Talk:List of twelve-step groups/Archive 1
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List Needs Clean-up
I removed all of the hoaxes. Many groups should probably be removed as they're not notable. Groups without meetings, for instance, should be identified and removed. -- Craigtalbert 10:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Our Media Anonymous and Anti-Nutrients Anonymous meetings are for the most part ad hoc but any two people can set up their own meeting and we will post this information. We seem, in general to be especially creative people and we find this is working. Even though we do not list the information many years we also have had regular meetings and also have been using a piggy back system i.e.: members are encouraged to go to OA or WA etc. for support inbetween meetings. There is no where in the "Big Book of AA" or in "the Twelve and Twelve" where it is written in stone, that meetings need to be posted, or that they need to be regular.
There is the suggestion for "90 meetings in 90 days" ...we are not big enough for that yet...that does not mean that we are not alive and well and that the public should not know about us. If the "The Satruday Evening Post" had not published the article about Alcoholics Anonymous when they were as small as we are, it is possible they would not exist today.
What is important is that the program works and how the members choose to work the program is up to the members. "These are suggested steps".
Hartcomm 02:27, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Removed theoretical groups
I removed all the groups that didn't have any indication that there were any face-to-face meetings from the list. Call it WP:N or WP:EL but every idea someone had for a group that they made a website for doesn't deserve to be listed here. -- Craigtalbert 07:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
We just posted the info about the 12 step groups for media addiction and we are not a hoax ...there is only a requirment to have 2 people at a meeting ...we do not know who these pontificators are that take it upon themselves to violate the free speech of others, but they should cease and decist. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mft12x12 (talk • contribs) 21:34, 16 August 2007.
- If the groups do not publish or make available a directory of meetings it is WP:LINKSPAM, and they can't be included on this list. -- Craigtalbert 21:39, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
There are many groups that meet utilizing the 12 Step principles but do not publish a regular meeting schedule either because they are closed groups, meet irregularly, or for a variety of other reasons. For that matter, there are people who have meetings on-line because they are so debilitated from illness or age that they can't physically make it to a face-to-face meeting. These principles are for everyone who takes them seriously. They save lives and sanity wherever they are practiced. The 12 Steps and meeting principles can be used to heal from being powerless over any number of addictions, or even in a more general sense as through the ARTS group (artists recovering through the Twelve Steps) to deal with a variety of recovery issues. it seems important to me to let people know the vast number of ways the 12 Steps have been used and continue to be used, in the spirit of Bill W. rather than to over-police the situation without possible adequate basis ````TruthHelper
- Please mind WP:FORUM. In response to your other comments, yes, I am aware of closed meetings and that many groups meet irregularly, and still others meet over the phone or online. However, we can't allow people to use wikipedia and a vehicle from promoting non-notable groups. If a "group" does not have meetings, then they are certainly non-notable and do not belong on this list. -- Craigtalbert 02:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
You are playing God here ...who gives you the right to tell others how to run thier 12 step meetings ...the groups Media Anonymous and Junk Food anonymous (AKA - ANA) have been active since the early '80's and we have meetings but just because we do not publicize our meetings on the web does not mean they do not exist. Especially in the case of Media Anonymous ...we have people who cannot even look at a webpage. These webpages have been around from the very beginning and have not changed much ...we have had a lot o problems from self appointed non believers like those here, that burn books before they are published ... in terms of "theoretical groups" the case of War Addicts Anonymous Might Apply because it is entirely new and we are seeking others to share their experoience strength and hope ...especiallly those who are "freinds and family" of violence and adreneline addicts...we see no reason why this information should be excluded from a public data base just because of the theorizing of some, about the legitimacy of incumbent 12 Step Programs... We would suggest that these people "get off the centre of the universe" and go to a CODA Meeting...or something ...GET A LIFE. -- {{subst:unsigned|74.105.98.223|03:28, 17 August 2007}
- Please mind WP:CIVIL. A good way to solve this problem would be to produce reliable sources documenting your claims. -- Craigtalbert 07:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
As Per the concerns expressed here, we have added the following "Meeting Information" disclaimer to the webpages for the groups :"Anti-Nutrients Anonymous" "Media Anonymous" and "WARANON" :
For Meeting information pls. call (416)-767-3033 - (416)-526-4386 after 6 P.M. or on weekends or join our Email Forum. We are A.lways A.round 24/7 and will respond ASAP ...but we are only human,please allow 24 Hrs. for a reply .Meetings are arranged by appoinment either face to face or by telecommunications channels anywhere, anytime anyone requests the need for one.
Thank You for your Commentary it is appreciated ...we will now again attempt to list our Groups meetings in Wikipedia List for public access to this information -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.105.98.223 (talk • contribs) 03:54, 17 August 2007.
