 00:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. I should have taggedo it as It has been suggested that this article or section be merged into List of pieces which use serialism. Twelve-tone is a specific subcategory of serialism. --S.dedalus 23:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Category question
Due to a recent edit by an anonymous editor, my attention is drawn to the fact that this list is categorized under Wikiproject Classical Music Articles. Because this recent edit involved adding a punk-rock album to the list (and I notice a number of film-score entries, as well), it should be clear that, like serialism, "twelve-tone" is a technique, not a genre or style. What are other editors' views on this? Should this list be restricted to "classical" music? (If so, should the title be altered to reflect this, and a new list begun for Twelve-tone popular music?) A further thought: to what extent should WP:Notability be applied to this list which, at the moment, seems to be a bit indiscriminate?—Jerome Kohl 01:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- I find it very had to believe that there is any twelve-tone music in existence that is not classical art music. Any popular music piece that was added to this list I would view with extreme skepticism unless it was well sited. If there really is a rock song that actually uses twelve-tone technique though I don’t see why it should not be added. It seems unlikely that this list will ever be taken over by pop music. --S.dedalus 03:02, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, check the recent addition to the list of Greg Ginn's "The Process of Weeding Out". Some time earlier, you will find someone added items by Benjamin Frankel, David Shire, and some bloke named Sculptured. None of these appear to be "classical art music." Not long ago, I learned of a British heavy-metal band called Twelve Ton Method, who claim to be advocates of Schoenberg's twelve-tone technique. However, a quick listen to some of their allegedly 12-tone pieces made it plain that they either had no idea at all of what 12-tone technique involves, or they are sending us up. This brings me to the issue of WP:RS. It is all well and good for someone to claim that Brahms's Lullaby or "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" (or, indeed, Greg Ginn's "The Process of Weeding Out") is a 12-tone composition, but a mere claim by any editor is, I trust, insufficient to establish such a claim. Naturally, none of those pieces by Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, etc. are documented in this list with published analyses demonstrating twelve-tone technique, but I expect there is little doubt that they could be. The film scores, Mr. Ginn's work and, in fact, the (unnamed) works of Josef Matthias Hauer might be a little more difficult to verify in such a way. I personally would welcome the addition of pop songs using this technique (and I believe it would not be difficult to find jazz pieces that do so), but the problem of reliable sources remains. Then there is the issue of notability.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:46, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
