Talk:List of transgender people

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• Removed all pre-2006 and unsigned stuff, plus one unanswered rant from January 2006 to /Archive_01 -- 06:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

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Contents 1 Move this article 2 Transgender vs. transsexual and others 3 Entry definitions too vague 4 Dana Moran 5 Section titles 6 Mike Hernandez 7 Queen Christina? 8 Grayson Perry 9 David Reimer 10 my edits 11 Living Musicians? 12 Requested move 12.1 Survey 12.2 Discussion 13 Larry (Linda) Wachowski is not in the list 14 Reorganization 15 Tables 16 Bands or groups? 17 Barry Humphries

[edit] Move this article

When I moved stuff (doesn't the page look clean now ;-) I found somebody had mentioned that "transgender" vs. "transgendered" sometime in 2004. (" When we say "People who have been transgendered", who "transgendered" them? Ortolan88") I'd like to bring this up again; I personally think that this article should be a List of transgender people, without the obnoxious "-ed" at the end. Transgender was coined as an adjective, and I don't really think we say "homosexualed", or "lesbianed" or even "transsexualed", either. -- AlexR 07:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

This article and List of transgender people had merge tags on them (and had for a while), directing toward this article, so I merged them a few weeks ago. This article was, far and away, the more complete of the two; there was very little actual merging that I had to do. I guess I probably should have merged/redirected the other way, huh? Personally, to have the -ed or not, it doesn't make any difference to me, but then I apparently don't take quite as hard a line WRT terminology as it seems a lot of transpeople do. — Wwagner 17:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

What's "WRT"? And what does my question have to do with the fact that I am transgender? I merely suggest putting the article under a title I think is a lot better, for the reason stated. That was no criticism of your action or anything, I don't think I ever saw the List of transgender people at all. -- 18:22, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

My comment was not meant as any kind of attack. I'm not out to get the trans community or anybody in it - I'm trans too. But to return to the name change topic, I guess put me down for an abstain due to no preference. Oh, and WRT is "with respect to". — Wwagner 21:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

We really need to work on our communication - neither was I intending to insult or attack (or anything) you, nor you me. Which is kinda nice ;-) I also don't really take a hard line here, if I would, I would have moved the article. Guess we need a few more votes then ;-) -- AlexR 23:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I've heard this objection to transgendered before; I say go ahead and move the page, as it seems you are not the only one bothered by it. However, personally I don't have any problem with the -ed, and think the "lesbianed' analogy is a wilful misreading of English grammar. "-ed" can serve a few different gramatical funcitons, one of which is simple past tense for a verb, as in "who transgendered them?", which relies on an understanding of "to transgender" as a verb, and therefore "transgendered" as a past participle. I believe people see "to transgender" as a verb about as readily as they see "to lesbian" as one — i.e. not very much. A better analogy is "the brown-haired woman"; do we ask "who brown-haired her"? A "brown-hair woman" is considered non-standard. Some compound adjectives have multiple standard forms: eg "a v-neck jumper" or "v-necked jumper". The same can be said for "an intersex/intersexed/intersexual person", and (I propose) a transgender/transgendered person. Google finds 106,000 hits for "transgendered person" and 78,400 for "transgender person"; interestingly, the ratio is reversed for "transgender people" (810,000) and "transgendered people" (444,000). ntennis 03:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transgender vs. transsexual and others

I saw that somebody had replaced a lot of "transsexual", "transwoman", "transmen" with "transgendered". It already is reverted, but reminded me whether we are really certain, in all cases where "transsexual" is used, whether "transsexual" is really the correct description (might concern other descriptions as well). I noticed for example:

• Kate Bornstein, transsexual/gendered author, playwright, performance artist and gender theorist
  • Given that on Kate's site she uses gender-neutral pronouns for hirself, I think it is fairly safe to say that "transsexual" is plainly wrong
• Mara Keisling, transsexual/gendered, founder of the National Center for Transgender Equality. Key leader in passing several laws protecting transgender people. www.nctequality.org
  • The website mentioned says: "Mara is a transgender-identified woman" [1]

So while changing "transwoman" and "transmen" to "transgendered" hardly did the article any service, some of the changes to "transgender" (forget that obnoxious -ed) seemed to have been correct. I suspect some more of the "transsexual" attributions are not quite correct, either. So I suggest we check out those again. -- AlexR 07:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Entry definitions too vague