- Please read WP:COI, WP:LINKSPAM, WP:RS, WP:N and WP:V. -- Craigtalbert 07:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
F.Y.I.:
Hi All:
I am also a member of MediaA and ANA and I would like to add the contents of documents in the new "Historical Documents" link on:
and via*:
- This E-journal, part of "Media Free Times" v.32n.1- will be updated later this week at the Library Archives Canada E-Journals collection
The direct link to the PDF file via the server is:
http://web.295.ca/gk/MFTv32n1/ANA_MediaA_History.pdf
Here are the contents list in the file:
Historical Documents of Media Anonymous and Anti-Nutrients Anonymous
Contents
Pages 1-5 : Correspondence with A.A. for permission to use the 12 Steps
6-7: An early poster with meeting information
8: A letter to A.A. describing the relationship between the two programs and how they co-relate
9: The date for the first announcement in the international press
10-12: The first appearance in the mass media, a write up in “Adbusters” magazine
13-14: The first published journals on deposit with the Library Archives Canada and the issue of ISSN numbers for the various publications
15-16: A letter from a member
17: A letter from the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture and Food – Resources and Regulations Dept. 18-19: Correspondence with “The Self Help Clearinghouse of Metropolitan Toronto” and the first published announcements of irregular meetings in their “Blue Book”
20-24: Correspondence with the Canadian Minister of National Health and Welfare, that includes the text of “Sucrose Addicts Anonymous” v.1n.1
25: The front page article in the UK “Sun” asks the question “Addicted to Sugar?” …please note the contradiction: “…has lost all her teeth…is in perfect health…” Many addicts are in “perfect health” until the addiction takes them down.
26-29: A sample of early literature used at the meetings: A cc. of a reprint from “Under the Influence” by J.R. Milam Chapter on “Malnutrition” – Re.: the effects of sucrose and other anti-nutrients on addicts and addiction recovery.
Thank You for all the support and we wish you all a clean and sobre day
Georgie :-)
Hartcomm 23:22, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
oops 1ST post I had sent to main page sorry about that.
HELLO
As a member of Junk Food Anonymous & Media Anonymous I would like to reiterate that we are not a hoax or fraudulent organizations!!!!
Our Domane Names have been listed since the 1980's
Our 12 steps are based on AA's 12 steps and have been accepted/approved by their organization, since June 9th 1989 for "JunkFood" Anonymous ("JFA"), AKA Anti-Nutrients Anonymous, ("ANA"), AKA Sucrose Addicts Anonymous and May 30th 1995 for Media Anonymous
We are listed on other Domaines with not the problems we are having here, i.e.:
We would like to be listed in the Wikipedia "List of 12 Step programs" also. There are many people to reach in our organization, many are on vacation and not that many current members would also be signed in to use your Wikipedia discussion.
As with all 12 step programs we like to reach as many people as need our program, so hopefully you will reconsider our asking to be listed with you.
Thank you
Samdra F JFA/MA member
P.S.:
I have just received an email that we have included many documents in our webpages under the link "Historical Documents - PDF" :
http://web.295.ca/gk/MFTv32n1/ANA_MediaA_History.pdf
That contains scanned documents, including cc. of write ups in public media journals like "Adbusters" magazine, correspondence with Health and Welfare Canada etc. and cc. of posters and Self Help Organization group listings with meeting information etc.
Media Anonymous World Service (t.m.)(inc.) Media Anonymous is a 12 Step Recovery Program for Media Addiction.
Contact Person : George K. Phone : (416)-526-4386 after 6 P.M. & Weekends —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Samdra60 (talk • contribs) 20:48:42, August 19, 2007 (UTC).
12 Step listings on pages that are open to public edit should not be censored
Attn. Graig:
I am not speeking for the ANA and MediaA groups as there are no authorities but as a members. First of all, as much as I can empatize with fellow members in their heated attempts to reason with you, I want to apologise for any upset or misunderstanding this may have caused.
Secondly...it is not our intention to spam or the promote anything ...Wikipedia has created an oportunity to "edit" and we did that and it appears that you are taking it upon yourself, what appears on this end like juvenile behaviour and remove all our postings ...do you have a personal objection to our groups? If so please let us know so that we can respond.
Other members already have posted information in response to all your objections i.e.: in terms of "reliable sources" etc. We have updates of our pages with "Historical Documents -PDF" that includes a cc. of an article in "Adbusters" and the date of an announcement in the International Herald Tribune.
In reply to your request that we list meeting info. we wrote that many members do not use the web and that although meetings are frequent they are not regular as we use telecommunications in a real time bassis and have meetings whenever we need to. The Clock can also a form of media addiction. Having comlied with all of these when we re-enter our data you write that we are spamming.....did you review this material? What is your reply?
If Wikidedia does not want people to edit the pages they should let people know in advance. Instead of presenting themesleves as open to public editing and then having censorship and threats to ban any one who attempts to publish.
I think that there is enough room in cyberspace for a few lines on incumbent 12 step meetings ...you list meetings that are non 12 step oriented ...what objection can you have to groups that are 12 step oriented but are to small to have the main stream media "reliable sources" report on them or that do not have "regular meeting lists".
12 Step programs are not a "Who's Who" of the orthodoxy...our groups are in the main based on the oral tradition and this does not mean that we are in your words a "hoax" or a "fraud".
I think that if you want to practice compassion and do the Buddha thing and like MFT12X12 suggested and "get off the centre of the universe" and see your actions objectively you will have to agree there is probably some real egoism here that is blocking the commonweal...but it is not my business to take your "moral invnetory" here. I am speaking as an ehticist here and in terms of ethical behaviour, I think it is important to keep an open mind and realize that not all 12 Step organizations will fit, or need to fit into your world view to be legitimate and that it is not your mandate to be the censor, in a page that is open to the public to edit ...it is like a lamp post that everyone uses to pin up posters ...is it your job to pull them off? If Wikipedia is a private property and you are the proprietor and you do not wish to have incumbent groups posted that is one thing...then this fact needs to be displayed so as not to mislead the public users.
On the other hand if the page is not open for the public to edit ...a notice of this fact should be placed on it i.e.: this is a private space and we monitor what appears here.
In my opinion if we are talking reasonably about communications protocol, then this is what would be appropriate.
There is 98% junk on the internet and I think that the information that we provide is worthy of a a few bytes of space, in a commons space like Wikipedia is offering here and there must be many other more notable items on the web, that need the efforts of a censor.
If you are sincere about "clean up" and "legitimacy" of our 12 step programs we invite you to become a member and find our for yourself if our "meetings" and our program is for real. If not then we beseach you to stop censoring us, smearing us with these negative lables of "Hoax" and "Fraud" and to have compassion and mutual respect in your affairs towards our organization and it's members.
Thank You for your openness
Unconditional Love and Peace
Hartcomm 15:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not upset, and none of this is personal. I have reviewed the information you have posted, and I don't see anything to establish the notability of your groups. Wikipedia has several guidelines that are intended to keep articles encyclopedic and to prevent misuse, and I believe I am following them. I have cited the ones I feel are relevant when making changes. Reasonable people can disagree, but I believe the guidelines are very clear in this case. -- Craigtalbert 21:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Dear Graig:
"Notable" by Wikipedia Stantdards, or by 12 Step recovery Standards, which is more important?
Be that as it may, I think that you need to retract your statments above that our groups are "Hoax" or a "Fraud" or that we do not exist because we do not list our "Face to Face" meetings and any other prejudicial comment. This is think is misleading, defamatory and inapropriate statements.
We have provided you with the published article from "Adbusters" ...do we need to be interviewed by "Time Life" to qualify as notable.
Also i would like to reiterate my suggestion to create additional new list for "incumbent" or even "theoretical" 12 step groups that do not follow the main stream orthodoxy ...this i would think be in keeping whith your ethical guidlines and on the cutting edge, in terms of contemporary encyclopedeic capabilities, given the nature of the electronic media that can report in real time.
These are just suggestions for the commonweal.
Thnk You for you consideration
Hartcomm 17:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- I never called your groups a hoax. There were a few hoax groups I removed from the list in March, and they were hoaxes. I later removed groups that are non-notable. I'm sorry that you disagree with me. You can put in a Request for Comment and get the opinion of other wikipedia editors on this issue. -- Craigtalbert 20:29, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Narconon paragraph
I posted a "warning" about Narconon at the top of the Nar-Anon article to match the ones in the Narcotics Anonymous and Narconon articles. Having a paragraph dedicated to it here seems a little ham-handed, the current disambiguation information proceeding the other articles is more than adequate. I'm removing removing the paragraph from this article. - Craigtalbert 10:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Gam Anon
Hello, I do not see GamAnon listed under 12 step programs. GamAnon is similiar to AlAnon as it is for any person that has been affected by the gambling problem. Its a very important and crucial program to list. Please include this in your listings. Thank you very much, Hugnkiss22. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hugnkiss22 (talk • contribs) 18:30, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- I included GamAnon. I was on the fence about what friends/family auxiliary groups to put on the list, since the less notable ones are usually mentioned in the articles of the "primary" organization. That was good enough reason to avoid making a decision about it. -- Craigtalbert 19:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