The entry defines anyone who is: transgender, transsexual, genderqueer, androgynous, cross-dressers, transvestites, drag queens, drag kings, or hermaphroditic. Isn't that a bit unfocused? Androgynous and drag queens and trangender individual are all over the board. One could count RuPaul Charles, Ziggy Stardust, Placebo's Brian Molko and Alexis Arquette as all valid additions. I would never consider any of these people truly "transgender." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Navstar (talk • contribs) 11 May 2006

First of all, kindly sign your entries next time. Second, what now? No more "truly transsexual" wars, but now the brand new "truly transgender" ones? And you misquote -- what you list is a list of possible self-identifications, but the definition given is "people whose gender identity differs from the gender they were assigned" which most obviously is transgender. So your point was? -- AlexR 23:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a distinct difference between a person who identifies as transgender vs. a person who performs gender drag. I plan to remove all entries that, in their detail, designate the entered person as "Drag queen". Transgenderism, or gender dysphoria, is a mental condition that can have physical manifestations (dressing the way one/society perceives the lived gender to, taking hormones, election of gender reassignment via surgery-- which falls into the transsexual classification). But a person (like Shirley Q. Liquor, for instance) who is a man who dresses in drag for entertainment's sake, or for sexual pleasure, and not because it's a dire lifestyle and physical/mental health choice is NOT transgender. They are then "drag _______" or transvestites. I'm not an expert, but I lived with about 6 transgendered people at one time, and I got a crash course in the technicalities of living as a transgender person. Folks really need to do their research.--James gang

Erm, you've confused your terminology - transgenderism is not gender dysphoria. That's transsexualism. Transgenderism is a broad catchall group, which includes, as well as transsexuals, drag queens, crossdressers, and a host of similar groups. This is why they're on this list. Rebecca 03:19, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you SURE about that?

Gender identity disorder From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Gender dysphoria)

Gender identity disorder, as identified by psychologists and medical doctors, is a condition in which a person has been assigned one gender (usually at birth on the basis of their sex, but compare intersexuality), but identifies as belonging to another gender, or does not conform with the gender role their respective society prescribes to them. It is a psychiatric term for what is widely known by terms like transsexuality, transgender and (subject to debate, but full-fledged GID is present in at least some cases of) transvestism or cross-dressing.

This feeling is usually reported as "having always been there", although in some cases, it seems to appear in adolescence or even in adulthood, and it has been reported by some as intensifying over time. Since many cultures strongly disapprove of cross-gender behaviour, it often results in significant problems for those affected, and sometimes for their close friends and family members as well. In many cases, discomfort is also reported as stemming from the feeling that one's body is "wrong" or meant to be different.

See also: List of transgender-related topics

...transgenderism + gender dysphoria could manifest physically as transsexualism. The problem of including "drag" and "cross-dressing" without limits into this discussion is that the performative impulse is not rooted in "settling a score" within oneself about gender. In the case of cross-dressing, there is likely no motivation to physically change one's gender, or to live as the opposite gender, but instead, there being satisfaction in just dressing the part. There may be a fetishistic interest in dressing opposite. Or, for entertainment's sake. I doubt that transgender folks would want to have their life choice lumped in with those of folks who entertain others as caricatures of the opposite sex, etc. blah blah blah.--James gang

[edit] Dana Moran

Is there a source about this person? I can't find anything about him/her on Google. --D-Day^{(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?}) 21:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section titles

It appears that the section titles need a little work; we seem to be picking up a lot of living individuals, which belong in "Living individuals" of course, in the "20th and 21st century individuals" section. It's probably just people not actually reading all of the section titles before they post (Hanlon's razor at work here), but having to move all the misplaced entries, well, it shouldn't have to happen. I have added some comments in the markup, but half the time people don't read those either. We should probably rename the 20th/21st section to something else, to denote that the people in that section are dead, but I'm not sure what it should be. "Deceased transpeople"? "Deceased individuals"? "Past transpeople"? Those are just off the top of my head, but none of them sounds very good. — Wwagner 05:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's another thought: why don't we just put everybody in one list, and include the birth year (and death year, if dead) for each entry? That's not unlike the lists of birth and death dates in each year article (see 1962, for a random example). And some of the descriptions are a little out of hand in this list; the nationality and a few of the major occupations of the person is enough. Putting the subject's life story, however abbreviated, and all their abilities, no matter how minor, is something for the article on that person, not this list. Each person's article is a mere click away, so there's no need to replicate a bunch of it here. Here are a few examples, a couple from each of the major sections of real people:

• Calpernia Addams (1971-) American author, actress, and activist
• Herculine Barbin (1838-1868) French hermaphrodite
• Danielle Bunten Berry (1949-1998) American game designer and programmer
• Chevalier d'Eon (1728-1810) French diplomat
• Billy Tipton (1914-1989) American jazz musician
• Stephen Whittle (1955-) British lawyer

The non-list blurb at the start of Earlier historical individuals can be moved to the top and reworked a bit, to keep that content. Comments, please? — Wwagner 00:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mike Hernandez

The link that you have to Mike Hernandez is wrong. You've linked an LA city councilman who I can assure you is not the person you refer to.

How do I know this?

I happen to be the Mike Hernandez in question - please see http://www.otherbear.com

Thanks!

[edit] Queen Christina?

I will only say that I find it an excessively slender thread that connects Queen Christina in any shape or form to our modern concept of transgendered people. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 13:05, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grayson Perry

Grayson Perry is surely a transvestite and not a transsexual? Haydn01 15:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

That's the impression his article seems to give. --Kiranna 07:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, and your point is...? There are other cross-dressers on this list as well. There are more facets of transgendered behaviour than just transsexuality. — Wwagner 17:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Transgender describes fetishtic transvestites, transsexuals and cross-dressers, as well transgenderists, androgynists, gender chameleons and anything in between - it's a bit of a catch-all term, I'm afraid.

I suppose the real point is should there be a List of transsexual people as oppsed to transgender.

Cheers Lwollert 08:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] David Reimer

Wikipedia has an article on David Reimer, aka John/Joan, a famous case of failed infant gender reassignment after a botched circumcision destroyed his penis. I think that there should be a link to that page somewhere on this one. Mang 23:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Why? He was born as a man, identified as a man, and ended his life as a man. Rebecca 01:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

David reimer would not have qualified under DSM-IV criteria for transsexualism, as he had a concurrent intersex condition - a condition that occured through medical error (circuscision error) followed up with medical mismanagement (although, at the time, John Money was well respected, and thought he was doing the right thing.)

So no, David doesn't belong here (poor man :( ) Lwollert 08:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] my edits

oops, ignore me. I apparantly was wrong about my terminology. Reverting myself. Kuronue 01:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Living Musicians?

Do we really need this category? Lwollert 01:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

It looked like vandalism, so I reverted it. Somebody who doesn't like Nickelback's lead singer, I guess. — Wwagner 01:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Larry (Linda) Wachowski is not in the list

we should add that name to the list, it has already been confirmed, and there are a lot of reliable soucres which states that Larry wachowski is now a transsexual named Linda Wachowski. Can I add the name to the list? check my youtube´s videos!!!!!!!!!!! just put raidentheninja on the search bar on youtube 04:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Until it's confirmed by Wachowski, it is not appropriate. As far as i can see from a fairly basic Search it's still rumors and gossip - and has been since 2003. Cheers! Lauren^♫/∆ 07:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

i though it was already confirmed, lol, maybe i´ll have to search more.

anyway, i´ll stay alert about wachowski and look for more info, ok? :-)check my youtube´s videos!!!!!!!!!!! just put raidentheninja on the search bar on youtube 23:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Found something http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wachowsky#Transgender_claims

We should add her i think—Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.192.3.133 (talk) 00:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a valid source for citation. Furthermore, all the external articles linked from Wachowski brothers involving Larry's supposed transition are collections of hearsay and speculation. Until we see some sort of press release, or Wachowski posting something hirself, it's not appropriate. — Wwagner 05:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganization

I've been toying around with a reorganization of this list of people; the way they're divided up now seems kinda artificial. I think we can streamline the list quite a bit by combining all the real people into one list, and have the birth (and death) years listed for each person. The fictional folks have a couple of other articles where they can be listed, most particularly Transgender in film and television and Cross-dressing in film and television - a lot of the fictional people here are already in those articles, and can probably just be removed from this list. The literature, mythology, and video game transfolk should probably go to (an)other article(s) as well, but I'm not really sure where. A new article could always be created, say Transgender in literature; the currently-existent Transgender publications doesn't quite work for that kind of information. Please take a look at the test page I've been working on and let me know what you think. — Wwagner 04:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. I disagree with the deletion of the "fictional" section though - but perhaps it would be better to merge those articles (which are essentially lists, not proper articles) into this one? THe other difference, is this list deals with "people" whereas the other articles talk about the "films" more than people.

Cheers! Lauren^♫/∆ 22:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I agree on the focus of those other articles, though the focus can certainly be, shall we say "redirected". :) The reason I was thinking that a split would be more practical than a merge, is that this article seems to be two lists in one right now. The list of fictional people feels kludged on to me. Don't get me wrong: I definitely think that it's useful and informative to have those fictional people listed, but I'm just not sure that this article is the best place for it. I've got a couple other ideas for arrangements of the fictitious people; I'll toy with them when I get a chance later tonight. And you (or anybody else) are certainly welcome to mess with that sandbox page if you like; that's what it's there for. — Wwagner 23:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

If you start reorganizing this, perhaps you could also start with sourcing some entries, since this list is almost completely unsourced. See also WP:BLP. Garion96 (talk) 21:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Started referencing, pending reorganising, at User:Lwollert/Sandbox/List of transgender people - feel free to edit there. Along the way, I seem to be sorting out a lot of the bio pages as well, when hunting reasonable citations. It's amazing how much is "General knowledge" but not actually written down somewhere (I'm thinking of Allenina) Cheers! Lauren^♫/∆ 03:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Progress has been good so far: over 120 references have been found between Wwagner and I (mostly er). It's at User:Wwagner/sandbox2. Cheers! Lauren^♫/∆ 04:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Lauren and I have finished up with the rework and referencing of this article. Our version is at User:Wwagner/sandbox2. If nobody's got any objections, I'd like to replace the current main article with the reworked version in a couple days. — Wwagner 00:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tables

Wow. Last I checked this list it was awful - it looks great now. Does anyone object if we convert this to table format and put pictures down the side per the LGB lists? And has anyone gone through our transgendered categories and added all the people there? DevAlt 14:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't say that I'm terribly excited by the layout of the rest of the LGB lists of people. They seem awfully busy and cluttered to my eye. I am a big proponent of the KISS principle. And I don't think anybody's gone through all (any?) the trans cats for possible additions. Sounds like a job I can do in my copious spare time. :) — Wwagner 23:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Two people who need to be added to this list: Barbara Amesbury and Patricia Araujo. And now I've listed them here, I can remove them from the to be sorted list... Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:13, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

And Jeanne Baré. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 11:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Added Amesbury and Baré. Can't find a source for Araujo. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 16:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

More:

1. Rafaelly Carneiro
2. Albert Cashier
3. Camilla de Castro
4. Candis Cayne
5. Charlotte Charke
6. Hadden Clark
7. Leslie Cochran
8. Carmen Cruz
9. Paul Denyer
10. Robert Eads
11. Bülent Ersoy
12. Jamie Fenton
13. Danielle Foxxx
14. Marie France
15. Francis García
16. Delisa Newton
17. Sister Paula Nielsen
18. Kaúxuma Núpika
19. Abubakar Hamza
20. Rebecca Heineman
21. Kananda Hickman
22. Diana Hignutt
23. Charlotte von Mahlsdorf
24. Robert Koselik

- Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 18:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bands or groups?

There was the recent addition of Lady (group) to this list. While they're certainly trans, and are certainly notable as a group, and each of the members would individually belong in this list (provided notability, etc.), do they belong here collectively? My gut feeling is 'no', but I'd like to hear what others have to say about it. Do other List of <blah> people articles have groups in them? — Wwagner 00:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Barry Humphries

Barry Humphries is not transgender/transexual -- he is a comedian, one of whose characters is the fictitious Dame Edna -- this does not mean he is transgender. Propose to delete him from this list. --ukexpat 14:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. We do include crossdressers and drag queens on this list, and I'd say that doing comedy in drag is close enough to doing cabaret performances in drag as makes no real difference - they're performace arts, while crossdressed. Similarly, Flip Wilson's Geraldine Jones persona is in this list, though in the film and tv section. — Wwagner 17:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

OK so in that case the list should include every single male comedian or actor who has performed in a female role, including all the Monty Python team, Ronnie Barker, Ronnie Corbett, Les Dawson and countless others.--ukexpat 20:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)